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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:27 PM
Original message
So... NOW WE RAPE CHILDREN???
Edited on Sun Jun-20-04 05:59 PM by BeHereNow
I am FURIOUS! FUCKING FURIOUS!
I am furious because this happened, and I am furious that
the Times refer to these teenagers as "women."
A seventeen year old is a CHILD!
I know, I have one! An eighteen year old is a CHILD!
Not a woman. Perhaps biologically a "woman" but certainly,
and please do consider the Muslim family and culture,
A CHILD. GOD DAMNED the US media for their complicity
in white washing these war crimes!
PLEASE, if you do NOTHING else today- write to the Times
and BALLAST them for their casual reporting of this crime.
WE at DU KNOW what the fuckers in Dyncorp did to the
children in the Bosnia/Serbian fiasco.
SOMEONE tell me what these mercenary pedophiles
expected to learn from these children in the middle of the
night? And on our TAX DOLLARS!
WHERE IS THE FUCKING OUTRAGE???

BHN
On edit- corrected link to Times
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,110104...

"In a Feb. 21 statement to Taguba, Lieut. Colonel Steven L. Jordan,
former head of the Abu Ghraib interrogation center, said he
had received reports "that there were members of the MI
community that had come over and done a late-night
interrogation of two female detainees" last October.

According to a statement by Jordan's boss, Colonel Thomas
Pappas, three interrogators were later cited for violations of
military law in their handling of the two females, ages 17 and 18.
Senate Armed Services Committee investigators are probing
whether the two women were sexually abused.
The Pentagon declined to comment."

"DECLINED TO COMMENT?" "DECLINED TO COMMENT??"
NOT AN OPTION! DO YOU HEAR ME?
NOT AN OPTION!
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
LBN Link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't like that they call it sexual abuse
It's rape. Rape is rape.

Sexual abuse is like grabbing a woman's ass.

Rape is rape.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I am FROTHING at the mouth-
A rabid DOG I tell you!
I want accountability.
I want justice.
I want these fuckers to FRY in HELL!
When you think of the mores and religious values
instilled in these children and what they, without doubt,
suffered in this so called "interrogation" how can you
live with yourself knowing YOU paid for it to happen!
I CAN'T. As a mother, I simply CAN'T!!!
I have to get out of this country.
BHN
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I don't want them to fry
Edited on Sun Jun-20-04 05:37 PM by Magic Rat
I think they should spend a month in an Iraqi prison with other Iraqi prisoners, personally.

on edit - preferably next to an inmate with the arabic equivilent of the name 'Bubba' ;)
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. You mean sort of an Ali Bubba?
???
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. LOL
yeah, something like that :D
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
56. We have your back.
S and D, anarchy1999

This is alot for all of us to take. Thank you, dear BHN, for being as outspoken as you are. It all needs to be said. Love you lots.
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Fone Book Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #56
61. Fo Sho! n/t
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. This is the first I heard of this.
Edited on Sun Jun-20-04 05:32 PM by brainshrub
I'm stunned.

ON EDIT: How far down does this hole go? This is pathetic.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. Please email this article to editors and other media people
Please email this article to editors and other media people to spread awareness.
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Fear Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. outraged -> to fuel the outrage even more, the following article
Edited on Sun Jun-20-04 05:35 PM by Fear
Colonial Violence Against Women in Iraq
Posted June 1, 2004 thepeoplesvoice.org

By: Ghali Hassan

"Great day for the people in Iraq, torture chambers and rape rooms are shut down". Colin Powell, U.S. Secretary of State, 08 March 2004.

In one of the most secular countries in the Arab world, where women were until recently a visible and integrated part of public life, females have all but disappeared. The lawlessness, brought by the occupation forces into Iraq, is felt disproportionately by young women and girls who have yet to finish their education. This is the "freedom" George W. Bush and his cabal brought to the Iraqi people.

Immediately after the invasion and occupation of Iraq, the U.S. army failed to establish effective authority and security of their own. And because of the power vacuum that developed when the Iraqi regime collapsed, there was a complete breakdown of law and order encouraged by the invading forces. According to Amnesty International, "violence against women and girls has sharply increased in Iraq compared to the time before last year's war". Under the U.S.-British occupation, Iraqi women faced arrest; torture, including rape; and even execution simply because their husbands or male relatives were sought by the occupation forces" <1>. Women detainees and Iraqi Prisoners of War (POWs) arrested without charge by the occupying forces are denied humane treatment and rights under the Geneva Conventions and International laws. So far, only Saddam Hussein has been granted "prisoner of war" status by the United States.

Under international humanitarian law, the occupying forces have a responsibility to guarantee the "safety of the civilian population in Iraq". They have an obligation to maintain and restore public order and to provide food, medical care and relief assistance. So far, they have failed in their duties. The occupying forces must provide effective protection, investigate and punish all perpetrators of violence against women.

<snip>

more......

http://liberty.hypermart.net/voices/2004/print/Colonial...
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. Saddam's rape rooms
Open under new management.

In that culture, what is their fate now? Scumbags!
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. The outrage is here my friend
Edited on Sun Jun-20-04 05:36 PM by Tinoire
but sometimes I'm just past outrage and straight to heart-break.

Such abuses are not forgotten by the victims. Still today, the Germans speak of what the Russians did to them when they got there. The French speak of what the Germans did to them. The Haitians still speak of what the Americans did to them in 1920.

We need to leave Iraq now.

I can not tell you of the rage that would be in my heart if those were my children, nieces, sisters or cousins.

On edit: :hug: and yes I will write along with you. This story must not die.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. DOD investigates itself!
Edited on Sun Jun-20-04 05:43 PM by Disturbed
What next? Corupt Police Depts investigating themselves? Organized crime investigating themselves?

War Crimes. A few days ago Rumsfailed admitted publicly that he had violated the Geneva Convention. Secret detainees and secret prison camps. Will Rumsfailed be charged with any crime?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Why not lol? Corporations already "police" themselves
It's scandalous is all I can say. Court proceedings are only for the little guy (that's you and me) ;).
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
9. "cited for violations???"
WHAT THE HELL does THAT mean???
Is that like getting a traffic ticket?
Cited? Cited? CITED?
Pay a fine and be turned loose on the streets
of America?
I want them HANGED for crimes against humanity!
They have DESTOYED the lives of these, and who
knows how many other, CHILDREN.
GOD DAMN THEM!
DAMN THEM TO HELL!
BHN
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. They should be prosecuted, not "cited." nt
nt
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Fear Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. Drop 'm off in the Hague I'd say, force the US to sign the ICC
Quite frankly, the representatives of the US (which are the political system / and the army as a part of it) are TRULY making this a dangerous world for Americans to live in right now. Retaliations CAN/COULD/ARE arise from all of this.

Action really needs to be taken by the people / show that the US people are NOT behind these actions and condemn every bit of it.

Wasn't Bush smart not to sign the ICC / throwing it off


US blocks aid over ICC row
The United States has suspended over $47m in military aid to 35 countries that have not signed deals to grant American soldiers immunity from prosecution for war crimes.
The US does not recognise the ICC, saying its forces could be subjected to politically-motivated prosecution.

One country which is particularly affected in Colombia, which receives over $500m a year in US military assistance.

The new court, based in The Hague in the Netherlands, can try individuals for war crimes committed after 1 July anywhere in the world.
<snip>
MORE....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3035296.stm

U.S. Announces Intent Not to Ratify International Criminal Court Treaty
By Curtis A. Bradley
May 2002

On May 6, 2002, the Bush Administration announced that the United States does not intend to become a party to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. John Bolton, the Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security, sent a letter to Kofi Annan, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, stating that the United States does not intend to become a party to the treaty, and that, ccordingly, the United States has no legal obligations arising from its signature on December 31, 2000. <1> In a press briefing the same day, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld explained that the Administration had a number of serious objections to the among them, the lack of adequate checks and balances on powers of the prosecutor and judges; the dilution of the U.N. Security Councils authority over international criminal prosecutions; and the lack of any effective mechanism to prevent politicized prosecutions of American service members and officials. <2> Marc Grossman, Under Secretary for Political Affairs, expressed additional concerns about the treaty in a speech to the Center for Strategic and International Studies. <3>

<SNIP>

Contrary to some press reports, the Bush Administration, in announcing its intent not to ratify the Rome Statute, did not renounce the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties. Although the United States has not ratified the Vienna Convention, US officials have often indicated that they accept at least much of the Convention as reflecting binding customary international law. <7> Moreover, Mr. Boltons contention that the Administrations announcement would mean that the United States has no legal obligations arising from its signature appears to have been an implicit reference to the object and purpose requirement in Article 18 of the Vienna Convention. Of course, it is open to question whether Mr. Boltons statement reflected an acceptance of Article 18 or merely an abundance of caution on the part of the Administration. Under either interpretation, however, the statement was not a renunciation of the Vienna Convention. Finally, in Mr. Grossmans remarks to the Center for Strategic and International Studies, he stated that the Administrations actions were consistent with the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties. As discussed above, this statement appears to be correct.

<SNIP>

MORE......

http://www.asil.org/insights/insigh87.htm


http://www.icc-cpi.int/
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. "two women were sexually abused"
Don't they mean two teenaged girls were raped/sexually assaulted?
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. That's what I'm talking about!
HOW DARE the fucking Times dumb this down!
WHY, and I ask any reasonable person this question:
WHY would these men feel the need to "interrogate"
two civilian teenagers late at night?
ANSWER ME YOU FUCKING TWISTED LURKING FREEPERS.
DO YOU HAVE DAUGHTERS? IF SO....
HOW CAN YOU CONTINUE TO JUSTIFY THESE CRIMES?
HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF YOUR DAUGHTERS WERE THE
VICTIMS OF THESE MEN??? HUH? HUH? HUH?

TELL ME! I DARE YOU TO VENTURE BEYOND YOUR
LURKING COWARDLY SLIME BRAINS AND TYPE
ON YOUR HATE MONGERING KEYBOARDS TO ANSWER ME!

BHN
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. No... They mean it was just a harmless frat prank
You know... kids having a little fun as Lynndie's mother put it.


ARRRGGGH!
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. harmless fun
:grr: a part of "our way of life"
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
51. Boys will be boys
:puke:

There is no punishment good enough for stealing someone's humanity like that! Those people should be turned over to the Iraqis to pay for their crimes under Muslim sharia law.

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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #51
64. Like a panty raid. Yeah, that's it. That's all.
Nothing to see here; move away from the frat house.

:argh:

Hekate
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disinfo_guy Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. Why isn't Rumsfeld behind bars? Can anyone explain why that is?
I'd sure like to know.

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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
46. HE is the one supervising the investigation. And I saw a few days
ago here in DU that they have already determined than nobody in the higher ranks is involved in the torture scandal. CASE CLOSED. It is only the low-lifer soldiers that did this. Shame on them.

I have never seen so many institutions policing themselves as I have seen in the USA.... for the happiness of the misadministration.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #46
80. Where's Ken Starr? I think the country needs him....
...70 Million $$$ spent investigating a Blow Job....

Where is a "special" independent investigator to investigate these crimes?

Oh yeah, I guess in these "dire" times financially this kind of investigation would cost the country 70 Billion and we can't take that money away from the Bombs and Halliburton...

:grr:
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complain jane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
17. The page is gone n/t
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. WHICH page?
The Times page or the DU link?
If it is the Times page, perhaps it is due to the
unanticipated RAGE of the people like me and you.
I will not let this die...they have gone far too far.
Heads must roll over this.
There is NO way the captains did not know,
and WHO are they responsible to???
Enough is enough and I have had ENOUGH.
BHN
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. TIMES LINK HERE:
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Refusing funds?
"The United States has suspended over $47m in military aid to 35 countries that have not signed deals to grant American soldiers immunity from prosecution for war crimes."

How does this Right Wing Dictatorship get away with this?

Answer: No one can stop BushCo from doing anything they do.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
79. Anyone have a list of the countries that have refused the immunity for US?
...Curious...they would be countries I'd happily and proudly thank....
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #79
87. Here's the Security Council status:
Debate on Washington's request, which appears to have the support of Angola, Britain, the Philippines, and Russia, is expected to begin this week, probably Thursday. To date, however, Benin, Brazil, Chile, China, France, Germany, and Spain have indicated they intend to abstain.
Seven abstentions would kill the resolution.

Romania has said it is prepared to abstain unless its vote is responsible for defeating the U.S. resolution, according to the Washington Post, while Algeria and Pakistan have not yet tipped their hands, although the latter is considered more likely to side with Washington.


http://www.antiwar.com/lobe/?articleid=2851
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Here is the correct link to Time Magazine article
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. I already sent the article to my Senator
and have been demanding an accounting for the crimes that have been committed.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #29
53. We should all email the Time Mag. article to our Representatives (nt)
nt
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SupportRapeVictims Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
26. THANK YOU
!!!!
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Welcome to DU!
And, you are welcome.
Sounds like, by your DU name and all, that
you know about that of which I am ranting...
I tell you, I can not see straight right now!
I am so ANGRY about this two fold crime.
BHN
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HippieCowgirl Donating Member (242 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
28. Weren't we supposed to be the liberators?
Saving the citizens of Iraq from Saddam's rape rooms? Looks like all we did was change the paint on the walls and move in.

I'm sick because the attitude is that it's no big deal because it's just women being raped, but it went into more detail about men being raped. Women don't matter, apparently. It's that "well, them's the breaks" attitude of our bullshit macho culture.

Bastards.


<i>aside</i><br>
I don't know if anyone else pointed this out, but our western culture forces "child" status on a woman of 17 or 18. The rest of the known world treats a young woman of this age as a full adult, generally from the onset of menses. I can understand being upset at raping captive women, but calling them "children" is absurd.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Welcome to DU
Edited on Sun Jun-20-04 06:41 PM by BeHereNow
However, I don't think calling them children is absurd- especially
if you are familiar with the family values of the culture.
Unlike the pimping parents in America who think encouraging
their children to dress and flaunt their sexuality like a
hooker on Sunset Blvd, is normal, the Muslim families of the
ME have a RADICALLY different view of the sanctity of their
children and families. Modesty, not madness is the norm.
However you are correct about the indifference of our
incredibly twisted society and its view of sexual violence.
BHN
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. BTW...I am curious to know:
Edited on Sun Jun-20-04 07:00 PM by BeHereNow
Do you have children?
I do, and unlike many of the teenagers in America,
my daughter dresses modestly, is a virgin and
would be traumatized beyond recognition by such
treatment. As a "western" mom, I can not begin
to imagine the inconsolable grief the parents of these
teenagers must feel, perhaps because I live in a sexually twisted and
pornographic culture, where as they live in an extremely
modest and respectful one.
Hard to imagine how deeply devastating this is to them
even from a mother's view, in that our culture is so
very depraved, I don't really have a measuring stick
as to how injurious this is to a family in the ME, although I know
it from my own feelings of protectiveness of my own child, and
yes, despite her sexual developement, she is in so many ways,
a CHILD even though our culture expects otherwise.
Not so in the ME, so how can I begin to comprehend the
pain they must feel...because I too, have been desensitized
by our depraved society.
In short, my heart is breaking for them, because despite my limited and therefore
full comprehension of their mores, I know enough to
know this is a fate worse than death for them.

BHN
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. rape not sexual assault
Edited on Sun Jun-20-04 07:48 PM by Djinn
and I understand why you're pissed at the terms used here but I'd also say 17/18 year olds aren't children - to me though that differentiation is compleetly irrelevant, a 17 year old is not neccesarily more traumatised by getting raped than a 25 year old.

As for the views on this in the Middle East I think you're genralising - Iraq was/is quite different to much of the middle east in that women can work (including int he armed services) and things likt alcohol were legal and widely accepted. In MANY countries in the Middle East (Saudi, Yemen for example) a woman would most likely be married with a couple of kids at 17 so to say that they are viewed as "children" throughout the middle east is a bit erroneous.

That said rape is rape regardless of age/gender/sexuality etc. Unfortunatly it's been seen as a weapon of war for a very long time
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. In our culture .... which is where WE were reared ...
Edited on Sun Jun-20-04 06:58 PM by Trajan
17 is legally a CHILD ! ....

HOW is calling a 17 year old a 'child', when our society identifies them thusly, "absurd" ? ...

I dont care WHAT the fuck the rest of the world does: it ISNT 'absurd' to refer to our own set of laws to explain our position ...
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
30. We're running this as a truthout Extra tonight
:grr:
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. GOOD ON YOU!
That is EXCELLENT news WP.
BHN
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Hi Will Pitt
How about one of the TO writers tackling the topic of DOD investigating itself?
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
35. Please email this article to your Senators and Rep., and ask
Please email this article to your Senators and Rep., and ask them to investigate the torture.

Please also ask them to create a new agency to protect the human rights of EVERY prisoner in US custody, so that this never happens again.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. I will, but frankly...
Given the date on the original reporting of the incident,
do you really think they will do one thing differently?
Sorry, I am so beyond depressed.
BHN :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. Don't doubt for a moment that our voices HAVE made a difference.
We may not be able to see or touch or feel the difference we make,...but,...we are a very relevant influence!!! NEVER doubt that.

I, too, am sad, BHN :cry:

Focusing my feelings of sadness and anger, worry and frustration into action that I KNOW makes a difference,...keeps my heart beating, my mind thinking, and my hope alive.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #37
54. another approach: lawsuit.
The Center for Constitutional Rights has filed a lawsuit against contractors involved in the torture.

That doesn't relate to this particular case, in which soldiers committed the torture, but if you want to make a small donation to CCR, they're at:
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/home.asp

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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
52. Here's the response from
Senator Allard to my email:

Thank you for contacting my office to express your concern about the
treatment of Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison outside of Baghdad.

When the United States became engaged in Iraq we undertook the
responsibility of providing the Iraqi people with human rights they had
not previously enjoyed. This responsibility extends to all Iraqi people,
including detainees.

The actions of the soldiers implicated in the military's investigation are
deplorable and beyond reproach. They do not represent the values we as
Americans hold dear, nor do they do provide a fair representation of our
troops. With very few exceptions, U.S. soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan
have served our country and the people of these nations with dignity and
honor.
I was pleased that the Army took steps several months ago to begin
addressing this through investigation. As you may know, the process of
punishment has already begun - of the six individuals indicated in this
incident in March, three have been recommended for court martial trials.
As this is an ongoing investigation, I anticipate more charges will be
brought against individuals involved.

I have seen no evidence that would indicate that the Secretary of Defense
needed to resign. Therefore, I remain supportive of Secretary Rumsfeld
and the job he has done as Secretary of Defense.

Please be assured that I will continue my vigilance in this matter and
will work to prevent it from happening again in Iraq or any other country
where the U.S. is engaged.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #52
60. No evidence that Rumsfeld should resign?
Rumsefeld admitting hiding prisoenrs from the Red Cross.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
38. Responsibility and complicity
Edited on Sun Jun-20-04 07:27 PM by Swamp_Rat
I hereby hold George W. Bush personally responsible for rape, murder, and torture of both children and adults. This charge is equally applied to every member of his cabinet.

I hereby hold those Senators, Representatives, religious leaders, oil barons, arms dealers, CEOs, journalists and American citizens who agreed to this adventure, complicit and therefore guilty of crimes against humanity.

George W. Bush is guilty of these crimes against humanity, from which there is no redemption. His appointment by the U.S. Supreme Court as President* is officially null and void, and ANY action taken from this (Father's) day forward will be counted individually as a capital offense.

George W. Bush, at this time you are ordered to direct yourself to the nearest Police precinct for immediate incarceration.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. AMEN! Swamp Rat and...
Welcome to DU!
May I add this to your post:
ALL so called "x-tians" and "patriots" who have supported
this illegal invasion and occupation must now turn
themselves in as well!
BHN
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. Thank you
... and yes, please add these cretins to the list.

This national nightmare would be over if most Americans would collectively decide to say: "It is over George Bush. You are done."

We can do this.

We finally have some inroads in some areas of corporate media and radio shows like Air America (night birds should listen to Ray Taliaferro on KGO AM San Francisco - he is the tireless "passionate patriot"), and numerous other outlets like MoveOn and Truthout. We must not let up the pressure one iota!

We can change the tenor of the dialectic here in America if we, during every encounter with another citizen, speak frankly about Bush as a war criminal. If the auditor huffs and puffs angrily, speak to them dispassionately as if no personal insult was intended, but imply that it is indeed a fact that Bush is a war criminal.

United we stand, divided we fall.
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TolstoyAndy Donating Member (493 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
65. re: responsibility + complicity: Kerry
All Senators who voted to abrogate the Constitution are guilty of all the crimes committed by every "bad apple" in Iraq.

Kerry, as a Vietnam vet who has seen what soldiers will do when set loose, is especially guilty.

He shamed his party, he has no solution, and his only excuse is "I trusted the resident to come back and ask us again"?

Fuck You, Kerry. I hold my nose in the polling booth, you rapist-accomplice.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
40. Is the Pappas statement classified?
Anybody know if it's accessible someplace?
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
41. kick for outrage
:kick:
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
42. Unless pictures come out on TV, most will never hear of it.
And it will never be called what it is, which is rape and sexual assault, it will be vaguely and inaccurately dubbed 'abuse'. :( If people knew the rape rooms were under new management, I think Bush would be completely done, so it follows that the people never learn this without working hard to learn it.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. And the Lord knows...
the average 'murikkan will work harder to find the
TV remote switcher to turn on the latest episode
of "American Idol" than they will to find out
what their government is doing in THEIR names.
Why do they hate us? Why?
Picture a young person you love in the hands of these pedophiles.
BHN
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. As you said in the original post
These are mercenary pedophiles. I have zero tolerance for these creatures, nor will I suffer the brownshirts that support them.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
47. They were "just blowing off steam".
Rush said so.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
50. Do you remember how::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
The GOPers raved night and day about how young "Poor Poor Monica" was? Just a twenty something year old intern whe she was ravaged of her own free will!
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Beaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-04 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
55. I have to disagree with one point-
please keep in mind that i agree that they are abhorent acts, but 17 and 18 year olds ARE NOT "children".

btw- some of the soldiers doing the raping were probably 18-19 year-olds... would you classify them as "children" as well?

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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Beaker, get lost..........
Okay, so the soldiers raping the 17 and 18 year old girls, while they were interrogating them were just what?

17 and 18 year old girls are just kids, just children, are you a parent? And yes, the 18-19 year olds you say were committing the crimes, (read nowhere they were only 18 or 19), they were just kids as well.

God help us all for what we are allowing to happen in "our name" and for "freedom and democracy". What are we doing?
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. Get a grip....
Beaker was merely commenting that adding the hyperbole that they were children, does little to add to the outrage. In fact it may temper said outrage when people find out its not what most poeple consider children.

It's horrible enough without being misleading.
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Beaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. thanks
for understanding what i was saying.
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Beaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #57
68. "get lost"??
my apologies- I didn't realize that you had been voted grand high arbiter of who may stay and who must go...

:eyes:
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. yes. without a doubt.
A female that young, who probably never engaged in sexual activity because of the culture they were raised in, would be tramatized just like a child.

Those poor kids in uniform, are just that - kids. They may be grown to physical maturity, but do not likely have the human experience needed to be aware of the consequences of the actions they are doing, regardless if they are "just following orders". Consequences in terms of psychological illness they inflict upon themselves, their victims, and their country.
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Beaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #58
70. the average age for a girl/woman to marry is lower in the Arab world
than it is in western culture. in their culture, 17 - 18 year olds would definitely be seen as women, not children.
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. I don't really care if they are "perceived" to be women.
What I care about is their emotional/physical suffering that would be the result from being raped.

For my understanding, viewed from a western culture, I would call them children before I'd call them adults.
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JSJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #72
78. and the newly acquired status...
... of outcast by family members doesn't help the victim's healing process. Some aspects of Iraqi life are primitive, but should be understood in the context of centuries of invasions and oppression by western powers.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #55
62. We're all children of God....
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Beaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #62
71. but some are children of a lesser god
sorry, couldn't resist either
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. Sometimes even the greater God's children are led astray
...must be the work of the one Devil (or are there greater and lesser devils too?)

:)

ANYBODY BUT BUSH

Click here for "ANYBODY BUT BUSH", and other fair and balanced yet stunning buttons, magnets and stickers
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #55
81. Don't know about the laws in your state Beaker, but a 19 yr old even
having sex with someone under 18, even if its consensual is classified in many states as "rape"...

I'm a Mom and as someone who was once 17, yes, 17 is a child...so is an 18 year old....

And yes, I would classify those 18 and 19 year old in our military as children too...they are all kids and shouldn't be there....

I don't know who is "charged" here and whether they are soldiers or private contractors, but if they were contractors for the US military, chances are they are "older" since many of the contractors are "former" military folks...
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
59. Kick
and double Kick!
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
63. They had it coming...
Edited on Mon Jun-21-04 03:24 AM by RBHam
They should have known better than to support Al Qaeda...

(sarcasm off)

Until the Media is purged of it's undue Corporate Reich Wing influence, and YES I do include so called "left wing" publications like the NY Slimes And the Washington Boast, this kind of "stenography reporting" will continue. Hell, Judith "I Just Do As I'm Told" Miller is still getting paid an exorbitant salary for her whoredom.

If it weren't for Paul Krugman I'd never read that rag. The final straw for me was their "Bush's New Gravitas" editorial tribute to the boy king after his "Al Qaeda did it and we're now in a never ending War of Terror" speech subsequent to 9-11. I noted here on DU at the time that seeing as how Junior's rhetoric is confined to simplistic slogans like "you're either with us or against us", "wanted dead or alive" or we'll "smoke them out of their holes", that it was impossible for a cartoon character to observe the Law of Gravitas.
Bunnypants, indeed.

Oy, the NY Times has a lot more 'splainin' to do as far as I'm concerned.

on edit: sp.
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truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
67. An 18-year-old is NOT a child. But raping adult women is still evil.
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
74. Two more articles
'US soldiers abused young girl at Iraqi prison'
May 7 2004

The US military has said it will investigate claims by a former inmate of Abu Ghraib prison that a girl as young as 12 was stripped and beaten by military personnel.

...

He said: "They brought a 12-year-old girl into our cellblock late at night. Her brother was a prisoner in the other cells.

"She was naked and screaming and calling out to him as they beat her. Her brother was helpless and could only hear her cries. This affected all of us because she was just a child.

http://www.itv.com/news/623337.html

June 09 2003
US forces outraged by Iraqi teen rape claim

Baghdad - An Iraqi newspaper run by Sunni Muslims traded charges on Monday with the United States-led occupation authority over the alleged rape of two Iraqi girls by US soldiers, a claim denied by the coalition.

According to the daily As-Saah, the girls, aged 14 and 15, were talking to American soldiers in Suwaira, 180km south of Baghdad, on Friday when the soldiers suggested they accompany them to their camp to take pictures but then collectively raped the pair.

As-Saah said one of the girls died after she was raped by 18 soldiers while the other was killed by her family. Editor Naama Abderrazzak told AFP two of the daily's reporters had talked to residents of the area and seen the bodies of the two girls.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=3&art_id=qw1055...
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JSJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
75. don't forget to thank the troops
After all, if a preponderance of posters can skip over the guilt- by way of their comments- of the actual perpetrators of the rapes to place blame only at the doorstep of Rumsfeld and higher-ups, then that must mean the troops (the perpetrators?) are guiltless in the minds of many DU members--- hence the note of 'gratitude' for our blessed troops. Have you hugged a troop, today? Then, have you hugged a rapist, today?
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
76. Shit. My band played a function which Colin Powell attended. Wish I'd seen
him. I refused to work the show and my co-workers did and said the junta-enabler was at the NAACP's 29th annual tribute to the US Military in DC on June 10th.

When my buddies told me Powell was there I wished that I hadn't stayed away so I could personally give him some what for.

I tried to persuade the rest of the band not to participate but the singing stars fronting the act were sucking up to the NAACP.

The bass player said he was getting paid so he could take care of his teenage daughters. I wonder how he feels about paying tribute to a military that has killed thousands of children like his own.

Shit. Ugly ugly...
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. I would have played...
But I would have played lots of dissonant notes, and when Colon Bowel got up to speak, I would have cranked up my amp to 11 and made the loudest goddam feedback a metal head ever heard. I would then apologise and do it again a minute or two later... "Oops! my bad"... repeatedly until I was kicked out of the place.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #77
82. Hee hee..Lol....Swamp Rodent you can play at my party anytime...
...glad to see you have a Spinal Tap "11" on your amp....

:hi:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. Oi cara
"You see, MINE goes to eleven..."
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. Swamp Rodent...you might have "lurked" for a long time and been "shy"
...to the DU before joining, but your making up for it quickly...I think you might be setting the record for postings per the hour...

I like your sense of humor and thoughtful postings....glad to have you on the DU...

What time is it in New Orleans? Are you a vampire a la Anne Rice?

:hi:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. brigado
Edited on Tue Jun-22-04 03:00 AM by Swamp_Rat
You might be right... this is cathartic. Though I am totally serious about saving America, I tend to use humor and art as a vehicle for delivering my ideas to the eyes and ears of others.

I didn't know one can look up a person's posts collectively. This is an interesting and useful feature that I will investigate sometime.

Funny you mentioned Ann Rice. I played for her last big Christmas party back in 2001. She's a wonderful person... in person. I knew her husband but he passed away from a lengthy illness. He was an awesome artist.

Well, it's almost 3 am here and time to turn on Ray Taliaferro on KGO AM (via internet) - Bernie Ward is on right now. I write him emails constantly and occasionally he reads them on the air. This will cut into my DU posting, but when I was about 4 years old I learned how to eat two crawfish at once, so maybe that skill will be handy here.

In fact, over the last 3 years, I have grabbed articles from the LBN thread and passed them to the midnight DJs. Last night I sent Ray the latest Sy Hersh article.

Edited for horrible and unforgivable grammer
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. KGO is great - I like Ray and Bernie, but Melanie Morgan is a scary ...
...little bitch, isn't she?

Well, I'm going to bed now...the little ones are "awake" every morning at 6:30AM, so this is the time for me to go get atleast 4 hours of ZZZ's....

Ah, the summer solstice...makes me think of some summers I spent with relatives in the Archipelago of Denmark at a summer cottage dancing around the May Pole and singing great drinking songs drunk....like the bunch of Pagan Vikings that my family is....

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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #86
88. boa noite
I can relate to your experience in Scandinavia. I spent a Summer in Norway, which included a weekend in Telemark playing music in a circus for children. One of these days I'll share some photos. Did you ever get to see the "Bog Man?"

I don't know who Melanie Morgan is, but I saw Michael Savage's website by accident when a troll posted on DU. He is a monster! So is O'Reilly and Hannity, and especially Rash Limpballs. They remind me of Rudolph Hess screaming into a microphone praising Hitler. They advocate rape, murder, and torture and as far as I'm concerned, they are enemies of America. I'm am fighting mad at that monster O'Reilly for advocating genocide last Friday... normally I am a pacifist, but O'Reilly brings out the worst in me... grrr!!!

Sorry for the negative energy... off to dreamland you go, where you will be with the great spirits.. Takom' na jima... (War, for "the spirit is loosed")

Beijos e abraos pra os meninos.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. 1/2 Viking 1/2 German - It's a balanced mix...
I'll have to PM you on more details of my times in Scandanavia visits... O8)

I made a late night mistake - Melanie Morgan is not on KGO, but rather KSFO - "Michael Savage's" station here...She is trying to out Ann Coulter Ann. Check out her webpage and "recommended reading"...
Thinks Free Republic is the "Premier Conservative News Forum"... :puke:

http://www.ksfo560.com/djadditionalinformation.asp?djid...

Yeah, the whole "lot" of them from O'Reilly to Hannity, Limpballs to Coulter, Horowitz etc...are frightening...I don't have words that are able to describe these creatures...

Poor Elf...probably wondering how we managed to turn this thread into our discussions of Amazonia and Scandanavia....We can atleast entertain everyone and let them know a little bit about our thoughts on things...
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