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ringmastery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:03 AM
Original message
Best places to live outside the U.S. for a progressive person
Which countries are doing things right? A lot of people may be thinking about leaving the U.S. if Bush wins another term in office.
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emanymton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. The Shrub Won't Win, Germany Is Progressive...
but going through a long hard resession/depression.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. United Arab Emirates
Edited on Wed Feb-11-04 04:27 AM by JCMach1
It's truly multi-cultural and one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

I have students from 70 different coutnries and nationalities.

EVERYONE hates Bush here (not America) and even the taxi drivers know the difference!
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usrbs Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Very multi-cultural, hah? Any Jews, any unveiled women?
I'm confused - wouldn't people be leaving the U.S. because they want to go to a MORE Democratic, LESS theocratic regime?
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. The UAE
I believe that the UAE is a country moving toward democracy and actually has female ministers. If true, that means it isn't exactly a replica of Saudi Arabia. Hopefully someone can verify or refute this. I may be confusing it with another Arab country.
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Brian Sweat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. There is no question that the UAE is light years ahead of SA,
but it is still an Islamic country. Their tourist guide says that you are not permitted to eat or drink in public during the day during Ramadan. It does say that they tend to be more lenient towards westerners.

Also, the last I heard, you will not be allowed in the country if you passport has an Isreali stamp on it.

They also had a big flap a few years ago about a Muslim from the UAE who married a Jew.
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Thanks for the clarification
Hopefully the UAE becomes truly tolerant in a generation.
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DarkSim Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
3. After a long search... Finland!
It's progressive and rich.

Apart from the crazy taxes and prices it's a very nice place to live in.
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libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Don't those "crazy taxes" provide universal medical insurance and
other important programs which make the quality of living better?
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. Just don't get caught speeding....
Heard about this on the radio yesterday:

Finn gets $312,000 speeding ticket

From what I understand, tickets are a % of income reported on tax returns. :)

Sid
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:30 AM
Response to Original message
4. Canada
It is progressive and probably the most tolerant nation on Earth.
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onebigbadwulf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:30 AM
Response to Original message
5. New Zealand for me... SUCKERS!
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I hear Middle Earth is beautiful
and peaceful, but quiet and isolated. You'll soon be bored.
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ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. I'd never be bored with a good pipe of long-bottom leaf and an elven song
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Screaming Lord Byron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. Yeah, NZ for me.
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Brian Sweat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. Well, I for one am really pissed at the New Zealanders.
They led us to believe they were going to destroy the evil one, but instead, they sent him here to rule over us.
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:32 AM
Response to Original message
6. Canada
seems like it would be good place. I have relatives there and it is really beautiful, if I leave here I am planning on Canada. :thumbsup:
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ConcernedCanuk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. I sort of agree with you
.
.

but I should warn you

We are getting a wee bit concerned about our neighbour . . .

:freak:

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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. WHAT??? Greenland? the Arctic Circle?...
Certainly, you don't mean US in the US???
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
10. cultural history
Given the cultural history of the US, being once a british colony similar to canada, australia and new zealand, as well as britain herself... these cultures most easily offer a realistic option.

Effectively, those who would seek to leave are political refugees. This would make them more inclined towards a nation state with which they share hearts and minds. Karl Marx comes to mind after he was banned from the continent... that he lived in london and wrote the works for which he is famous for... and as a single man, was hugely responsible for the ideological shifts that ended the opporession of those who opposed him.

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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
11. Brazil (nt)
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
15. How progressive are you? Opposed to corporate globalization?
Only a few nations do oppose corporate globalization. These are quite progressive wrt to global justice, but are likely to become victims of the war on terrorism. I mean, Bush already let us know that Venezuela to is supporting Al Quada.
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Screaming Lord Byron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
17. Actually, Scotland. 75% of the population is left-of-centre
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cryofan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. yes, scotland is quite progressive, However....
....your best bet would be to marry someone from one of the following countries: Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Finland, Belgium, France, Switzerland, Austria, Germany. It is very hard to get citizenship in those countries, unless you marry in. England/UK in toto is not that progressive. Neither is Ireland, Spain or Italy (Italy maybe some).
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. scotland's got a muffed up economy
Scotland has economic problems largely due to its declining population, and these 2 factors, economic decline and falling population feed on each other to create a crisis in confidence.

The scottish executive just announced to allow eastern european
immigrants to come and live in scotland. This seems utterly
banal, given "commonwealth" nations + America immigration. The commonwealth/america would provide a great source of economiclly dynamic immigrants.

Instead, the boneheads think that getting people from eastern euoprean ex-communist nations is going to re-fuel the economy. Then, given stupid decisions like that, there is a crisis of confidence in the stupidity of the scottish executive and devolution, and this encourages further dis-investment.

Were i in their shoes, i would bulk up university attendence from america and let graduates stay as permanent residents. This would open a reasonable immigration of like-spirited folks seeking to escape political oppression of a second bush-tyranny.

Scotland is "owned" by mostly foreign interests... huge land owners, many of them in the extended royal family and crony's of the british
old money. They can buy up larger estates cheaper if they encourage depopulation, just like happened during the irish potato famine, people signed away their land to eat... and with depopulation, entire communities are diminishing, whilst inverness and hub cities increase in population. However, the economic investment is very socialist and not designed to create growth, for this scares the large land owners, who are deliberately following a policy of depopulation.

The royal family is revered in much of the highlands, in the very terms subject and queen(landowner)... not citizen. They dare not question the great decisions from on high. The scottish executive is hobbled forever... a stillborn by these interests that would preserve their landholdings and status quo from westminster.

I am for scottish national separation, and joining to the EU, as much as to GB. This independence will allow scotland to make the economic decisions it has to make, without "empire" interference.
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Screaming Lord Byron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Ah, a fellow Nat. I didn't realize there were any other out there.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. How anyone can claim to love Scotland and its people...
and NOT support nationalism, then i wonder what it is they really stand for, given the results. Its permenent tyrrany of mediocrity endorsed decay as controlled from westminster. Compare scotland to equivalent sized northern european states: Denmark and Finland... Both have similar populations to what scotland has today, yet they have dynamic economies... why? People are the same by and large, and scotland has an outstanding education level. What gives. All factors i gather suggest deliberate strategic disfunction, by the national interests who control scotland from westminster. The country is ruled from afar by the big land owners, and has not sovereign power over its own resources.

Were it joined to the EURO, with an immigrant population from nations all over the earth, it could stabilize its population
decline, and turn in to a northern-european star economy. Everyone i know in scotland is a nationalist, and has concerns over being ruled from afar by false interests that kill scottish boys in wars of the bush empire.

Immigration from america and canada of people who would like to make a new life in scotland, would power a dynamic university-based technology economy in the hub cities.... wow, i have had such visions of what is possible in scotland. Rather, scotland is poor, the rural areas are disinvested, rural poverty in many areas, as EU subsidy farmers and government employment ... innovation has not been inspired in scottish dynamism, and to unleash the spark, the people in edinburgh need full control over their ENTIRE nation and its decision processes. Instead of a poor suburb of england, scotland could blossom with independence, and i myself have given up caring one way or the other, as it is not my vote to say. But after hearing people and why they are nationalist, i agree with them. They are the smartest of the lot, they see what is possible, and they suffer the most disappointment at the opportunity cost of
the jack maconnelll mediocracy.
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Screaming Lord Byron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Ha! Jack McConnell, I'd forgotten about that jumped-up councillor.
In any other country, he wouldn't be allowed to run a lemonade stand. The tragedy of the Scottish Parliament is that it is run by the Scottish Labour 'B' Team. Scotland, and the UK in general have always been ill-served by leaders. There have been very few inspiring leaders or even talented ones over the years, and those with ability have rarely reached positions of power. Mediocrity rises in Scottish Politics, I'm afraid. A classic example would be the greatest Scottish Socialist party leader of the twentieth century, the great Tommy Douglas. Unfortunately he was leading Canada's NDP. What a loss to Scotland, and what a gain to Canada.
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Loonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. You mean Northern England?
:evilgrin:

D'oh!
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Screaming Lord Byron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. The North is pretty left-wing too, it's those soft southern shites
in the home counties who let them down ;)
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cryofan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. is Scotland the most lefty place in the English speaking world?
I think it might be!

What a great place it could be if Scotland did break off from the UK: that would be the rebirth of industrial socialism....and there is of course the North Sea oil....
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #24
38. Tykes and Geordies
Ya mean them northern places? It appears to me a case of government detachment, downing street, whitehall, buckiinham palace, belgravia, london city and its permanent and temporary residents have lifted off and are already ON mars. Geesh, if america wants to get to mars, its pretty obvious where to go. The fascination with outer space, amercica and africa when their own country is the very reason they are in their jobs to start with.

What glues the two together? This rural highland area that sees itself as already an independent occupied land... and the occupiers who impose a regime designed from london, mars.

An english parliament would be fair for those folks disenfranchised by the irony of a party called labour. Methinks the left wing spirit of the north is brilliant, but contained, as with scotland, by the secret chains extending from the london cancerous-growth.

London is very cramped city. There are few open spaces, and money buys space there. Rents are by the week, yet are prices that would be by the month in most american cities. My own need for wide open spaces had me moved out of london within 2 years.

To understand the place, i recommend a meditation at green park. From the meditation, you can see the whitehall, buckingham and downing street matrix, as well feeling the city finance hub straining
against it. The royal swans in the lake, in their insulated antiquity... floating on a cushion of wealth that is ensured by the policies of monarchy enshrined in "democratic monarchy". If you imagine looking at london from above, the 3 power spots, parliament,
buckingham, and threadneedle. come together in glorious contrast and intensity in points across the city... Yet the entire paradigm.. LONDON, IS ON MARS.

This monarchy has burned a groove across the uk over the long long time its been in power, and nothing threatens the antique pipelines of power that are better for subjugation and tax collecting than supporting entrepreneurialism and goodwill. So whilst britain herself is a very liberal nation much like the US, the cancer in westminster is a detached system of repression... and this spirit lashes out, much as it does with american republicans of a similar ilk.

That tony blair represents labour, but does not represent the right of the common people to be implicitly equal within the constitutional framework that elevates a queen and royals to unequal status. All people are not equal in tony blairs britain, as he is blind to it as well in his london routine.

The government should have to hold its congress on a rotating series of cities, changing every quarter. This would at least get the authorites in the local pubs with the people who are grossly wondering what the hell's going on on Mars.
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Brian Sweat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. If it's not Scottish,
IT'S CRAP!
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
23. I can vouch for the UK.
Live and let live is the motto here.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
32. i asked this same question a week ago
And Brazil was the overwhelming winner (trying to scheme a way down there right now)...I'd leave today if i could (there are few worse/more helpless feelings than not having any $$$$).
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MAlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
34. This thread is self-defeating for American Democrats
We have to TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY. THIS ONE. THE UNITED STATES!

This country was stolen from us 4 years ago, we have to take it back now.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. great, take it back
but that don't stoppa someone from noticing a trend, eh?

There is nothing to take back anymore. Dennis Kucinich's politics are considered sooo far removed from the mainstream, that a kucinich
voter might as well consider a move to a sane country, that has common sense. We abroad are no less americans, and can vote down ugly presidents without living in a police bully state.

The country never belonged to us. It belongs to the earth. It belongs to corporate oligarchs and media conglomorates, industrial kingpins and career politicians. The country is gone, and the only thing to take back is your soul.. from a nation that usurps the souls of its citizens to murder and make war as its primary export.

What country is there to take back? We have not ruled america since before the white man.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
37. The Netherlands??
from what I've read, they're pretty progressive
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. American's and space
I've learned this about europe, having and american-west spirit, i love seeing 200 miles in clear new mexico sunrises, that sorta feeling of open space. Though i can repress this need of space, with the box containment of compact european cities, tunnels of gilded rooms, yet no replacement for sandia-peak sunsets.

You can tell right away, whether you can handle european city living if you already yourself live in the centre of a city, use only rail transit and sort your garbage. Some people come to live in europe for a short time, and desire the city experience. For longer term living considerations, space is important. It is the small house in montana you might have one day where you plan to chill between age 90 and 110. Most americans have space expectations that are unrealistic for populated europe. This makes the nordic countries more appealing, as the densitys are much lower, yet holland is one of the highest densities of all. People are constantly "together" and its a very social culture. Imagine being in a public place and being treated very poorly for being american, and if 1% of the social culture feels an intense antipathy towards america, it makes social openness much much harder, and puts the immigrant in the same batch as mexicans in america. It is not uncommon to introduce an american in london as "from the colonies". Social status can be introduced against foreigners in very subtle ways.

To immigrate you must "become" and show evidence of sincere goodwill towards becoming an upstanding nederland citizen. Given the language, the cultural immersionn and the financial stress, It is a tough landing.

There is a funny feeling when you finally sit down with all your stuff in your home in the new country you moved to. I was happy and exhausted. I felt emotionally a refugee of a war of human ugliness against their own kind. (neocon-america) and very grateful for even temporary refuge, as i no longer had any long term survival concept, just grateful to enlightenment and praying for a sign. Myself, i was not emotionally prepared to learn a new language right then. Holland would require that right off.

Peace,
-s


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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. not anymore we aren't
Dutch government supports your liar-in-chief, we'r going to ban headscarfs just like all the other 'progressive' european nations, introduce US style voting districs, privitize everything, break down the welfare state.
It's just that it isn't as bad is the US, yet.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
40. Canada has its points:
Universal healthcare is so entrenched not even conservatives dare suggest undoing it (even though some would love to, given half a chance).

The governing Liberal Party is to the left of mainstream Democrats, and the most commonly heard complaint of new Liberal PM Paul Martin is that he's moving the party to the right.

Canada has a viable, non-third-way socialist party, the NDP, which governs provincially and currently boasts the support of nearly one in five federal voters.

A recent poll says that, given the choice, 85% of Canadians would vote to defeat Bush.

Perhaps the best reason: cable providers are forbidden from carrying FoxNews. :D
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