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DontBlameMe Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 09:16 AM
Original message
Ex-NFL player Tillman killed in Afghanistan
Edited on Fri Apr-23-04 09:32 AM by Brand
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4815441 /

Pat Tillman, who gave up a lucrative NFL contract with the Phoenix Cardinals to join the Army Rangers, has been killed in Afghanistan, according to NBCs Jim Miklaszewski.



on edit: Removed second sentence for copyright.
2nd edit: It was Afghanistan, not Iraq. MSNBC changed title, same link.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Bye Bye
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SlackJaw Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. America, look at what war is doing!
You want more of this? This is what happens when you live by the sword.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
106. ACCORDING TO FREEPERS THIS GUY IS THEIR HORST WESSEL
Read this stuff-- we'd better jump on the bandwagon

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1123326/posts

To: threat matrix
He was a man. He deserves a postage stamp. He could have went for a high salary, but he decided to serve the United States, my country.

posted on 04/23/2004 12:50:02 PM PDT by Hacksaw (theocratic paleoconistic Confederate flag waving loyalty oath supporter

To: threat matrix
Lefty media and libs are chomping at the bit to exploit this as a Bush-caused senseless death is my guess.
We will see how Welsstone they go on it and how much it will backfire on them.

CNN's excitement is exemplified in their intial mistaken report he was killed in Iraq.

posted on 04/23/2004 12:52:20 PM PDT by tallhappy (Juntos Podemos!)


Napolitano should rename piestawa peak, "Ranger Tillman Pass."
Then she should resign.

posted on 04/23/2004 3:05:43 PM PDT by Robert_Paulson2 (the madridification of our election is now officially underway.)


To: Aaron_A
But Tillman managed to take nine Al Qaeda out before the ambush was over..

posted on 04/24/2004 10:15:06 AM PDT by threat matrix


To: threat matrix; hollywood
I think either the Cardinal's stadium or Sun Devil stadium should be renamed. For sure.

11 posted on 04/24/2004 10:16:14 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)

To: freedumb2003
I guess it's true, we really do live in two different nations. I would love to have a chat with these...people(for lack of a better word).

Back in the early 70s ( I'm a cop in the AF at the time) I run into some idiots like these. Asked them if they were pacifists, yes they said. Good because I'm not(says I), and the AF has spents 10s of thousands of dollars to train me how to beat the crap out of people, so shut you F...ing trap and go away...or else.

38 posted on 04/24/2004 1:40:26 PM PDT by Valin (Hating people is like burning down your house to kill a rat)








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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
4. Thanks Pat
HE gave up more than most have even considered to fight the ACTUAL war on terror. A true patriot.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. every death there is sad
but most don't get that kind of coverage. He sounds truly patriotic.

Afghanistan is still not safe for Unocal-Halliburton though, so I wonder just how much this death--and all the others--have really helped in the "war" on "terror."
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pleiku52cab Donating Member (674 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. at least now, just maybe,
some of those "it dont affect me" assholes might
take notice of at least one death - HEY YOU DUMB BASTARDS,
THOSE ARE REAL PEOPLE DYING OUT THERE!!!  rest in peace bro
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Pat Tillman was a true Patriot
Rest in Peace. :(
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Amen...
(crying sounds)
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BraveDave Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
65. :usa:
Pat Tillman is a shining example of an unselfish person and proud American
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
26. I'm going to be a little contrary here....
...but can you tell me what the "actual war on terror" really is?

What did Tillman and every other American who has lost their life in the Middle East really die for?

Are you stating that you actually believe the NeoCon propaganda concerning who was actually responsible for 911? If the FBI can't link the hijackers to Al Qaeda, then who IS responsible for 911? Please read the following:

Robert S. Mueller, III, Director, FBI
Commonwealth Club of California
San Francisco, CA
April 19, 2002


<http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/speeches/speech041902.htm >

Excerpts:

"The plans were hatched and financed overseas, beginning as long as five years ago. Each of the hijackers came from abroad: fifteen from Saudi Arabia, two from the United Arab Emirates, and one each from Lebanon and Egypt. All 19 entered our country legally, and only three had overstayed the legal limits of their visas on the day of the attacks."

...Does anyone see Afghanistan or Iraq in the above statement?

"The hijackers also left no paper trail. In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper either here in the U.S. or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere that mentioned any aspect of the September 11th plot. The hijackers had no computers, no laptops, no storage media of any kind."

...No paper trail means no evidence, doesn't it?
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BobDCousy2004 Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. Smack
Smack smack smack smack smack smack smack smack smack.

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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #26
78. Ummm....
I really don't think that there's a lot of doubt that OBL and Al Queda were behind 9/11. I also don't think that there's a lot of doubt that the Taliban in Afghanistan helped them. Remember, Bill Clinton ordered cruise missile strikes on terrorist training camps in Afghanistan, and he was quite sane.

As for there not being a paper trail, what did you expect? Ever hear of the concept of "operational security"?

Calling the evidence of guilt about people in Afghanistan supporting terrorism "neocon propaganda" is a tad bit too tinfoil even for most of the tinfoil crowd.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #78
87. Did you even read what Mueller said in the speech I linked,...
...or have you swallowed the "official story" hook, line, and sinker?

Have I ever heard of "operational security"? I heard it on a daily basis during the five years I served in the military...how about you?

Question for you...why didn't we go after the hijackers' countries of origin instead of following the strategy of knocking Afghanistan back even further into the Stone Age? You do remember the hijackers' country of origin, don't you?:

Robert S. Mueller, III, Director, FBI
Commonwealth Club of California
San Francisco, CA
April 19, 2002


<http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/speeches/speech041902.htm >

Excerpt:

"Each of the hijackers came from abroad: fifteen from Saudi Arabia, two from the United Arab Emirates, and one each from Lebanon and Egypt."

I still don't see anything in Mueller's statement that includes Afghan or Iraqi nationals, do you? Is it possible that, just as the NeoCons were "mistaken" about Iraqi WMDs, that they were also "mistaken" as to who actually launched the attack on 911? Why did Osama Bin Laden initially DENY that he and Al Qaeda were responsible for 911? Why would OBL have not readily accepted responsibility for the act as he has always done following terrorist acts in the past? How is it that a senior member of the Pakistani ISI was not only involved with sending $100,000 to Atta prior to the 911 attacks, but that he was also present for high-level meetings in the U. S. on 911?

Here's another curve ball for you:

Pentagon Lied: Terrorists Trained at U. S. Bases
<http://www.madcowprod.com/issue06.html >

Excerpts:

"EXCLUSIVE Despite earlier denials, terrorists in the Sept. 11 attacks received training at secure U.S. military bases, a Defense Department spokesman admitted in an interview Friday.

Three days after the WTC disaster, Newsweek, the Washington Post and the Knight Ridder newspapers reported claims that five of the terrorist hijackers in the Sept 11 attacks received training at secure U.S. military installations during the 1990s. The reports also claimed three of the terrorists had listed their address as the Naval Air Station in Pensacola, Fla., and had participated in military exchange programs for foreign officers at the Pensacola Naval Air Station in Florida."

...SNIP....

"Consider: Foreign nationals training at secure U.S. facilities do so almost solely at the behest of governments considered friendly to the United States.

Gaining admittance to the International Officers School at Maxwell AFB in Montgomerywhich terrorist ringleader Mohamed Atta was reported to have attendedwould have required Atta to be someone well-connected with a friendly Arab government. (For the record, the spokesperson denied that the International Officers School attendee named Mohamed Atta is the same Mohamed Atta who piloted a passenger plane into the WTC, while repeatedly declining requests for biographical details about a second Arab pilot with the same name as the terrorist.)"

Just curious, but do you consider the 10,000 to 15,000 Afghan civilians that we killed...women and children included...to be enemy combatants? Is that how you manage to stay comfortable with our attack on the entire country of Afghanistan? Since our invasion of that country has there been ANY appreciable drop in terrorism around the world?

As far as your attempt to personally smear me as being "a tad bit too tinfoil even for most of the tinfoil crowd", I say come up with the proof that OBL and Al Qaeda are responsible for 911 and I'll stop asking questions about the "official story". How's that? Does that seem fair? I'll also stop asking questions about the 30-35 minute delay in authorizing the interceptors to take off and pursue the airliners. And I will also stop asking why Junior stated at least twice that he actually saw the first plane hit the WTC. And finally, I will stop asking why Flight 93 left an 8 mile trail of debris, including an engine, before it crashed into that Pennsylvania field.

Still like the "official story" from the same group that lies nearly every time open their mouths? Here's a little advice, pal...try looking at the world when you've got your head out of the ground. You'll be amazed at how much more you can see.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #87
93. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #93
94. In conclusion...
...you may never get a chance to post more than the 16 posts you already have on DU.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #94
95. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BobDCousy2004 Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #95
96. Anyway, for all your future responses to my messages
Smack Smack SMACK!!!
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #87
98. Do you see spots?
I suppose Bill Clinton launched the cruise missile strike against terrorist training camps in Afghanistan because they were selling Girl Scout cookies, and Clinton HATES Girl Scout cookies... :tinfoilhat:
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #26
120. Tillman did not die in the Middle East
He died in Afganastan.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. damn
at least he was one of those "walk the walk" types, instead of all the other chickenhawks we see on tv...
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. And of course, the news-bimbette had the nerve to say
that "some people said he only went for publicity and because he was not a starter".. I cannot believe the wicked things that come out of their mouths.. This is reality...not reality tv.. :grr:

Such a waste.. I did not know anything about it, but really a shame..
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GiovanniC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Tillman Wasn't In This For Publicity
He severed all media contact.

He could have milked the fame out of this move, made himself an icon of patriotic Americana in a time of war, and become the "recruiting tool" McCain wanted him to be.

He didn't.

He's not just a patriot, he's a patriot with integrity.
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klook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. Good point
I disagree with the Bush administration's war efforts, but this guy was obviously acting on his convictions.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
53. What a nasty thing to say!
I thought I couldn't be shocked by the morans who call themselves "journalists" these days, but I was wrong.

Rest in Peace, Tillman.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
6. I am sorry for his family and the families of the thousands of soldiers
killed and maimed by this war....while there have been more than 600 killed there are thousands without limbs, sight, and maimed by this stupid war.
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. No, there have not been more than 600 killed
there. This man died in Afghanistan, fighting the very legitimate war on terror, thousands of miles away from Iraq.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. Maybe the writer was implying that the two wars in the Middle East are...
...basically one war that we are waging for God knows what reason. You seem to think that war is being waged in Afghanistan because of the so-called "war on terror", but I personally don't believe anything has been proven in that regard.

In that case, there is indeed a total casualty count of 1000 dead and thousands of wounded in that region.

By the way, Afghanistan and Iraq are separated only by the country of Iran...a distance of about 1200 miles, not the "thousands" you indicated in your post.

<http://www.sitesatlas.com/Maps/Maps/606.htm >
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Well
I think there's every justification in the world for our invasion of Afghanistan. And I think that, much as Mr. Bush and friends want to pretend it isn't so, the invasion of Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with the wider war on terror.

As for the distance between the two countries, "thousands of miles" was clearly an unfocussed exageration, but you should note that this man was killed near Khost, which is about as far in Afghanistan as you can get from Iraq.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Well...
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cleofus1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
9. I'm an atheist...
Edited on Fri Apr-23-04 10:12 AM by cleofus1
otherwise I would wish him godspeed...like a previous poster said...at least he walked the walk...
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
12. Damn. That sucks.
Salutation: SPC
Name: Patrick Daniel Tillman
Account Type: Active Army
Rank: E4
Branch: 11
Organization: 2/75 Ranger Regiment
Organization Address: Fort Lewis, WA. 95433

RIP
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. Pat Tillman a true patriot who didn't just talk the talk.
Unlike the republican chickenhawks that sent him to hold down the fort in Afghanistan. He gave up a 3.6 million dollar contract to serve his country while they tried to steal Iraq's oil and line their pockets. He might be alive today if we had concentrated on Afghanistan instead of trying to settle the Bush family vendetta and pump up the GOP.
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liberal72 Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
15. RIP Pat Tillman: A true hero and patriot.
n/t
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Roaming Donating Member (476 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
16. God bless his family; what a wonderful role model and patriot
Especially in today's day and age when so many sports figures are the exact opposite of good role models.
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RummyTheDummy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I appreciate the positive nature of this thread
Unlike the GD thread where people are polticizing it and accusing the NFL of attempting to get publicity over Tillman's death, as if the most high profile pro league in this country, if not the world, needs it.

Bottom line: Tillman walked the walk. He like everyone else who has died deserves our respect.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
18. Damn, that is just so sad.
I just got done reading the NYT's article on this. He sounded like an amazing human being, and true patriot, and someone who had a calling to do what he thought was more important than football.

Condolensces to his family...

RL
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Champ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. He was an amazing human being
I remember when he was in college. My grandma who was still at Arizona State at the time(She loved going to school, she has several degrees) had a couple of classes with him. He was a hard worker and a very nice person according to her, I met him a few times and even have his autograph. Out of the people killed in war, this one person was the closest to me even though I didn't know him that well.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
83. Condolensces to family & Friends
Most capitalist societies will take advanage of Tillman for the buck
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
21. Rest in Peace.
What sad, tragic news. I remember being touched deeply by the news that Tillman was leaving the NFL to enlist in the Army with his brother.

He was a true patriot, and his sacrifice was meaningful and enduring.

Rest in peace, Pat Tillman.

:-(
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
22. Very sad
Maybe it will wake up some of the conservative sports crowd. :-(
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wildwww2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #22
84. Wake them up? Or make them more bloodthirsty? Time for Brains
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 06:51 AM by wildwww2
Too bad the majority of the conservative sports crowd. Would rather use brawn. (Other people`s brawn of course) Iraq is more of a lost cause than Vietnam ever was and the Iraq mess is just getting started. We cannot acheive our goals over there. Even if they didn`t change everyday.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President
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PopSixSquish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
23. Godspeed Pat Tillman and all of our Armed Forces KIA
I was moved to tears when I read this earlier. When will this madness ever end?

:cry:
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CityDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
24. Many fallen heros
Pat Tillman is an American hero along with all of the other men and women who have died defending our freedom. May he and the rest of the fallen heros rest in peace.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
28. Rangers lead the way.
HUAH! Rest in peace, Pat, and thank you for your sacrifice.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
29. Watch Bush attend THIS funeral.
or make some other gesture and posture. AWOL fucking chickenhawk elitist scumbag.
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Snellius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Bush wants us to forget that there's still a war in Afghanistan,
the battleground of the real war against terrorism, from which he secretly diverted troops and treasure for the war in Iraq.
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cornfedyank Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
58. if shrub attends this funeral, i just hope the people see what a low life,
publicity seeking, jerk, * really is. even the religious right has to see the hypocrisy if he tries to go. i will point it out to everyone.
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SideshowScott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
32. Sad..Many prayers to his Family, Friends and Fans
He did not want any special treatment,
he did what he felt was right. May he rest in peace
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
33. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Champ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. You don't even know him
He was FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR from a criminal. He used football to get into college much less an education, he didn't even think there was a possibility of playing in the NFL. He enlisted shortly after 9/11 when everybody was giving blood, enlisting, donating to the red cross, etc to somehow do something about 3,000+ lives that were lost. Him, he enlisted. He didn't do it for himself, he didn't do it "to kill a few towel heads", he did it for the 3,000 lives that were lost on 9/11. He is far from your ordinary player, less then 2% of NFL players gave up a big contract to do something about what had happen. I think that makes him far from an NFL player.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. so one of bush's willing executioner's is a true hero of yours?
Edited on Fri Apr-23-04 07:59 PM by treepig
yeah, whatever.

personally, somebody who volunteers to go use our $450 billion war machine to slaughter innocent third world, poverty-stricken civilians (while the real terrorists are airlifted out of the country - or never were in afghanistan in the first place - courtesy of pakistan's isi) is no hero of mine.

thankfully i'll be dead, but in 20 years all the orphans that he and his ilk have created - i.e, the new crop of terrorists, will be over here killing my kids, and possibly even yours. a true patriot hero indeed.

in the past i've taken shit on this board for mentioning that the troops "volunteered" to go be part of the imperialistic american war machine. i was told in no uncertain terms that they were all naive troops who signed up during the benign clinton administration in hopes of getting an otherwise unobtainable college education. well, this guy definitely does not fit that mold at all.



everyone i know who joined the military after 9-11 did so out of pure bloodlust - gotta go even the score by blindly lashing out at whatever convenient target presents itself. in no cases was their any sentiment to obtain justice in any meaningful sense of the word - nope, we just gotta go nuke somebody, anybody (if that were only possible) - to show how tough we were. and anybody, even well intentioned, who had an iq above 35 or so should have been able to figure out with the head-up-their-asses cold-war leaders this country had after 9-11 - military interventions were sure to occur and be disastrous. anybody who walked into aiding and abetting these criminals with their eyes wide open, as this wonderkid did, deserves nothing but scorn.


so what have i done for my country? damn little - but at least i'm not all gung-ho to spawn a future generation of terrorists. on the positive side, i've paid enough taxes to pay for a least a bit of depleted uranium amunition - which i've been told will go on killing the evil, evil people over in afganistan for 4.5 billion years or so. perhaps it'll take even take out a few more wedding parties now and again - maybe even a few morecanadian infantrymen, sure, it's not much, but consider it baby steps. baby steps for america

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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. Thanks for saying what I wanted to say.
He looked like a bloodthirsty maniac to me. I think he also had a death wish cause he was into skydiving and other daredevil stuff.

I don't see a hero unless you want your kids to emulate him by taking people's lives for oil or some other dumbreason. Blind patriotism is not heroic imho.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Regardless of what Tillman "looked like" to you, he was still one...
...of many American soldiers that have died in a foreign land for reasons that have been clearly proven false. I mourn their loss as much as I mourn the loss of the innocent Afghan and Iraqi civilians that have been killed in this illegal and unnecessary war.

IMHO, you should try to be a little more respectful to the families of the dead and wounded. We have quite a few DUers with family members in the Middle East and I'm sure they don't appreciate your comments any more than I do.
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #55
86. the du'er's with family members participating in bush's wars
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 07:45 AM by treepig
have all claimed:

1) poor naive joey joined up under the benign (let's only kill 500,000 iraqi children)clinton administration for a college education and he's now shocked, shocked i tell you, that he actually had to go fight in a war.

2) poor naive uncle samuel just joined the national guard to sandbag rivers and help out in domestic natural disasters, and now he's shocked, shocked i tell you, that he's killing babies over in iraq.

ok, fair enough in both cases. although i don't feel warm and fuzzy about either of these people, i will hold my public criticism

however, in the case of mr. tillman - a freaking intelligent college superstar as stated in other posts - both athletically and academically - he joined up full well knowing what he was getting into - he enlisted in dr. stangelove's military with his eyes wide open. he purposefully and knowingly joined an organization under leadership that has no purpose but to ensure perpetual war. it completely pisses me off when people like him help the bfee endanger my and my family's safety (because when it comes right down to it, who really gives a damn about all the afgani's and iraqi's we are killing - gotta think about myself first) by spawning the next another generation of terrorists.

if he was a real american hero (and i'd be willing to go along with the premise that he's just another victim of the bfee too, but that's not what i'm hearing in 95% of the posts here) - he would have gone and worked for peace and justice - like that american girl (sorry, forgot her name) who was killed by the israeli bulldozer standing up for the rights ofthe palestani's - now there's a real patriotic american hero!
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #86
116. You'd Be Amazed
Edited on Sun Apr-25-04 09:27 AM by Crisco
Those who didn't consider LIHOP or MIHOP an option considered going into Afghanistan a necessity. *Even those who loathe Bush* could separate their feelings for the misadministration from what they saw as an obligation.

The US helped give Tillman an apparently great education, and the opportunity to play in the NFL. He was succeeding wildly and it was our national infrustructure that enabled this along with whatever sweat he put into it.

Tillman asked what he could do for his country, even if it may not have been the country he thought it was.

And now, that very admirable quality is going to be exploited in his death in ways he refused to allow, in life. Exploited by the pro-war hunta who will hold him up as a shining example, and exploited by the anti-war faction who will describe his death as senseless and portray him as a fool.

The larger tragedy is, going by the descriptions of how Tillman lived his life, he was someone who could have contributed much more had he not joined up.
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #116
117. why was going into afghanistan a necessity?
when 9-11 was a saudi-financed and -peopled operation?

or why wasn't military action necessary against oklahoma after timothy mcveigh's antics?

in any event, as has been stated over and over, mr. tillman was brilliant - therefore the "i'm just a dumbass, naive kid who wants to serve my country (and get a college education)" defense surely can't apply to him. how could such an intelligent person volunteer to go to afghanistan to continue inflicting decades-old pattern of misery (as i've outlined below in post #115 of this thread)?

but that's all history, so let's recount what mr. bush - in a totally predictably manner based on his past records of fucking up everything he touches (once again, how could the incredibly brilliant mr. tillman not have known who he was joining up with?) - has accomplished in afghanistan:

1. The Convoy of Death

It tells the story of thousands of prisoners who surrendered to the US militarys Afghan allies after the siege of Kunduz. According to eyewitnesses, some three thousand of the prisoners were forced into sealed containers and loaded onto trucks for transport to Sheberghan prison. Eyewitnesses say when the prisoners began shouting for air, U.S.-allied Afghan soldiers fired directly into the truck, killing many of them. The rest suffered through an appalling road trip lasting up to four days, so thirsty they clawed at the skin of their fellow prisoners as they licked perspiration and even drank blood from open wounds.

Witnesses say that when the trucks arrived and soldiers opened the containers, most of the people inside were dead. They also say US Special Forces re-directed the containers carrying the living and dead into the desert and stood by as survivors were shot and buried. Now, up to three thousand bodies lie buried in a mass grave.

The film has sent shockwaves around the world. It has been broadcast on national television in Britain, Germany, Italy and Australia. It has been screened by the European parliament. It has outraged human rights groups and international human rights lawyers. They are calling for investigation into whether U.S. Special Forces are guilty of war crimes.

But most Americans have never heard of the film. Thats because not one corporate media outlet in the U.S. will touch it. It has never before been broadcast in this country.


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3267.ht...

Airlifting the "real terrorists" out of Afghanistan

On November 25th, the Northern Alliance took Kunduz, capturing some four thousand of the Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters. The next day, President Bush said, "We're smoking them out. They're running, and now we're going to bring them to justice."

Even before the siege ended, however, a puzzling series of reports appeared in the Times and in other publications, quoting Northern Alliance officials who claimed that Pakistani airplanes had flown into Kunduz to evacuate the Pakistanis there. . . . American intelligence officials and high-ranking military officers said that Pakistanis were indeed flown to safety, in a series of nighttime airlifts that were approved by the Bush Administration. The Americans also said that what was supposed to be a limited evacuation apparently slipped out of control, and, as an unintended consequence, an unknown number of Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters managed to join in the exodus.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020128fa_FACT


3. Pilots on drugs killing our allies

Four Canadian soldiers died in Afghanistan last night after a US fighter jet mistakenly dropped one or two 500lb, laser-guided bombs on their unit.
Canadian officials said at least eight of their soldiers were wounded in the incident, which occurred during a well publicised live-fire training exercise near the southern town of Kandahar.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,6863...


4. Killing more innocent afghani civilians than were killed in 9-11

http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm


5. But on the positive side, agriculture is making a comeback, with certain crops at record high levels . . .

Poppy crop highest ever in Afghanistan


By Anwar Iqbal
UPI South Asian Affairs Analyst


WASHINGTON, March 1 (UPI) -- Afghanistan had the highest-ever cultivation of opium poppy in 2003 despite the government's effort to curb narcotics, a U.S. government agency reported Monday.

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20040301-054323-1...

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Champ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Bloodthirsty maniac? Whatever
Edited on Fri Apr-23-04 10:11 PM by Champ
You don't even know him. Yet you think he is a bloodthirsty maniac. Yeah as an Arizona State fan he looked like that stereotypical linebacker. Long hair, probaly was a dirty player, etc. But I was blown away when I meant him, he is anything BUT bloodthirsty. He graduated from Arizona State in 3 years with a 3.83 GPA, we was in a couple of classes with my grandma and very nice, very mature, Bruce Snyder said he was the most mature freshman he ever coached. When September 11th happen, even though he got the last scholarship at Arizona State and was named Pac-10 Defensive player of the year and not to mention Pac-10 academic player of the year, he was the last one picked by the Arizona Cardinals and started briefly at Free Safety till North Carolina State standout Adrian Wilson beat him out he still feel like he done nothing for this country. He wanted to do something about the 3,000+ lives, so did alot of people. Which is why blood donations and red cross donations were the highest in history. Hell he even turned down a 9 million contract with St. Louis because he felt like he had to stay with Arizona because they gave him a chance. Anyone that would turn down cash to do something he felt was a greater cause is a great human being, when he was signed by Arizona he got a very small signing bonus. You know what he did, he got an apartment near the facility and rode his bike to work, an NFL player. He has the biggest heart and dignity out of any person I have ever met, that is saying alot. He has much more dignity then all you insensitive people here, this is a HUGE loss. It is sad to realize you will never set foot on this earth again, as soon as I get $20 dollars the first thing I'm buying is tickets to Nov. 13th Arizona State vs Washington State game so in some way I can pay my thanks to him. If it wasn't for him, Redmond, Poole, Plummer, and the rest of the 1996 Arizona State Sun Devils who I had season tickets for, I don't think I'd ever be interested in football. Those 4 players played the game with the heart and determination it was meant to be played with, Tillman is a man with a excellent values and is anything but a bloodthirsty maniac.
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bushbegone04 Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #56
70. Tillman is a role model and hero for the young people
In this country. It's about time someone chose honor and dignity over fame and fortune. I mean, unfortunately he was KIA but did so with clear conscience.

More kids today need to realize it's not all about money all the time.
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AtTheEndOfTheDay Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #70
119. Some role model
"I want to be a great American just like Tillman. Better run down to the enlistment office and sign up." He obviously lacked critical thinking skills and he paid for it. Darwin's theory in action.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #56
102. And just like Viet-Nam
He died for NeoCon corporate profit and Brown and Root.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #46
79. Thank you SO much...
for that wonderful <sarcasm> diatribe. I'm sure the Freepers or others of their ilk will use it as proof that ALL Democrats are full of shit.

Frankly, I don't like being tarred with the same brush that's applicable to you.
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nagbacalan Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #46
97. write on
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #40
54. No, Pat Tillman and all of the other Americans killed in Afghanistan and..
...Iraq are dead because of the lies told by Junior and his NeoCon buddies.

There were no WMDs in Iraq, Al Qaeda was not working with Iraq, and it has NEVER been proven that ANYONE based in Afghanistan took part in the attacks on 911 because there is NO paper trail of any kind to make that association.

You're way off base, bud.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #54
82. Uh huh...
If there's no evidence that there were terrorists in Afghanistan, why did Clinton launch cruise missile strikes against terrorist training camps there?

Or was Clinton part of the Neocon conspiracy?
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #82
85. good point!
one that sean hannity makes daily, btw

the clinton worship at the site is baffling - just because he pandered to the neocons (there are new yorker articles on this topic) that hardly makes what he did right or moral
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #85
89. Deleted message
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #85
99. I wouldn't know...
I don't watch Hannity, as you so obviously do.

As for the "Clinton Worship", he was a GREAT Democratic President. Sure, he had some personal flaws, but I'd rate his performance as President as excellent. Considering that this is DEMOCRATIC Underground, I don't think that's out of place. Saying he was a "panderer", on the other hand, strikes me as strangely reminiscent of another notoriously anti-Clinton website that is the antithesis of this one.
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #99
103. a great DEMOCRATIC president?
by losing both the house and senate? yeah whatever.

my other comments were based in part on the article "a case not closed" in the new yorker by that firebrand wingnut windbag seymour hersh regarding clinton's bombing of bagdad in response to the supposed plot be saddam to assinate 41.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/content/?020930fr_arch...

a few quotes:

Three of the million-dollar missiles missed their target and landed on nearby homes, killing eight civilians, including Layla al-Attar, one of Iraq's most gifted artists. The death toll was considered acceptable by the White House;

my own investigations have uncovered circumstantial evidence, at least as compelling as the Administration's, that suggests that the American government's case against Iraqas it has been outlined in public, anywayis seriously flawed

The Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post were among the many newspapers that praised the President's firm leadership in the aftermath of the bombing of Baghdad and his willingness to send potential adversaries a message of American resolve. "Mr. Clinton is learning on the job," the Journal said. The newspaper was not reflecting the reality of White House decision-making, however, but merely praising a decision that it and other newspapers had been manipulated to help bring about.

go ahead and read the entire article and then tell me clinton wasn't "pandering" to the neocon nutso's.



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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #103
109. Heh...I'm sorry Clinton wasn't "pure" enough for you....
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 08:31 PM by DoNotRefill
but I think that puts you way far out on the lunatic fringe. You probably thought Carter was a fascist. :tinfoilhat:
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #109
114. it's fairly self evident that clinton is vastly preferable to bush
Edited on Sun Apr-25-04 08:43 AM by treepig
or carter to reagan, for that matter.

but, beyond these basics, it's not clear why you'd want to stick you head in the sand (or where ever else) and give carter and clinton a huge pass on their atrocities.

to me, it's just not forgiveable that clinton sacrificed the lives of 500,000 iraqi children (see http://www.harpers.org/CoolWar.html?pg=1 )so he could appear "tough" to the neaderthal right wingers of this country.

to me, it's just as unforgivable that carter initiated the unholy alliance with the mujahideen that ultimately led to 9-11 (see blurb below). sure, maybe carter thought he was doing the "right thing" at the time - but the bottom line is that you don't just go fuck up somebody else's country like it was your own personal life-and-death playground and not expect consequences - in the case of carter the consequences were two decades in coming. in the case of bush 43 and his will lackeys, such as mr. tillman, the consequences will no doubt also be a long time in coming - but come they will. to me somebody who jeopardizes the safety of the usa is a traitor, not a patriot.


http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Afghanistan/Afghanist...

In a candid 1998 interview, Zbigniew Brezinski, Carter's national security adviser, confirmed that U.S. aid to the rebels began before the (USSR's) invasion:

According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the mujahideen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan December 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: indeed, it was July 3, 1979, that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.... We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would....

That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap.... The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam War."
The Carter administration was well aware that in backing the mujahideen it was supporting forces with reactionary social goals, but this was outweighed by its own geopolitical interests. In August 1979, a classified State Department report bluntly asserted that "the United States' larger interest...would be served by the demise of the Taraki-Amin regime, despite whatever setbacks this might mean for future social and economic reforms in Afghanistan." That same month, in a stunning display of hypocrisy, State Department spokesperson Hodding Carter piously announced that the U.S. "expects the principle of nonintervention to be respected by all parties in the area, including the Soviet Union."

so what are the effect's of mr. carter's geopolitical games (i.e., luring the russians into the "afghani trap") on the afghani people?

The Soviet occupation, which lasted from 1979 to 1989, left more than a million people dead. Millions still live in refugee camps More than 500,000 orphans are disabled. Ten million land mines still litter the country, killing an average of 90 people per month. At 43 years, life expectancy in Afghanistan is on average 17 years lower than that for people in other developing countries. The countryside is devastated and is currently experiencing a severe drought, with 7.5 million people threatened with starvation.


if caring about some of the world's more unfortunate peoples puts me on the lunatic fringe - then that's where i'll proudly be!

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #114
121. Very well-said. I fully agree.
No one gets a pass just because they have a D after their name. Blind fealty is what Freepers do. I'll stand with the unfortunate peoples of the world against anyone - ANYONE - who hurts them.

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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #82
88. Read my post again...
...and read my other posts in this thread and then tell me again that OBL and Al Qaeda were definitely responsible for 911. The only way anyone can believe that is by believing that the NeoCons are telling us the truth about 911.

If OBL and Al Qaeda were actually responsible for 911, why did OBL initially DENY responsibility? Why would he not accept responsibility for 911 as he had for all of the other terrorist acts in which he had been involved?

Why do you insist on putting words in my posts that are plainly not there? I have never stated that OBL never had training camps in Afghanistan. I also never stated that Clinton did not try to kill OBL on more than one instance for terrorist attacks for which OBL claimed responsibility. If you can find anything that supports your rather deceptive comments, please post the proof.

Here's another question for you...if we knew where OBL was based in Afghanistan, and we most certainly did, why did we choose to invade and occupy the entire country instead of just taking out the camps and the people in them with a special forces action? Why did we allow the Pakistanis to send in airplanes to supposedly fly out their people which also resulted in the escape of OBL and Al Qaeda, when Al Qaeda was surrounded?

Additionally, since it's been stated many times publicly that Al Qaeda was a network of terrorists located in more than 60 countries, why did we choose to exercise a full-blown military option against the entire country of Afghanistan instead of going after the entire network using special forces and other means? Why did we then divert the bulk of our capabilities and invade Iraq, a country with absolutely no link to Al Qaeda, and no WMDs?

But hey, if you want to cling to the belief that the 911 "official story" is correct as told to us by the NeoCons, feel free to do so.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #88
101. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 05:52 PM
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. ok, i seriously hope you're not a victim of the next generation
of terrorists spawned by this "patriot" and his comrades

geezus - who in their right mind would ever think that joining rumsfeld's insane killing machine was patriotic?

and i'm the one being called a moron
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SideshowScott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #43
75. I second what Rummythedummy said!.
Treepig your callous statements really need to be checked. I disagree with you so much that I will go as far to say that people like you are the ones that give the peace movement a bad name.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
44. Deleted message
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
49. treepig, Jeff Benedict doesn't know his head from his arse
American Indians nationwide are still attempting to reverse the damage done by Jeff Benedict's factually incorrect screed about the Mashantucket Pequot Tribe of Connecticut. He sucks as a researcher and what's worse, he got the law wrong, too--a poor showing for a lawyer, I might add. He has, however, profited both monetarily and politically by fostering ignorant racism against American Indians in New England.

Unless that fellow's research skills have improved a hundredfold since trashing Indians, I wouldn't trust that guy's book as far as I could explosively evacuate it from my bowels. Benedict is proof positive that Democrats can be ignorant assholes, too.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #33
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:17 PM
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Champ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
36. This is sad
Edited on Fri Apr-23-04 05:18 PM by Champ
I remember him from his playing days at Arizona State, the 1996 season I had season tickets where him, Jr Redmond, Jake Plummer, and Keith Poole led them to an undefeated season and a Rose Bowl appearence. I was then happy when he became an Arizona Cardinal because he got to stay close to home with his family and his brothers. In college he didn't even have a car, he rode a bike. When he got an NFL contract it didn't change him at all, he got an ordinary car and wasn't wearing shit that was costing too much.
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Braden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
37. This ASU Alum is very proud to count Pat Tillman among us.
May you rest in peace.

Thank You.

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SKKY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
41. Our country has been weakened today...
It's people like Pat Tillman that make this country and our Armed Forces the best in the world and it's the true heros like him have defined America from its birth. I take a tremendous amount of pride in saying I served in the same military as him. This is so very sad.
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
45. Colonel William Orlando Darby is Proud.
And welcomed him to Ranger here after.

Hoo-RAH, Pat!
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
48. Oddly, Tilman, a guy who rode his bike to work, dies in oil war.
I heard on NPR that he was a real down-to-earth guy, never moved by money, and he rode his bike to work.

Sort of makes him the opposite of the pigs for whose bottom lines and profits and wealth he died.
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Just an opinion
It is horrible that Pat Tillman was killed. He was quite a individual. He lived his life by his rules. He worked hard in school, got the last scholarship on the team, and rode a bike to campus where he excelled. On the field he was complete inspiration.

He then got on with the Cardinals, and was THE crowd favorite, as the team would debase itself game after game, under a brutal southern sun. He was not pretentious, and was a person of his word. He was offered more money by another team, but stayed with the Cardinals out of loyalty. This itself was inexplicable at the time for a team that would and still does not deserve that kind of loyalty by anyone. Tillman did this though.

That was Pat Tillman. Honor and doing what was right. He wanted to serve his country, he did magnificently.

Our county is now ruled by the opposite. Men who know no shame or honor. No shame sending people who believe in a cause, or are hesitant about it to their death. They have their own agenda. As Tillman did not give any interviews or want any special treatment in life, the monsters that prowl in the Whitehouse, now can revel in the publicity of his death, and how much they can gain. McCain wasted no time to put his puss on the air, and the state/corporate airwaves are interviewing and sticking a mike into every person who had known him. He wanted no difference in the way he was treated, he repeated that. Would he approve of the way his death is being covered? We will never know. We do know that Chimpy and his gang are figuring out the finer points of how this will help them. Crass? You KNOW Rove has a group on it working.

He died for his country. Was he right or wrong to be there? You make that decision. He was one person. There are many more over there now, and we know the lies now; does that make the men and women over there wrong or right? They were lied to as we were, and we would serve us and our country the best by getting Kerry in the Whitehouse, and getting the national nightmare over with the truths of the past exposed.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. just to be clear...
...that was the point I was trying to make.

It is interesting how different Tillman was as a person, compared to the corporations and politicians who benefit the most from his service and his death.
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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #51
71. Will Bush be able to pull off a speech praising Tillman's altruism,
a quality Bush himself most clearly lacks?
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DemsAreBack Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #48
59. He was a true hero and a brave man
Any attempt to use his death politically should be honored with scorn.
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DemsAreBack Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #48
60. He died in Afghanistan...not Iraq
Nice try. Afghanistan is about the terrorists that killed 3000 in NYC.

Why try to sully his heroics with Oil?
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Are you saying that you have proof that Afghanistan was...
...involved in 911? That's interesting because the FBI doesn't have any evidence to support that:

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >
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DemsAreBack Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. sigh...
No, I'm not saying that. Any intelligent person could see that.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #64
90. Oh, good....instead of actually answering the question,....
...you choose to make a very weak attempt at being personally insulting. Is that the best you can do on either issue...answering my post, or being insulting?

That's pretty sad, IMHO.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #63
81. Bill Clinton....
felt there was enough evidence of terrorists being in Afghanistani training camps that he ordered a cruise missile strike on them.

I don't trust Bush. I DO trust Clinton.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #81
91. As I've never denied or stated otherwise, Clinton had solid reasons...
...to strike at the Al Qaeda bases and OBL himself. Additionally, OBL had stated that he was responsible for previous terrorist acts against the U. S. which prompted the U. S. response. I also trusted Clinton to make the right decisions and have never said otherwise, have I?

What I continue to state quite clearly, something you seem to be unable to comprehend for whatever reason, is the fact that OBL intially DENIED responsibility for 911 when he had always claimed responsibility for his attacks in the past. It was only later, after he had realized that 911 was a tremendous aid to Al Qaeda recruiting, that he actually stated that he was responsible.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #91
100. So, OBL eventually claimed responsibility for 9/11...
but he MUST be lying, is that it?

I'm glad you understand OBL's mind so well.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #60
73. Afghanistan is about a pipeline from the oilfields north of Afghanistan to
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 02:23 AM by AP
the market of 1 billion people in India (also).

You know Karzai used to be a Unocal advisor, right?

Tillman was also in Iraq, by the way.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #60
74. I'm not sullying anything he did. I'm saying he's a way better
person than the people who will profit the most from his actions and his death.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
62. Wow!!!.......All for oil and the American way????
So sad.......he's in a peacful place now.
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osaMABUSh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
66. BTW, why don't we see a total death count in Iraq/Afgan?
It seems we get a running total on the (700+) deaths in Iraq but barely is a word mentioned of those killed in Afgan. I know it is much less but they are still American soldiers dying.

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Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
67. Pat Tillman was a patriot in the truest sense of the word.
In an era of chickenhawks he was a rare breed indeed. A throwback to people like Ted Williams, Clark Gable and Jimmy Stewart who did not have to answer our country's call because of their elite position but did so anyhow

While I don't agree with the invasion of Iraq taking the war to Al Qaida in Afghanistan was one of the few things I think the Bush administration did right. However, the fact is if the Bush administration had chosen to concentrate on Afghanistan instead of getting distracted by Iraq Tillman might still be alive today.

God bless Pat Tillman and an emphatic FUCK YOU to George W Bush and his chickenhawk chronies
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SideshowScott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #67
72. Very Well Said!
I agree %100 that Tillman was a true American and Patriot. He could have not served and led a very finacaly comfortable but hard working life of the Sports Star but served for a cause to get the people who attacked us.

Rest in peace Pat Tillman
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terrierist Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #67
122. He may have been a terrific guy but
boy, was he bewildered. He swallowed the fighting for democracy bs hook, line & sinker.
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Citizen Kang Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
68. The callousness and lack of compassion of some...
during this time of tragedy is truly sickening. We can disagree about how this war is being waged and the actions of our president, but to show absolutely no compassion for man who gave his life for his country, who gave up millions and millions of dollars to fight for something he believed in is something I expect from chickenhawk repuke pieces of shit, not members of this forum.

To those of you who have shown absolutely no respect or compassion about this tragic death, go fuck yourself you worthless human piles of excrement.

Godspeed Pat.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #68
76. I must agree with you, Citizen Kang. Pat Tillman was a Patriot.
Pat Tillman didn't want this mass-media craze over his service, and passing. He wanted anything but. His service was an example of what anonymity, selflessness and sacrifice actually looks like.

We're not getting any leadership from Washington, so I think I'll take my cue from Pat Tillman. He's a hero, he's the real deal, and if I were a kid in school, I'd hang a picture of him in my locker.
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NMLobo Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
69. LIHOP/MIHOP???
First I have no doubt about Tillman's sincerety and patriotism, and my blood boils with anger, rage and sadness over his and all the other soldier's deaths as well as the innocent civilians.

That said he was the highest profile soldier fighting "the war on terror".

If the BFEE is willing to sacrifice 3000 human beings on 9/11 why not just one more to hopefully/desperately give a patriotic "bump" to the idiots in charge of said war???

I'm not sure what I think yet but it's food for thought.
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scarface2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #69
104. ohhh me so macho...
watch me kill some brown skinned people, oops i m dead!!!!
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notbush Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:18 AM
Response to Original message
77. Kick
Kick,because I worry about some of the tin-foil.
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DavidFL Donating Member (236 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #77
80. Tin foil?
You might want to start by working through this: http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timelin...

It should leave you with more questions than answers. And in case your skeptical, it's a timeline contructed entirely from major, credible news sources about events from the time the CIA started funding bin Laden and the mujahadeen after the Soviets invaded Afghanistan up until the present.

Also, it's been documented by many journalists, including Greg Palast, that Karzai and the current U.S. envoy to Afghanistan were advisors to Unocal. It's also known that the U.S. government was heavily involved in negotiations on behalf of U.S. oil companies with the Taliban for some time before Sept. 11th to construct a pipeline through the country. Further, when the Taliban wouldn't agree to the U.S.'s proposals they were threatened with "a carpet of gold or a carpet of bombs." There's also plenty of news stories out there from credible sources that the U.S. government was warned by Israel, Jordan, Russia and several other countries in the weeks before Sept. 11th that an attack was going to take place on U.S. soil. And don't forget the 8/6/01 PDB.
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No Passaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
92. RIP
You'll be missed.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
105. Bush may show up for his funeral and photo op
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
107. I'm all chocked up...
Heading over to Free Republic to offer my condolences. They're taking this just as badly. True hero, patriot and all that shit...

I'm sure the innocent Afghans who had NOTHING to do with 9-11 are just as choked up that the NFL lost such a hero.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. Heading over to Free Republic don't bother
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 08:13 PM by saigon68
This is what they say about this thread

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1123713/posts

To: threat matrix
Compare his sacrifice to the behavior of Bill Clinton and John Kerry concerning anything military. Tillman was a hero. Clinton and Kerry were and are cowards. All three of Kerry's "purple hearts" can't even begin to compare with the purple heart won by Tillman and all of the others who have given the ultimate sacrifice for this country. And, as for Clinton, the Colonel Holmes letter tells it all.

posted on 04/24/2004 10:58:26 AM PDT by Swede Girl


To: freedumb2003; Valin
After reading their dialogue (besides feeling nauseous) all I can say is these scum proove drug use is on the rise in America and that drugs do permanent brain damage.

They aren't fit to lick Hero's like Ranger Tillman's boots or walk the ground he walked on.

posted on 04/24/2004 5:28:32 PM PDT by Vets_Husband_and_Wife (UNITED we STAND,... DIVIDED we FALL. God Bless our troops!)


To: threat matrix
Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood.

posted on 04/24/2004 9:24:59 AM PDT by Ramonan (Compare the Circumstances)


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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. Oh, gag me!
To: threat matrix
Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood.

posted on 04/24/2004 9:24:59 AM PDT by Ramonan (Compare the Circumstances)


I think I'll go throw up now. That is the most hideously scary thing I have heard all day!
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PfcHammer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #108
111. belch.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #108
112. That Quote from Ramonan Is Spoken By
someone who's only association with battle has been the comfort of his parent's basement while playing a video game or reading a Tom Clancy novel.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. Upon review its PATTON'S according to him
I don't know ===I don't have time to compare the supposed ramblings of Patton to IRAQ-NAM
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #107
115. here's a description of the afghanistan of late 2001
that mr. tillman "patiotically" volunteered to go inflict more misery upon:

The U.S. war on Afghanistan is a brutal attack on a country that has already been almost destroyed by more than 20 years of foreign invasion and civil war.' The Soviet occupation, which lasted from 1979 to 1989, left more than a million people dead. Millions still live in refugee camps More than 500,000 orphans are disabled. Ten million land mines still litter the country, killing an average of 90 people per month. At 43 years, life expectancy in Afghanistan is on average 17 years lower than that for people in other developing countries. The countryside is devastated and is currently experiencing a severe drought, with 7.5 million people threatened with starvation. The death and destruction wrought by the U.S. bombing campaign-and the cut off of food aid deliveries it has caused-have already killed hundreds and produced thousands more refugees scrambling to escape into Pakistan.

But not only is Washington attacking one of the poorest countries in the world, past U.S. government actions are in no small part responsible for the current situation in Afghanistan. The Bush administration claims to be targeting Osama bin Laden, who it says masterminded the September 11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon (even though it has offered no concrete evidence to back up this accusation), and Afghanistan's Taliban government, which is sheltering him. But as the Economist magazine noted soon after September 11, " policies in Afghanistan a decade and more ago helped to create both Osama bin Laden and the fundamentalist Taliban regime that shelters him." An examination of this history will reveal the extent to which U.S. foreign policy is based on hypocrisy, realpolitik, and the short-term pursuit of narrow interests.

more . . .

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Afghanistan/Afghanist...
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #115
118. Thanks Treepig. Sadly football heroes & freepers don't care re details
Edited on Sun Apr-25-04 12:22 PM by Tinoire
Unfortunately "football heroes" don't seem to care about such details.

Kill them all and let God sort them out seems to be their freeper motto.


Somewhere in Afghanistan, I am sure the presence of one guilty person justifies all the horrors visited upon it by "heroes" like Jock Tillman (this according to our 'progressive' friends at FR).

Jeez. How the Germans must have wept for the flower of their Nazi youth felled by "rebel" forces who hated them for their freedoms. Nazi youths who also enlisted to 'protect' their freedoms.

... the fallen Soldier, hero, who paid the ultimate sacrifice for our freedoms.

Sgt Tillman is a hero not because he walked away from the Cardinals, but because of where he walked to. He like all the rest of the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Airmen, and Coast guardsmen volunteered to put himself between the bad guys and our way of life and fight for its preservation. Rest In Peace Sgt Tillman, your service to our nation is an inspiration and you will not be forgotten.

http://www.sgthook.com /


I am so fucking proud of our murderers :) Killing for freedom! Onward Christian soldiers!

Please... Treepig... Excuse me as I try to staunch the crocodile tears. :tears: :crocodile tears:

My prayer? That the Afghans and Iraqis mow down as many of these Bush-supporting, flag-waving fools as they can WHILE passing over, pass-over style, all the righteous young people who were shipped over there without having a word to say on the matter.

This new DU will have to forgive me for not breaking out in tears over this crap.

======

Release of Senator Jon Kyl

Sen. Kyl Saddened by Death of Pat Tillman
Former Arizona Cardinals Player A True American Hero

Friday, April 23, 2004

WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Senator Jon Kyl (R-AZ) released the following statement upon hearing news that former Arizona Cardinals player Pat Tillman was killed in action in Afghanistan:
Pat Tillman is a great American hero in the truest sense. My deepest sympathies are with his family. He had already given up so much, including an extraordinary football career and loving family, to fight for his country in the war on terrorism. His patriotism and courage are an inspiration and we are grateful for his ultimate sacrifice. Pats memory is going to be a part of the Arizona tradition for a long time to come.


http://republican.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Home....

===

That's right, Bush is your Lord and Savior. He died on the cross and was resurrected. His Second Coming was unto Our Father in Heaven, who fixed the almighty 2000 elections for Your Salvation. Bush forever and ever, amen.

"I beg all young republicans to follow Pat Tillman's example. If you are an old republican, please insist that your children do as has done. Please.

BUSH FOREVER!"



http://www.craigslist.org/sfc/pol/29532349.html


Please excuse me while I puke.

The guy was a freeper! Will these "NEW" DUers shed as many tears if that ass-hole Ted Nugent goes over there and gets killed?

I certainly will NOT.

My tears are for the innocent Afghans, the innocent Iraqis, and the innocent DU-related soldiers over there.

I have

No sympathy for freepers & Bush supporters.



Does anybody here give a rat's ass about Mari333's son? Or Irate Citizen? Or any of the countless DUers over there? Naw, I didn't think so but let some moronic Bush-loving freeper football hero die and certain people crawl out of the woodwork weeping, gnashing their teeth and wringing their hands.

Well weep, wail, wring your hands and glorify this same "fabulous" cause which will get thousands more Americans to get slaughtered as they follow the steps of their drunk-Bush-loving football hero.

God bless all the war-mongerers!

Forgive me if I excuse myself from this jerk fest and go :puke:

Is this really my, our party anymore? I don't recognize it anymore. The views represented in this thread do NOT speak for me; never, ever, will I do ANYTHING to endorse them & that includes voting for people who glorify this nonsense. Onward Christian Soldiers!

Skipper is dead! I'm alive! Maggie the cat is alive! I am alive, alive! I am alive!"

:puke:

Not one effing thread for a NORMAL American kid butchered over there for Bush's evil war but let some Fottball hero be touched and it's an effing scandal.

The scandal is that there are so many people here who have forgotten the democratic value that ALL lives are equal- TO INCLUDE THE LIVES OF INNOCENT AFGHANS WHO HAVE NO IDEA WHY FREEPERS LIKE TILLMAN ARE DESTROYING THEIR COUNTRY.
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