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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 09:56 AM
Original message
Dean:Death To Osama
Moderators: This is a 12 hour old newslink which contains information NOT contained in either news story in yesterday's latest breaking news. In fact, one article from yesterday has Dean saying the following "it's premature to recommend what penalty Osama bin Laden should face before he's been legally determined to be guilty of the Sept. 11 terror attacks:.

This is important because Dean now says he wants Osama to get the Death Penalty... and the Hague does not use the Death Penalty. In trying to limit fallout from his previous statements regarding Osama... Dean has made it a bit harder for him, if elected, to try Osama in the Hague.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/26/politics/main...

Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean said he wants Osama bin Laden to get the death penalty, seeking to minimize fallout from a New Hampshire newspaper story in which he was quoted as saying the terror leaders guilt should not be prejudged.

snip

The former Vermont Governor... said he was simply trying to state in The Concord Monitor interview published Friday that the process of trying bin Laden needs to be fair and credible.

In that interview, Dean was quoted as saying. "I still have this old-fshioned notion that even people with like Osama, who is very likely to be found quilty, we should do our best not to prejudge trial juries."

Dean told the AP in a phone interview that sentiment doesn't mean he sympahtizes in any way with the al Qaeda leader. "I'm just like every other American, I think the guy is outrageous, he said".

As a President, I have to defend the process of the rule of law, but as an American, I want to make sure he gets the death penalty he dsererves", Dean told the AP.
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November 2004 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. Where's yesterday's thread
about one candidate's supporters giving another candidate's supporters flip flops for Christmas?

Does Dean have one solidified position on anything? :eyes:

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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. He will have to do more than that to beat bush, who said

"no need for evidence, we know he's guilty."

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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. WTF? So is he for or against the Hague?
I like the guy, but this stream of conciousness candidacy of his is going to give me a heart attack
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
41. OBL is outrageous - has to die!
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/story/149573p-...
"I'm just like every other American, I think the guy is outrageous," he insisted.
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. Crikey
Why doesn't he say he'd kill him for Jesus with his bare hands?
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November 2004 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. To #'s 3 and 4
:grouphug:


:yourock: :yourock:
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dodgerartful Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
5. more bashing......all of this is so not in the picture
geez, whats going on here? Bash this guy, bash that guy-over something that is so far into the future and so undecided! Amazing that very few here are seeing the big picture. Very bushy if you ask me.....
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. How Is Posting A News Article About A Candidate
containing information relevant to how he would function as regards matters of International Justice "bashing"?

Where Osama is tried had implications in how we will combat terrorism.

That Dean had to clarify his earlier statement is also indicative of how he will weather his media appearances in the future, both as a Candidate and also as POTUS, if elected.

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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I'm usually the first one to dismiss the typical Dean bashing...
but I need to know the answer to this. Recognition & respect for International Law a big issue for me (and the Dems' best foreign policy arguement). My continued support of Dean depends on a clear answer. I liked the one he gave to the Concord paper much better.
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AliceWonderland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. This is not about Dean at all
No matter how the pro- or anti- camps spin it. This is about the state of the American political system: this should not even be a controversy, and I am deeply disturbed that it is. (Not that I'm surprised; I remember when at one point, it became controversial, even here in some cases, to state that you found torture and the practice of rendering repulsive.) There are some "finer" points of human and civil rights that many people don't seem to like. If rights only exist for nice people, then they're not rights. I've come to the conclusion that an awful lot of people in this country hate their own system of government, and they're usually the ones who scream the loudest that they're proud 'Muricans.
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Dr. Wu Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
7. Osama is "outrageous"? Rush Limbaugh is outrageous...
But Osama is a murderer. WTH is Dean thinking? Why are we rushing to pick this man as our leader?
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November 2004 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Priorities!
:crazy:
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
31. Like Jem, he's truly truly truly outrageous.
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
8. It is pretty simple to me. I don't know why it is not for others.
Here is Dean's official statement (which is readily available on the Deanforamerica.org blog posted yesterday(

Statement by Governor Dean on Osama bin Laden
BURLINGTON -- Governor Dean issued the following statement today:

"I share the outrage of all Americans. Osama bin Laden has admitted that he is responsible for killing 3,000 Americans as well as scores of men, women and children around the world. This is exactly the kind of case that the death penalty is meant for.

"When we capture Osama bin Laden, he will be brought to justice and treated in the same manner that President Bush is recommending for Saddam Hussein."


He would be a prisoner of war and entitled to a trial.

I think, like many who believe that Osama is most likely the perp. of 9-11 (with or without LIHOP or MIHOP) that Dean believes - since he believes in the death penalty - that OIsama should fry.

Being against the death penalty and in favor of the Hague process -- I disagree with Bush and Dean on this issue.

Dean seems to want more info before coming down hard on a decision like whether the Haque is best or not. I think this indecisiveness hurts him.

But this is because I would prefer a trial at the Hague and not a military tribunal or Guantanamo trial procedure.

I doubt Dean would endorse that either.

But what Dean seems top be saying is that a transparent (open and public) trial is required that ensures fairness, due process and credibility of the process (which is Bush's stated position on Saddam)

THEN, he says, he would like to see him fried.

I disagree and am disappointed in this statement.

But I still support him 100%. The "props" to Bush cuts both ways and the Haque, in my opinion - is way the best option. Again, I oppose the death penalty and anyone who WANTS Osama to die after a fair trial (if he is presumably found guilty) would NOT support the Hague, I guess.

It is a good poll question, I think.

But Dean's position is not unreasonable. It is just too mushy and, damn it, political. Probably smart though.
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latebloomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Osama has "admitted he is responsible"??
When did THAT happen?

Link please, Doctor!
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neuvocat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
12. This is amazing.
Dean has managed to make a major verbal mis-step almost every single day for the last two weeks. It is absolutely amazing.
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dodgerartful Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. yeah, to heck with him
must be some kind of wishy washy politician...what I see here people is the bigger picture. There is no war on terrorism, its a sham, there is no reason to debate the sentencing of Osama, he will not be caught alive. There is no reason to think about how any of the candidates will behave in office, the big picture is getting chimp out. Period. If all we have to talk about is how awful the candidates are, we are done. The points about any candidates policies are futile at this time, a joke really, as there is alot of time between now and then. I dont care who gets elected, as long as it aint chimp. Period.
As to what we think is "outrageous" and "absolutely amazing"..mm, yeah, big picture type stuff. What a crock. I still think this board is comprised of lurking repukes. Thats the only explanation for any one attacking any one elses candidate.....
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. I agree and disagree
with your statements.

This is a primary and the dem candidates are battling.

Critiques like this DO help the Repukes to some degree but that does not mean that dems should be afraid to discuss our issues and differences over issues and candidates.

To me this is a mountain out of a molehill. To make it a big deal is silly and counterproductive.

I tend to think Dean is saying what most Americans feel and believe and this may just be his honest assessment: Dean believes Osama is guily as hell (if not completely for 9-11 then certainly for his other terror actions)and therefore should get the ultimate penalty. But due process and a fair trial is required: as Bush said: a trial that will withstand international scrutiny (though Bush seemed to almost choke on these aords imprinted in him by Rove et al - these are the buzzwords: "a process that will withstand international scrutiny". I agree that this must be so as Dean stated.


What that process is remains completely unclear: but if it is acceptable to the international community, then I would agree with it and so does Dean.

It is no big deal. No major flipflop. It is a rational and reasonable position.

To me the only real issue is prejudgment (which Dean is reluctant to make without a fair trial process - a good thing) and whether death should be the result.

It is like having someone's family member murdered or the Malvo trial: some of the victims will never be happy without the state sanctioned murder of the perpetrator.

Some will oppose the death penalty because it is wrong.

I wish Dean were against the death penalty, but he is not. I still think he is a hell of a lot better than anyone else who is viable on the issue of justice.


Of course all sorts lurk here and it is disheartening at times. But that is democracy.
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. IT is only amazing if you expect him to not be human
Dean offers his opinions and it "a,azes" you.

I am glad that Dean is not "perfectly scripted"

we have all sorts of conmtradications here at DU by posters all the time.

But to make this out to be a major misstep or that any of his statements are major missteps lately is to misunderstand one of the best qualities of Dean: he speaks his mind and he has honest opinions - not all of which are politically scripted or cxarefully crafted: he knows how he feels.

and most Americans agree with him on this.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Joe Trippi
Edited on Sat Dec-27-03 02:48 PM by creeksneakers2
Dean's campaign manager, was asked last week on a Sunday talk show about trying to get Howard to make fewer mistakes. Trippi replied, " No, we are going to let Howard be Howard." I don't agree with this attitude at all.

If Dean gets the nomination, these mistakes will hurt the Democrats. I think he ought to be more careful.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
15. In theory Dean is correct
But the American people are not adult enough to hear it. I am all for hanging Osama at Ground Zero in New York, but only after a fair trial.
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TheStateChief Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Right on BSG!
Edited on Sat Dec-27-03 01:15 PM by TheStateChief
But the American people are not adult enough to hear it. I am all for hanging Osama at Ground Zero in New York, but only after a fair trial.

You hit the nail on the head.

But I think it would have benefitted Dean to give his second answer first...
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. I'm sure someone can dig it up
but shortly after the 9/11 attacks Osama took responsibility for the attacks in a videotaped sequence that was repeated on tv stations all over the world.

Obviously, he was not flying one of the airplanes but his culpability is at least as clear as that of Milosevic in the Balkans. The difference is Milosevic denies his crimes; Osama rejoices in them.

This is truly a bad blunder for Dean in seeming to be even a little even-handed in dealing with OBL. The man has taken credit for the murder of over 3000 Americans, publically and with pride. If he is captured alive (which is hyper-extremely unlikely) he will shout his claims of culpability from the hilltops.

Dean should have said up front that he thought OBL should be executed and that, therefore, the Hugue was not an appropriate venue for any trial. He should keep in mind that no matter who he's talking to, the media is NOT his friend or ally, just an economic machine that looks at him as a means to sell papers.

Hell, even Clark figured that one out in a hurry.

The media is the enemy; you can't let your guard down for a moment.

Send the embeds packing while you have the chance.
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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. OBL taking credit for 9/11---link to transcript
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lightbulb Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. That tape was a fake - Osama has NEVER confessed
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westman Donating Member (239 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. If you believe this "whatreallyhappened" stuff,
then you must also believe that the Clinton's killed Vince Foster.
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joefree1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
18. Storm in a Teacup
Gee, Dean is making so many micro mistakes with his straight talking ways. Guess he'll get another couple of million in donations with this latest blunder.


Images from Dean Rocks the House of Blues, Hollywood
From wtmusic http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
From Joefree1 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Sideways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. GOP Trying To Stop His "They Really Like Me" Speech
So much vitriol and bullshit towards a candidate that just doesn't have a chance...er yeah right....hey memo to folks who haven't dealt with a bully before...they always try to tear apart their biggest opponent first. And they do it with complete pussy nonsense. That is why they are bullies because they lack the guts and smarts to be direct.

More Rovian aardvark shit. These guys are as useless as tits on a boar.

I hope Howard is making them piss blood.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. not just the GOP
The establishment Dems are scared witless too. ;-)

Julie
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soleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. crucifixtion
that's what usually happens to people who challenge the establishment.

Metaphorically and not.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. Kick
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
23. This sad medieval spectacle
The nation faces multiple crises, and what is the burning issue?

Whether Dean would off Osama here, abroad, without a trial, or wait for the Court TV camera. And the Clark choir, meanwhile, trying to outgun Dean: nyaah nyaah, my candidate is tougher on Osama than your candidate...

Pathetic! This is a distraction from the important matters.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. So Dean Can Only Deal With One Issue At A Time?
Ah, the soft bigotry of low expectations benefits Dean also... we need not expect him to grasp the importance of establishing and supporting Internatinal Law.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 04:01 AM
Response to Original message
26. Dean only wants to kill Osama once!
Bush wants to kill Osama over and over again! Slowly!

Vote Bush. Because death is too good for Emmanuel Goldstein.

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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
29. I am Adamantly opposed to the Death Penalty
It saddens me that any Democratic candidate would be a proponent of such a barbaric practice. America has a long ways to go IMHO.
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MarkTwain Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
32. This Crap....
... from the self-appointed presumed nominee, Dr. Dean, is just outrageous.

Not only do most agree that the Rove Cabal going to have a field day on a host of perceived left of center politics... but this waffling is just intellectually immature if not outright damn dumb and shows an utter lack of political sophistication. Karl and the boys are going to make a field day out of this type of "liberal indecision."

A national campaign is made up of specific, direct, concise answers that the American public, of limited attention and intelligence, can digest. Dr. Dean has and is failing miserably.

Shit. Here we go. Up to three right wing fundie fuckwads for the SCOTUS to infect us all and take this republic back fifty years for the next fifty.

Thanks, Dr. Dean. You smuck. Do the country a favor and drop the hell out of this race now.

Allow a General to take charge of a battle with which he is showing that he is imminently capable.

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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
33. This probably breaks LBN rules.
The headlines don't match.

Also, for what it's worth, I think Clark or Dean could kill OBL the idea. Bush, on the other hand, sustains OBL the idea. Bush and OBL need each other.

Killing OBL the man won't accomplish anything unless the idea is fought too. Think how suicide bombers would respond to Osama dying for the cause.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
34. Still a Dupe. Should be locked.
This doesn't contain new info either. I've seen this story *several* times on DU already.

the mods need to start dealing with the proliferation of dupes.
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ZenLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. The Alert button is very easy to use
Edited on Tue Dec-30-03 02:51 PM by ZenLefty
If you feel there is a proliferation of dupes, please hit Alert on the duplicative post. It's also helpful to send us a link to what you feel is the duplicated post.

EDIT: I've searched LBN for a duplicate of this article, but did not find one. If you know of one, then please let me know. Thanks.

ZenLefty
DU Moderator
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ZenLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
37. cryingshame, here is a link to the actual article
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/29/politics/main...

The link you have in your post is incorrect.
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GRClarkesq Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
39. Dean does not want OBL dead
but on the loose to say... Nov. 3 2004.
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aeon flux Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
40. I haven't seen any evidence that Osama is behind 9/11

if there's a link that shows otherwise, I'd sure like to see it.

The only thing we seem have is the Bush Co's word that Osama is THE ONE, whom so many here are so eager to accept unquestioningly in regard to 9/11.

Sorry, but words aren't good enough. Especially Dubya's word and especially not for something this important.
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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
42. So you all don't believe in due process?
Edited on Tue Dec-30-03 05:16 PM by Sean Reynolds
You think we shouldn't put bin Laden in trial if he's captured? You feel he should be killed on the spot, even though it's due process to go to trial and either be found innocent or guilty? Remember, it IS innocent until proven guilty. Hell, even Saddam will be put on trial and they'll have to prove him guilty before they can actually charge him.

I thought you liberals would be more supportive to the notion of innocent until proven guilty. I guess I was wrong. Or is it only because Dean said it? If it were Clark that stated bin Laden was innocent until proven guilty - would you clamp down on him like this?
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
44. In other words, Dean agrees with Joe Lieberman
NT
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
45. Dean had a chance to throw this back into the Reps faces
If OBL is soooooooooo guilty, then why is the Whitehouse doing everything possible to keep the public from knowing what happened on 911? What did they know, when did they know it, who benefited? If OBL's guilt is a forgone conclusion, then President Bush should be transparent on what he and his staff knew about OBL and his involvement in 911.

He could have turned the tables.
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