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bill Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:01 PM
Original message
NPR - Army officials confirm Uday and Qusay dead
Edited on Tue Jul-22-03 12:02 PM by bill
n/t

edit - heard at 12:55 EDT
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demdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good, I hope their father is not far behind.
.
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sirshack Donating Member (680 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I second that....
...bastards, everyone of them.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. The 12 year old kid they killed too? n/t
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demdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:14 PM
Original message
Unfortunate casualty of war.
Edited on Tue Jul-22-03 12:18 PM by demdave
When you are a criminal on the run and you decide to shoot it out with your 12 yr old son (I believe I heard it has someones son) in the house, whos fault is the death?


On edit....post 714...this one goes out to Joe Friday. Just the facts mam
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
16. Bush's fault
it's an illegal invasion
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Sirius_on Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
108. While I dont agree with the war, I doubt it was "Illegal"
I mean, who determines whats legal or illegal. You could say that Saddam beating prisoners is "illegal" too. Dont think that I for one minute that I think this capture justifies the war. I am just glad that those two tyrants are worm food now.

I feel total shame that we killed a 12 year old boy and Bush did it in our name. I wish there was a way we could let those people know that many of us dont stand for that crap.
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. You should really join us on some of the US casualty threads
Having been such a fanatical proponent of this bizarre misadventure. Or are they too sad?
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
23. there is only one person to blame here...
that is the aWol asshole occupying the oval office. He is to blame for every single death that has occured "on his watch".
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
110. Technically he is a deserter
Anything over 30 days is desertion.
30 and less is AWOL
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
26. What war? It was an illegal invasion of another sovereign nation.
Edited on Tue Jul-22-03 12:29 PM by NNN0LHI
Not a war. With your reasoning, or lack there of if you had an arrest warrant served on you at your home and the police killed your kid while doing so he or she would just be an unfortunate casualty stemming from your arrest. Does that sound like a good thing to you?

Don

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demdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. If I am a fugitive on the run and I engage in a shootout with police
in a house that I have my kid in....then it is my fault. It is not the fault of the police, or is that the argument you are making? Just as in Somalia, the gunmen that hid behind the women and children while firing at our troops were responsible for their deaths, not the troops that had to shoot through them in order to defend themselves.
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I AM SPARTACUS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. sad and pathetic - an illegal invasion has morphed in your mind
into a righteous police action...

oh, I forgot, as you wrote in post #4, you're just trying to get your posting numbers up...which I suppose makes your post that much more sad and pathetic...
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demdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Perhaps you can keep the threads straight
and also try reading the posts I am responding to. That might clear up your muddled thoughts.
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I AM SPARTACUS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. poor dave, when someone disagrees, they haven't read
your brilliance...you are on "pointless and automatic"...
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study_war_no_more Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
51. and what if gunmen
appear outside your house and declare you criminal and eliminate all legal apparatus and media outlets serve their own and then began to assinate at will any who oppose them? would you declare a jihad?
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corarose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
64. Then it's OK with you if the Drunken Bush Twins go down when Papa
Dumbya goes down?
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Set Donating Member (100 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #64
120. Sure...just as soon as we have some evidence...
that they control government agencies that are killing Americans (or anybody else for that matter) for shits and giggles....

YES, we apparently killed Saddam's sons. However, Saddam's sons controlled large parts of the Iraqi government, and had a whole mess of crimes against humanity attributed to them. They could have surrendered and faced a war crimes tribunal, but instead chose to die with guns in their hands.

The Bush twins are very possibly alcoholics, but last I heard hadn't been implicated in crimes against Humanity. If the police came to arrest them for being alcoholics or crimes that they might be accused of, I seriously doubt that they'd fight to the death.

I hope you can distinguish between Saddam's sons and Bush's daughters. Saddam's sons occupied positions in the Iraqi government that made them valid targets, regardless of their geneology. On top of that, they had been accused of many crimes against humanity. Bush's daughters have only their geneology going against them, and haven't been accused of ANY crimes against humanity.

Please note (for our Secret Service readers) I do not espouse ANY kind of bad thing happening to the Bush Twins.
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corarose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #120
127. Yes. I can and I feel sorry for the Drunken Twins
I would drink also if I had to grow up with KILLERS and LIARS.

I feel sorry for the slags.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
54. Try thinking of it this way...
Suppose you're a high-ranking member of a criminal gang. Your gang is having a turf war with another criminal gang. The other gang wants to capture you and put you in exile, or they might just up and kill you given any opportunity.

Is it wise to keep your kid at your side, when you know you may get into a shootout at any moment? If you DO get into a shootout and your kid gets killed, who is at fault?
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
49. No one has been charged with a crime yet.
I think that is sort of the point everyone is trying to make.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
56. isn't everyone SOMEONE's son?
are not all the GI's being killed someone's son?

and just out of curiosity, what do you do when the military of an occupying power, with a stated desire to kill you, shows up on your doorstep? walk out and wait to be killed?
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Yeah
After all, trials are for good people, like, um, Nazi war criminals and murderers and the like.

And trials can be so inconvenient. Notice that our "leaders" over there decided not to show up for their trial in an Iraqi court. And that whole ICC thing, why bother? God tells Bush who to kill, Bush has them killed. No muss, no fuss, right?
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study_war_no_more Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
46. we should have a national celebration
we just murdered two bad guys without a trial or due process in their own country. We can show our national pride and pretend other people don't like us cause we claimed their natural resources which evryone knows are ours. Manifest destiny they just don't get it.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #46
70. Not murdered
Now wait a minute. I was an opposed to this invasion too, but killing these two bastards is a good thing. It was a firefight, NOT a murder. These were the two arms of Saddam's reign of terror on his own people. The one lead the secret police and took out opposition voices after Gulf I.

Oppose the invasion, but don't oppose getting rid of the thugs who abused the Iraqi people.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. It was murder. Firefight means we did it with guns.
Or don't you think they had the right to defend themselves?

Of course not, the god USA says they're criminals.

You know what, I'll bet they were bastards who did everything they were accused of.

Still didn't give us the right to invade their country and murder them. Nothing ever will.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #71
112. War
You don't murder opposing soldiers in war -- even a wrong war. If they defend themselves, it's called combat.
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Barry_Goldwater Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
87. Should we have surrounded them?
and then waited it out like we did with David Koresh?

Could we have spoken to them thru megaphones a few times a day
pleading with them to surrender?

Just what should we have done?
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #87
116. There were supposedly a total of SIX PEOPLE vs. an entire Army.
What the hell does that have to do with the Koresh debacle?

In the past, some completely outnumbered and surrounded individuals have been known to surrender rather than die, believe it or not.

Giving these brothers that opportunity could have ended up revealing all sorts of pricelessly critical Iraqi intelligence.

Hmmmmm...


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random Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. Late Breaking News...
Saddam's grandmother killed in a firefight! I feel so safe now!
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demdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. That's cute
Here let me get my post numnbers up also. Thanks.
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random Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. Nobody ever heard of Uday and Qusay until * wanted to get his war on...
None of the other guys on that "deck of cards" either, and you know it. Why you think it's worth celebrating is beyond me. You're just buying into Bush's line of BS.
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demdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. I you didn't know who his sons were until recently
that is your own fault, do not take the opportunity to speak for me. Perhaps you should read more. As for the deck of cards, yes I only knew about 2 or 3 of the more high profile ones.
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Sirius_on Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #27
109. I heard of them before
I remember hearing that Saddam tried to kill one of them when he thought one of his sons was trying to kill him.
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democrat in Tallahassee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. How do we know? Cause they say so?
Just wondering
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Actually, at this point
All we know is what bill said he heard on NPR.

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Zero Gravitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. NPR: WMDs Found
NPR was one of the first to "break" the story of WMDs being found in Iraq. Of course that turned out to be false...
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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. Yeah, and Chemical Ali may be dead!
or not, as the case may be.
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carolinayellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
10. Assassination?
What were the circumstances? I don't think political assassination as a method of "postwar" occupation stands up under international law. But then, what is international law in the Bush New World Order?
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I AM SPARTACUS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
11. the US Army has adopted the Enron-Balance-Sheet-Strategy...
when you're on the ropes or need to show productivity...LIE.
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
12. Since we all know the insurgency has nothing to do with Saddam
Edited on Tue Jul-22-03 12:13 PM by markses
This will surely be yet another demonstration that the US illusions about Iraq are wrong, as per usual. Even if they strung up Saddam in the middle of Baghdad, we'd still see 5-8 American soldiers killed every week. Just as it was clear what would happen if Bush invaded - to all but the most confirmed idealogues (and some dumbass dems) - so it is clear that the continued fighting has little to do with any restoration effort. To the extent that it has been billed that way, this supposed victory will flash briliantly for a few days, until we notice once again that the illusion don't make the reality, and the casualties mount.

"And if enemy activity in III Corps has 'increased significantly' and US casualties had doubled in the area, then doubled again, it wasn't happening in any damn Ho Bo Woods, you'd better believe it...."
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. Murdering the families of heads of state is a great precedence to set
I'm sorry, if these guys are such criminals they should have been brought to justice, not just murdered by our military. Convenient isn't it?
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. To the credit of the 101st Airborne
They were - ostensibly - attempting to raid the home for a capture. they were faced with resistance and took out the enemy. All this snivelling about "assassination of heads of state" is poorly placed, IMHO, and does no good in this situation. It's a loser argument.

That this is all flash and nonsense, and that these deaths will do little to improve the situation on the ground, despite the sage proclamations from Wolf Blitzer and a seemingly desperate and incoherent Fox News, is all that need be said.

And, of course, we shouldn't have troops anywhere near Baghdad, much less Mosul - but that's another story altogether.
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I AM SPARTACUS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
32. sure...and they raided a hospital to "rescue" Pvt. Lynch...
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study_war_no_more Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
57. sniveling about murder of foriegn nationals does no good
if you have no integrity or value for human life if it is not waving an american flag and submitting to the great fiction this country has become.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
73. Nice of you to tell us all that needs to be said.
Sorry. Using the American army as hitmen does not sanctify the mission.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
128. Do any of the Kurdish residents of the town confirm this?
And what were Saddam's sons doing hanging out together in a Kurdish controlled town anyway?
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dwillison Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. I'll do a google. If I can find the address, you can send
flowers and a nice sympathy card.

I frown on any jerk that calls
our military murderers.
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. LOL
I'm with you dwillson.

With the one exception that the military CAN act as proxy murderers if the policy is murderous.
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I AM SPARTACUS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. "frown on any jerk that calls our military murderers"...think MY LAI
please note: it's WHO calls, not THAT calls...

The My Lai courts-martial are the stories of two tragedies growing out of American involvement in Viet Nam. One was the massacre by United States soldiers of as many as 500 unarmed civilians-- old men, women, children--in My Lai on the morning of March 16, 1968. The other was the cover-up of that massacre....

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/...
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dwillison Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. They were murderers after a court martial convicted and
incarcerated them, not when some dimwit called them murderers
on a message board.
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I AM SPARTACUS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. actually, they were "called murderers" when they were accused...
...they were convicted murderers after the trial...

I guess by your reasoning, all of these folks are "dimwits:
* the accusers and witnesses(fellow soldiers),
* the military brass in the field that decided to let these charges proceed,
* the military brass in the Pentagon,
* the court that heard the case,
* the prosecutor
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dwillison Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. No US citizen is guilty of a crime until convicted. It's called
due process. Even applies in the military, the military uses different
courts to acheive due process. Up to the point of conviction we are accused of so and so.
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dwillison Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Acheive=achieve
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I AM SPARTACUS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. and the difference between "called" and "accused" is what???
and someone on a message board calling or accusing someone of something is a violation of due process how???
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dwillison Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. If you can't differentiate between a convicted murderer and an accused
murderer, I can't help you.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dwillison Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. So you have no problem with this statement:
"I'm sorry, if these guys are such criminals they should have been brought to justice, not just murdered by our military. Convenient isn't it?"

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I AM SPARTACUS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. you give no context for the statement...and I suspect that you are
approaching the "pointless and automatic" point...
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #58
83. The Difference is Minor
It's sort of like Clinton lied under oath, and Bush lied in the SOTU
speech, but their both liars.

OJ was accused of murder, but was found innocent, yet people still call him a murderer.

In other words a liar is a liar, and a murderer is a murderer.
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I AM SPARTACUS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #83
90. never mind...
Edited on Tue Jul-22-03 05:58 PM by I AM SPARTACUS
.
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I AM SPARTACUS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #58
93. I clearly made that distinction, pity you didn't read before you replied
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sal Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #48
104. The victims cried, "murderer!"
Pointed at the soldier's faces, babies in thier arms and shouted, "murderers, you have killed us.!"

"Curse you MURDERING bastards."

I guess it is just samantics, right pal?
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #48
113. A murderer is still a murderer without being convicted
A court does not have to find a murderer guilty.

How many have killed and murder others without being charged with the crime?

As for military personnel... they are required to follow orders BUT they are also required to follow the rules of war. Troops can and should refuse to follow orders they know are illegal.
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:25 PM
Original message
I Have a Question
What do you call someone who admits to killing an enemy soldier, who has surrendered.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
42. Good thing the Bush twins don't like travel any more than Dad.
Someone overseas might think they're fair game.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
111. Hmmm.... if China. North Korea.. France.. Afghanistan
Were to murder the families of America's heads of state?? Would it be okay for them just like Bush did?

As for Saddam and his sons... there is no excuse for them remaining in power when the opportunity was there. Unfortunately, the coalition forces in Iraq I was only interested in removing Saddam from Kuwait.

The finger should be pointed back to Reagan and Bush 41 for putting and supporting Saddam during their administration.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. Wire services are Not reporting the death of the sons - yet.
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAB2CM4GID.html

Four Iraqis Killed in Mosul Raid; U.S. Investigating Whether Saddam's Sons Among Dead By Sarmad Jalal Associated Press Writer
Published: Jul 22, 2003
MOSUL, Iraq (AP) - A firefight erupted when U.S. forces surrounded the home of a cousin of Saddam Hussein in the northern city of Mosul on Tuesday, killing four people. U.S. officials in Washington said they were trying to determine whether Saddam's sons Odai and Qusai were among the dead. An official with the U.S. civilian administration running Iraq said "something big has just happened" but would provide no futher information. Residents told an Associated Press Television News cameraman in Mosul that American soldiers had come to the house looking for Saddam's elder sons. ..Some local residents appeared to have been caught in the crossfire. It was not known how many people were injured, but several were taken to a hospital. <snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/22/international/22WIRE-...
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-iraq.html

U.S. Officials: Saddam's Sons May Have Been Found
By REUTERS Filed at 12:41 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON/MOSUL, Iraq, July 22 (Reuters) - U.S. troops may have killed Saddam Hussein's two sons Uday and Qusay in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul on Tuesday in a four-hour battle at a villa, U.S. officials said. U.S. forces in Iraq said they had killed four high-ranking Saddam allies, and an official in Washington said there was a ``pretty decent chance'' the sons were at the scene during the shootout. ``There was a shootout in Mosul, and there is a number of dead people and a couple of them could be Uday and Qusay,'' said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity.
Some 200 U.S. soldiers blasted the villa with machineguns and rockets before storming the building and bringing out four bodies, U.S. officers in Iraq said.

Qusay, Saddam's younger son, was one of his father's most trusted lieutenants. Uday was famed and feared throughout Iraq for his cruelty and playboy lifestyle before Saddam's rule was ended by U.S.-led forces on April 9. Mosul residents who witnessed the raid on the villa, home to a local businessman, said there had been widespread speculation that the troops were hunting for Saddam's sons. U.S. forces have been conducting an intensive hunt for the fugitive former Iraqi president himself, spurred on by guerrilla-style attacks on their ranks that they blame on his die-hard supporters.
<snip>

U.S. officials say Saddam is probably still alive and hiding somewhere in Iraq. Audio tapes purported to have been made by Saddam have been given to Arab television networks, exhorting Iraqis to fight occupying U.S. and British troops.



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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
17. Seems odd
they'd both be in the same place, and a known relative's house at that.

Uday is also in a wheelchair last I heard.

In any event, Saddam has another son.
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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. they found 4 charred bodies..this is too soon to be accurate.
gin
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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
79. Agreed.
They have DNA testing facilities in Mosul?? Unlikely.

I am so conditioned to disbelieve any "info" coming out of this admin. that I wonder: 1) "charred bodies"--CAN they identify them? 2) could even a positive DNA ID be disinfo? would they dare try it? 3) even if the bodies are who they say, they could have killed them elsewhere earlier, and staged a firefight just when they need it politically.

FWIW, I also think it's VERY bad policy (to say the least) to kill political enemies. And I don't think the posters who are calling this "assassination" are out of line, because Bush* has called for this any number of times, quite publicly. Someday, when all the other crimes have been dealt with, I think Bush* should be called to account for making assassination US policy. Maybe it's a war crime just to call for it?
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #79
114. Charred?
On my way home from work this afternoon... they didn't mention anything about the bodies being charred. In fact they stated the bodies were identifiable.
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qandnotq Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. yes, it's a really dumb place to hide
that's why i'm so skeptical. that and the fact they found 4 burned bodies which would probably be pretty hard to identify visually. can they do DNA matching in the field that quick?
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LeftPeopleFinishFirst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. No...
I don't believe there is a simple DNA field test, don't they have to take it back to a lab for testing?
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LeftPeopleFinishFirst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
22. That doesn't make sense.
Why wouldn't they split up? Just seems a little fishy to me.
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yella_dawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
24. It's good to know
Edited on Tue Jul-22-03 12:23 PM by yella_dawg
that we're the good guys. The bad guys would have called in a tank or a warthog and just killed everyone in sight at the first sign of restistance... Umm... Uuhh... Never mind.

yella
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expatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
30. bush will get a short term bounce from this...
...but once people realize that it won't affect the growing resistance we are facing in the country, bush will start dropping again.
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cureautismnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
34. Repukes are Quite Efficient at Killing Children
Ronnie murdered Qaddafi's daughter and now Bush-boy may have killed Hussain's sons. Of course, Shrub has also liberated the souls of thousands of other Iraqi and Afghani children from their bodies.

The GOP is remarkably "skilled" in aborting the lives of children outside the womb. Who knew?
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SyracuseDemocrat Donating Member (696 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
35. I'm glad they're dead.
I was against this war, but damn, I'm glad that these two guys are dead now. They're both sick fucks, especially the older one. He had a penchant for raping women in a vicious manner, and you would think that the feminists on here would be glad he's dead, but nope. :eyes:
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Is America now safer because they're dead?
marginally if at all.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
55. This feminist...
would be thrilled if they had been caught, brought to trial either in the Iraqi justice system or international one (if applicable) on their crimes and convicted.

It's all that "crap" they drilled into my in Government and History classes I guess.
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AliceWonderland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #55
98. Hear hear
Hell Hath No Fury. Well put. Some of the posts on this thread are unbelievable. Stage an illegal invasion, pick a brute at random in the world and a brute whose social structure was in part propped up on my taxpayer dime, carry out an assassination, ignore international law and due process, create a fearsome precedent... and tell me I must be pleased if I am a good feminist?? That is a laughable argument, and I am repulsed by media blowhards trumpeting this as a great victory when not a one amongst them could care less about the brutes of this world. Either we choose to support a world ruled by anarchy, state and non-state terrorism, unaccountable power, and rule by military might, or we don't.

There is due process for criminal behaviour -- not that due process would mean anything at this stage of the game. It does not exist only for people who are nice. Due process is due process precisely because it exists for the sickest and most violent among us, as well as for the wrongly accused. Due process says we value law and human rights, and that we believe that power MUST be accountable. This alleged assassination -- this entire War on Terra -- says that power is unaccountable. Read your Constitution lately? Noticed your Bill of Rights? Heard of the International Declation of Human Rights, the UN Charter? It's the saddest strawman imaginable -- "oh, who cares what we do anyway, they were bad men, you apologist for evildoer rapists you." Hm. I knew a guy who once broke a restraining order on my roommate. I'm curious -- at what point is he so evil that I can ignore due process, get a gun, and kill him with impunity? Was my friend's fracture enough, or do I need a little more? After all, punishment is my prerogative if there is no accountability and no due process, right?

SyracuseDemocrat, if you care about the raped women of the world, there are countless organizations you could support that have countless policy recommendations for eliminating sexual violence and its causes. They'd love a donation, I'm sure. Maybe a few hours of your time. I doubt, however, that many want international law to be further eroded. Any development or human rights group will tell you that war causes conditions that destroy women's lives in many ways.

As a side not, one of the many dirty little ironies here is that we've had hundreds of threads vis-a-vis the Niger scandal, saying that the Bush adminstration is filled with corrupt liars who use military force for personal and economic gain. So why should I even believe this report to be true?

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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #98
117. Isn't it interesting that the Republicans...
call for the rule of law when Clinton was President but when it comes to bush it is thrown out?
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study_war_no_more Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #35
60. because he is an Iraqian rapist
death is appropriate. If he was an american rapist he would probably be a famous sports figure. Manifest destiny they just don't get it.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #35
68. I don't believe ANY of the US propaganda about these guys
Edited on Tue Jul-22-03 01:56 PM by Tinoire
Sorry... Call me cynical but they've been caught lying too many times.

I remember the "babies yanked from incubators to be bayonetted" stories. Where did this story start? Chalabi? Rummy? Nope, sorry. I need more 'proof' than our non-stop propanda department.

Come to think of it... WHEN have these guys EVER told the truth?

So feminist yes. Naive easily manipulated feminist? NO.

Not jumping on Rummy's blood train.
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DeathvadeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #68
96. I would agree....
It's hard to even know who the bad guys are anymore.

The Media and This Misadministration damn near made Saddam out to be SATAN, using old video footage and old news sources, using selected information, excluding facts about the US relations with Iraq, Never comparing the evil things Saddam did with Evil things the US has done and is still doing.....

The only reason I feel Saddam and his kids were evil is, not because the US told me they were. Because of reports I saw coming from the Iraqie people that lived under his rule. The people that are searching through mass graves for there family members, The people that showed so much hate for the countries leaders they damn near brought it to ruins.
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Set Donating Member (100 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #68
121. Clinton thought that they were bad people....
that's good enough for me.

If we'd had a series of strong Repuke presidents since Gulf War 1, with no Dems in office, I'd be concerned about propaganda. I don't think Clinton would have done that to us. Clinton misled us about some piddly shit personal stuff...but I can't think of a single case of his lying to us on a substantive issue. I still trust him on things like this.

While I wish they had surrendered peacefully so we (or the people of Iraq) could try them in a court for the crimes they were accused of, I'm not going to lose one wink of sleep over this.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #35
75. Guess we're just feminazis after all.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
115. It's too bad all the "sick" people were eliminated...
preferably never born.

Of course we have too many in the current white house administration. And also Congress.
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Sick of Bullshit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #35
119. Are you glad that tall guy in Afghanistan is dead?
You know, that tall guy standing in a field who was taken out by a drone missile.

He was bin-fuckin'-Laden, remember?

Of course, they later found out that he was just some tall guy in Afghanistan.
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fizzana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:01 PM
Original message
As opposed to Bin-Laden I thought the rewards fo Saddam
and sons would probably work sooner or later.

Bin Laden is protected by fanatical idealogues who would rather die than give up anything. Saddam and sons are protected by people who's loyalty is bought by money, power and priviledge. Saddam's protectors are much more likely to give him up for the money.

In Afghanistan/Pakistan there are many places to hide in the mountains. From what I've seen of Iraq, there's very little terrain to hide in so one is forced into hiding in urban areas where it's more likely someone, somewhere will notice something suspicious.

More importantly, I don't think taking out his sons will affect the guerilla war one iota. Taking out Saddam might be another matter.
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fizzana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
36. As opposed to Bin-Laden I thought the rewards fo Saddam
and sons would probably work sooner or later.

Bin Laden is protected by fanatical idealogues who would rather die than give up anything. Saddam and sons are protected by people who's loyalty is bought by money, power and priviledge. Saddam's protectors are much more likely to give him up for the money.

In Afghanistan/Pakistan there are many places to hide in the mountains. From what I've seen of Iraq, there's very little terrain to hide in so one is forced into hiding in urban areas where it's more likely someone, somewhere will notice something suspicious.

More importantly, I don't think taking out his sons will affect the guerilla war one iota. Taking out Saddam might be another matter.
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Corgigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
40. Great
Does this mean our soliders can come home? Since this is a giant victory and all?
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FubarFly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
45. If true, we just turned two despicable men...
into martyrs.

I bet arresting these two was never an option.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. With the patriot act and Johnny k. they would never get a trail anyway
Besides I thought Iraq was a country and not a colony, wouldnt't they have to be tried in their own country first. Just dreaming, but what a nightmare that would be for BFEE
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study_war_no_more Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #45
61. Jihad? who said anything about a Jihad?
Stepping into autogeddon with blinders on.
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lightbulb Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #45
72. Martyrs indeed...
I wonder if the sons were targeted specifically to get Saddam to do something stupid, like emerge from hiding and play some small WMD ace he had up his sleeve and show the world that the war was justified after all.

Or maybe there is a plan in the works to make it appear this is what's going to happen. The first step in framing someone for a crime is establishing their motivation...

Or maybe I'm just plain nuts!

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study_war_no_more Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #72
80. Man was never horned until he fought with God- Danial Berrigan
And here we are in post revolution america knowing what Gil Scott heron said was true the revolution was not televised. I know this is true cause I was watching the stream of images like Dorthy watched Kansas when the tornadoe picked up the world and spun it hard- hard enough to make up look down. And now we are here in the plan for the new American Century although it doesn't look new but suspiciously Orwellian and it reminds me of another time I tried to stop iron bombs from a falling sky much bluer than this one so grey it seems four horsemen might burst galloping in apocalyptic condemnation of my lack of biblic fear of the demons of auto-geddon. Did I say autogeddon instead of armageddon- a slip of the freudian appendage to be sure but just maybe this is about the oil. Still i carry each murdered soul in iraq as I once did with the Vietmanese people. And the Mary kay cosmetic girls oooh and aaaah about how handsome the secret service men are and pay tribute to the King with pink hankie not as in code pink but a pulsating pastle fictionous pink which consumes other colors other races and other ways of life and things are spinning so fast that it is hard to know who is speaking from behind the curtain cause they know about that too and are way ahead of the minds ability to absorb leaving me only with my heart- to stand on- to offer in this darkness- the will to be ordinary in this mockery of life I hold up my hands not in surrender but to show they are free of blood.
Mitakuye oyasin
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DeathvadeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #72
92. I would agree.....
If Saddam is still alive and he does have some wmd and he finds out his kids are dead, it's ver possible that he will resort to more desperate measures.

Anyone remember Saddams other kid, The one that was murdered by Saddam for his son telling him not to see one of his mistress. I think it went down at a UN dinner or something?
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Set Donating Member (100 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #92
122. Doubtful....
Saddam apparently came close to having his oldest son killed for one of his more public fuckups. Saddam's wife intervened, so apparently they just beat the shit out of him and his groupies. Talk about tough love...

Oh, BTW...if he used WMDs, NOBODY outside of Iraq would help him any more...because helping him would be BEGGING for Shrubco to invade...
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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #45
81. FubarFly...I don't think arrest was an option
These two knew that their fate was, if captured, "robust interrogation" followed by a military tribunal and almost certain execution. I am not implying that any of this wouldn't have been well-deserved...these were two sick puppies....

The point is they had nothing to lose and more than likely chose to go down fighting and taking as many Americans as possible out with them.

Surrender wasn't an option. But they are the ones who made the choice.
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FubarFly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #81
99. Exactly...
If we had established a record of treating prisoners fairly and humanely,
we could have tried negotiating surrender, and perhaps spared unneeded bloodshed.

There is no doubt in my mind that this was an ordered execution- it certainly fits a pattern. Whether they shot first or not, is really besides the point.

Surrender wasn't an option. But we didn't leave them with any choice to make.


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Stanchetalarooni Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
62. God Bless America...
...and #%&









...and F&%# the rest?


















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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
65. Hurrah Qusar and Udder are dead....
we are safe from terrorism forever now. Plus Iraq is now completely stable.....

Whatever...until they have thier corpses I dont believe a word of it. Not that it matters anyway, I do hope they and thier Dad are both dead or in some other way completely incapable of any actions. But Im not gonna celebrate it like its done us some good.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
67. This will knock the lies off the front page, eh?
This and Kobe and Lynch's homecoming will knock the real news -- Jr, Cheney, Condi, and Rummy's lies off the front pages and lead news stories.

No more fruitcake!
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maryallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #67
105. Ding, ding, ding!!!
Isn't it amazing that just when things are getting HOT for Shrub, Saddam's sons are found and killed???

That Chimpie is one "lucky" SOB ...

Another "trifecta" in the making?
Osama -- part 2?
Saddam -- part 3?
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casual_observer Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
69. Hooray! They killed somebody!!
Somebody else is dead, and the US killed them. Time to party.
"Feels Good" ???

(Would be VERY suprised if it is actually them)
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haymaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
74. Just in the nick of time...........again.
How fortunate for George. He sure is lucky. I wonder when the killing of Saddam or Osama will happen. Hmmmm, let's see, around October '04? Yeah, that's the ticket.
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
76. CNN
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
77. Time to say a war prayer
"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen. - Mark Twain
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
78. So what?
Edited on Tue Jul-22-03 02:47 PM by teryang
Does this mean that the heart of the Arab world will submit to American corporate colonialism and privatization of their national resources? Not likely.

Let's not forget that we supported Saddam for decades. They have to be killed so we can wash our hands of their crimes.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
82. The US has no leg to stand on when it comes to unilaterally
determining the guilt or innocence of war criminals. First, we are illegally in
their country, prosecuting an illegal and immoral war and occupation -- we have no right to be the world's cop, arresting or conducting shoot em ups with citizens of another country, especially since we have no mandate from the international court or any other international body. Secondly, the fact that we are also guilty of war crimes big time and have had ourselves exempted from prosecution from the international court, further undermines our right to act as cop, judge, jury and executioner of anybody. We are supposed to be a nation based on the rule of law , not a Texas lynch mob. Sorry, that was before we became a fascist plutocracy.
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muchacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
84. Targeted assasinations
What is it exactley that the sons did that gives the US the right to assasinate them?
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Barry_Goldwater Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
85. How is Saddam taking this news?
Poor fella, finds out his two sons were killed in a firefight.
Saddam might take this very hard, and might need some time off
in his role as deposed dictator on the run. I recommend Cancun
for him.

Saddam is rather old now, but he can try to have another son or two.

Ok, back to reality: I am so glad his kids are taking the big dirt nap!

These deaths should really increase the number of athletes applying to the Iraqi Olympic team!
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1984ever Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
86. How Many Times..
How many times have they already claimed to have killed Saddam or his sons? Remember the day after the invasion, they were equally as certain that we had killed Saddam. NPR this morning was reporting this almost as a fact, then claimed that their news was so good because they took time to listen to the "nonsense" of some caller who dared say that he believed this war was about oil, not liberation of the Iraqi people.
:wtf:
Anyway, are we supposed to running joyously through the streets celebrating the deaths of these a-holes? It's still an ILLEGAL war that was brought apon by lies.
Where's WMD's?
Where's Saddam?
Where's Osama?
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. DISPLAY THE BODIES
Iraqis should not believe this is so unless the bodies are put on public display.

Sanchez said the bodies are identifiable.

So display them.
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Set Donating Member (100 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #88
123. I doubt they'll display them publicly...
but I'd expect pictures of the bodies to be released today....
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Herschel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
89. I celebrate the death of these animals
No sympathy for them or how they died. It was a good thing. The world is a better place.
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I AM SPARTACUS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. it seems that you suffer a poverty of principle...
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Herschel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #91
102. Please explain yourself
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agincourt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
94. How'd they know?
They'd found the bush twin posters plastered around the house. Hoorah! Hoorah! Hoorah! Sadamm's "too stupid to leave iraq" sons tried to take on the 101st airborne and guess what? They lost. What a great victory , I think I'll get a little flag for my car. Of course Bush must get full credit, the genius and all he is. Hoorah! Hoorah! Hoorah! I luv republicans, who gives a shit about losing jobs and getting screwed out of overtime now? I my glad Bush is predestined by God to lead this country otherwise Odai would be raping every man, woman , child , cat , dog , gerbil , and parakeet in this blessed land.








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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
95. BBC Link - Iraqis are "celebrating" the "death" of Saddam's sons+grandson
"Saddam Hussein's two sons, Uday and Qusay, have been killed by US troops in Iraq, the United States military has said.

Their bodies were identified after 200 US soldiers, backed by helicopters, stormed a house in the northern city of Mosul following a tip-off from an Iraqi source.

A US commander in Baghdad said he was "certain" the two had died in the fierce gun battle in Mosul and US Central Command later "confirmed" the deaths.

"We've used multiple sources to identify the individuals," Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez said, adding that the bodies were in an identifiable condition...

Two other people were killed along with the former Iraqi president's sons. They have not been named but reports say one may be a teenage son of one of the brothers and the other a bodyguard."

Full story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3088393.st...

Well...if I was the guy who turned them in, I'd probably not spend all my reward in the same place....
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
97. Reading some of the posts here
I'll get flamed for this I'm sure, so I'm putting on the asbestos boxers, but reading a few of the posts here, it's no wonder the Freepers called some of the anti-war protestors Saddam lovers. Irregardless of the politics of the war, these two men were human rights criminals who, if captured, would have went to trial and almost certainly have been found guilty of crimes against humanity by ANY court in the world. The punishment for their crimes in Iraq would have been death. The facts were there for any to look up and read even before the Bush media blitz to demonize Saddam. These two men were simply monsters who have been brutalizing Iraqi civilians for over a decade, and even attempted to kill one another! To ignore the vast amounts of evidence gathered on these two before Bush was even in office would be unbelievable. I have no problem debating the methods used to capture these men or the illegality of the war we started on faulty information. However, I can't believe there would be any debate over whether or not these two men deserved to die. No, it wont stop the attacks. No, it won't give Bush any more credibility on the WMD flap. But I'm not going to shed a tear for these men who are responsible for the deaths of thousands of their own people.

The child that was killed was another story, though. I can't imagine ANY reason why a kid would be deserving of death.
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I AM SPARTACUS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #97
100. some people, here and elsewhere, believe in going about things
differently.

For instance, as you wrote..."However, I can't believe there would be any debate over whether or not these two men deserved to die."...Your belief, or disbelief as it may be, sort of assumes a universality of belief in the death penalty.

There are many, many different layers to this issue. I don't see anyone requesting that you shed a tear for the Husseins. It's not about your tears.
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Herschel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. Please tell us simply
Do you wish they had not been killed? Somewhere in all the layers.
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FubarFly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #97
101. Can you imagine their value if they had been captured alive?
Not only do they know their father's whereabouts, but they have knowledge of every other secret Iraq possesses as well.

And do you think perhaps they could have been used as a bargaining chip to negotiate Saddam's surrender?

Captured and alive, they could have been used to demoralize Saddam loyalists; dead they will only increase the urge for more violence and revenge- they become martyrs.

The only real value they had dead, was to stop the freefall of shrubs approval rating, and give our troops a temporary morale boost. Whoopee.

Every immoral, inhuman act our military commits galls me, but the added incompetence and stupidity factors makes it unbearable.


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babzilla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #101
106. Is that the sound of crickets fubarfly?
Now you're just making too much sense. Logic vs. bloodlust = silence.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #101
118. Their real value...
would had been to try them by an international court instead of killing them.

And if Saddam is brought before an international court and if there weren't WMD or justification for the war an embarassment for Republicans.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-03 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
107. Is this one of those Bush killings where they turn up alive again three
months later. I wouldn't believe anything these people tell us. Seems awfully politically convenient.
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study_war_no_more Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #107
124. we can only hope.
NT
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philodox Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
125. I'm frustrated.
Part of me is content with this. These two were not nice, as has been repeatedly stated. This is, as unjust as it is, a war. I do not feel that these two would have come peacefully into custody, for a proper trial and punishment.

On the other hand...what's the price of this? What's going to happen down the road? Are they going to become martyrs for a resistance that is growing? And quite honestly, how does this make Iraq a better place? People are still dying, on both sides.

Anyway, that's my speech for the night. I'm gonna go stare at the ceiling and debate with myself for awhile.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #125
126. Exactly
All the discussion about "was it really them" or "did they deserve to die" is frankly academic.

The question is, "Does it matter that this story exists?" because that's what we have to work with.

Does it matter in terms of a safer, more just Iraq, U.S., or planet? Has anything been done lately that does?
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