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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 03:54 PM
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12. Once and activity is accepted
Edited on Mon Jan-12-09 04:12 PM by RandomThoughts
to be used against your worst enemies, it later gets used against all enemies. Then it gets used against your own citizens.

If the moral objection to torture disappears, which is what I think Joe is suggesting, then why not have it in every US court case to make sure witnesses tell the truth. Why not use it in US Prisons, and even in the work place.

Joe is doing some fictional math in his head. one guy tortured 100 terrorist caught. That is the math he makes up in his head. Ok Joe how about one mobster to bring down a crime family, and save a few hundred people from crime. Or one drug dealer tortured to stop selling drugs to 100 people by bringing down a drug ring. Why not torture all people suspected of crimes? This is where this leads. Now right now his different level of empathy for different groups does not make him think this way, even possible hatred of some groups. But alls a leader has to do is get him to hate any group and he will gladly sit back and allow them to be tortured.

Back to Joe's math. One guy tortured. 100 terrorist caught and 1000 terrorist created. How many headlines of USA torture camps will be splashed over news for years to come if Joe gets his way. How many whispers of disappeared people will enter the lexicon of things spoken about the USA. How many 1000s of terrorist will the program he advocates create?

That is what you get from torture.

Even if you ignore the lack of dignity he advocates. He is not thinking long term nor is he thinking of the effect across the board to the respect US gets from other countries. And respect translates into business contracts, diplomatic help with problems, financial cooperation, and even military help.

On his point about right after 9/11. USA was in fear, and some anger. people were scared.

To be honest, because our leaders, at the time, were darkside people, they went with it and actually increased the fear, and even added much hate, because they believe in using fear and hate to get things done. If you whip a bunch of scared people into a frenzy so that they will allow you to do things that require them to be scared to allow, things of violence and depravity, you are still responsible. Both for what is done, and the lack of leadership.

A good leader would have broken the fear spell. That is done by instilling courage, and yes, also hope, instead of hate and fear.

This is done taking moral high ground and having dignity in your actions. Maybe there should be a mitigating 'everyone was scared' factor. But if you want to run a country of millions of people, you better be able to handle things like that, because you are being looked to for leadership. So it is hard to give top officials just a pass. Running a country is not just a little fun thing you can get to do because you were born with a name, or knew the right people. It is a responsibility with consequences.

I don't know that girls name next to Joe, but she is great, she did not back down and honestly in a respectful way shared her opinion on the issue. It should be her show, and Joe can go back to where ever he is from.

And I really hope Joe doesn't get his way
(and just so Joe can understand what he is advocating, not because I ever wish hardship for him, nor anyone. But just so if he happened to read this he might understand what he is advocating.)

Joe, what if during a complicated part of your life, someone decided finding out the truth was important enough to torture you, and you were whisked away for 6 months to a year. And nothing you said was of value anyway, since torture doesn't work. Again I wish Joe the best of life, and only ask this so he understands that the real reason for torture is to instill fear in many people.

And Joe, if anyone did try to do that to you, they would have to go through me and hundreds of liberals, because we would not allow our government to torture you. We would fight for you Joe, and we would hope the reporters on TV, with there own show would fight against torture too.

Because torture is wrong!

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