Reply #4: I follow you. Thanks for the feed back.

[bluedawg12]

This is exactly the point I was making in another thread, that, it is the act of assuming a power role, that leads to violence against lesbians, in many cases.

However, the issue then becomes, is it, to use your terminology, "structured through individual agency," and influenced by society to some degree, or, as the OP I posted discussed, part of some intrinsic aspect of the person, which is what "sexologists," study.

My opinion is that it is variable and of course unique case by case. However, very few "butch" women, that I know, and this is empirical, study how to be masculine any more or less, then males and are drawn to that in the same way as males, as something they perceive as positive to emulate starting early in life.

It may be individual agency, i.e. volitional, it may also be hormonal. I'd be interested in someday looking at hormonal studies in utero, infancy, pre-puberty, puberty and adulthood, if any such studies exist.

What ever it is, it is probably a combination of things and comes in a spectrum from "Jo the tomboy" in Little Women , to transgender people, who feel they are assigned the wrong body.

I am going to speculate, that it is more or less similar for males who do not identify, with cultural gender norms.

In that sense, both males and females, who live their lives in opposition to cultural gender norms do so first, without thinking of all of the ramifications, that are retroactively assigned to them by academics, viz a viz, the work by Newton, in "The Mythic Mannish Lesbian: Radclyffe Hall and the New Woman", nor do they consider the political implications as mentioned by Amy Goodloe, in Lesbian Identity and the Politics of Butch-Femme Roles, that, "the dominant form of feminist discourse has, in attempting to "liberate" lesbian identity from patriarchal control...This is perhaps most obvious in the feminist critique of role playing among lesbians, which is considered by the dominant feminist discourse to be a barrier to one's "true" identity as a woman (assuming that there is such a thing)," what ever the etiology, the gender identification would in my opinion come early in life for people who identify with the opposite gender role, as it does come early in life, for people who identify with their culturally appropriate gender role.

I am speculating, that if I asked 500 heteronormative and "gender appropriate" females and 500 heteronormative and "gender appropriate" females, when did you first decide to behave as a woman or as a man, they would say, "Never, I never thought about it. I'm a girl/boy and have always acted as such." I have a hypothesis, that the same is true for so-called masculine women and for feminine men.

As is often the case, the condition is not so much the problem as is the cultural response.

I agree with your statement, "such women are still very marginalized ... dis-empowered...abused, beaten, denied employment, socially ostracized, etc."

Which maybe the reason for this thread and the bee in my bonnet today.

It finally dawned on me that this is a topic little studied, even female same sex relationships and female sexuality are little studied and it is rarely discussed.

While I read about terms such as "Queer" culture, I am not sure whose culture that is and what it looks like.

While I read about the marginalization of lesbians and among the cohort of lesbians, "butch-women" are especially marginalized, or as I have read and heard some say, they are "invisible," while that may be actually preferable for survival and has some merit, it does nothing to improve the quality of life and understanding of a group who seems to be "the group of whom we dare not speak."

The first step for me is self education. Thanks for the feed back. Like I said, a lightbulb went off in my noggin today about this topic and about the politics of being gay for women in particular and butch women, in specific.