Reply #38: I will avoid the charges of begging the question

[Goblinmonger]

and respond that my 3 years at a Catholic seminary would put me pretty firmly on the works side of the argument.

That being said, even the Puritans, who believed it was faith and the will of god that caused you to be saved, felt that what you DID was a reflection of your predestination. If you did shitty things, that was a sign that you didn't have faith and that god had not picked you to be in heaven. So, even the Calvinist pricks put a lot of weight on the actions of the individual, albeit secondary. That is one of the things that made the Salem Witch Trials a possibility. People didn't want to be seen as being associated with a witch because they would mean that they were not destined for heaven.

OK, I can't let the begging the question go, sorry. Even if you think that works are what SAVES you, that does not make it a defining aspect of whether you are a Christian or not. You may be a shitty Christian if you don't do good works or if you do crappy things, but you would still be a Christian because you believe in God and Jesus as divine. OK, I feel better now--I can't bottle things up like that.