You are viewing an obsolete version of the DU website which is no longer supported by the Administrators. Visit The New DU.
Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login

Reply #117: Ahem... [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #90
117. Ahem...
the only way to uncover fraud

exit polls can't provide proof of vote fraud

In financial prosecutions where there is no "paper trail" (say, in a case in which the suspect shredded the paper evidence), statistical methods are admissible in court to prove a case of fraud. I would imagine proof may be more difficult in such a case (Im not a lawyer). The point is--and I've heard this now from several sources--the kinds of statistical studies that Freeman and the Berkeley group and TIA have done ARE admissible in such a case.

Another reason to pursue them is that they can be helpful in identifying means, motive, and opportunity (the classics of detection), and in locating harder evidence and identifying actual suspects (which "black boxes" to look at? who had access to them? etc. --also, as someone upthread mentioned, discovering by inference the formulae that were used to change the election results).

The Berkeley study wasnt about exit polls--it was about electronic voting vs. traditional voting methods. They found over 200,000 excess votes for Bush in FLA on this data alone (votes that were either manufactured or stolen from Kerry).

ignatzmouse s study of NC was about the 1/3 absentee vote vs. 2/3 electronic vote, with a big discrepancy from the exit polls limited to electronic voting.

Both of these studies dont just point to fraud, they go a long way toward establishing the means (i.e., the murder weapon)--electronic voting.

Continuing efforts to prove the fraud are important for many reasons.

1. To overturn the election, if possible--an effort that would obviously be beneficial to all, but is a long shot, contingent not just on evidence, but also on politics and public perception (--and has a specifically limited time frame in which to be achieved).

(But note also: Watergate happened AFTER Nixon was re-elected in 1972. True, we don't have good conditions for impeachment, but we are in a far better position than anyone of that era to figure out what happened and to get it widely known and understood--through the internet. This is a pivotal scandal--much more serious than Watergate--with, at this point, unknowable consequences for Bush Inc.)

2. To uphold the principles of democracy--that every vote should count; that Republican partisans shouldn't own and keep secret the source code by which all our votes are counted; that an election should be re-countable and verifiable; and that, without these things, we really don't have a democracy.

3. For our own safety --to let the world know that American voters did NOT endorse Bush and his murderous war against Muslims and Arabs (even short of a slam-dunk case, we should at least be letting the world know that there are huge red pointers to election fraud).

4. To spur an effort to save our democracy--which I think requires grass roots citizen effort, state by state, county by county, to achieve, a) a paper trail, and b) open source code. (Congress is NOT going to help, and could make things worse.)

5. To hearten Kerry voters and campaign volunteers across the country, let them know that the election was stolen (not that the country went red), and focus them on achieving #4. (#4 is doable, but we may have a limited time window to get it done.)

6. To keep all those newly registered voters active politically, and voting. Right now, what reason do they have to ever vote again? (Even solid, long-time voters are asking that question. But when I tell them what I've learned about all this, their eyes light up, I'll tell you that. Suddenly they UNDERSTAND what their gut has been telling them--that something was very wrong about this election--and they want to do something about it.)

7. To hold the Democratic leaderships feet to the fire for their catastrophic failure to protect our right to vote--permitting Republican partisans to control the vote tabulation software, with no paper trail. At the least, they should have WARNED voters about this, loudly; talked about it in the campaign. What the hell is the matter with them?!

8. To avoid wasting our time on the delusion that we can influence this fascist coup on the many different issues that they are important to us. Its scattering our energies; its useless--they are NOT into cooperative government; they are on a jihad to destroy everything we hold dear. Stick to fundamentals: unless we recover the right to vote, our democracy is OVER.

Everything so far points to a fraudulent election result. In addition to the growing body of statistical evidence (and, really, its gotten to be overwhelming), there is a great volume of anecdotal evidence of severe vote suppression by Republican election officials in certain places--the places the election SEEMED TO come down to (Ohio, Florida), while the main part of the fraud likely occurred way back upstream in less noticeable states, and by the less noticeable method of altering the source code in the central vote tabulation machines in many places.

The very blatant vote suppression by Republican election officials in Ohio and FLA is not the whole story (in my working hypothesis of this election); it appears to me to be part of the larger fraud plan, and something of red herring. (I dont mean we shouldnt pursue every provisional ballot--what I mean is we shouldnt feel DEFEATED if those ballots dont overturn the election. The whole thing seems to me to have been deliberately aimed at making it APPEAR to turn on a relatively few provisional ballots in places where highly partisan Republican election officials were in charge, had done a lot of prep in vote suppression, to keep it close, and have official control over which ballots are counted.)

There is also a lot of anecdotal evidence of extraordinary effort by pro-Kerry workers to register voters and to get out the vote, and the perception of many, many people that those efforts were highly successful. Peoples rightwing uncles voting against Bush. Like that. Many, many such stories.

Finally, there is solid evidence that this election was a fraud GOING IN: Bush partisans (major donors and supporters) owning the secret tabulation source code that was used to count all our votes; the same people insisting on no paper trail (and achieving it in a third of the country). Made to order for fraud.

One of the most important keys to understanding what happened on Nov. 2 is the TV networks handling of the exit polls. People need to be informed about this: that the exit polls showed a Kerry win, that TV networks then started mixing exit poll data with Republican-controlled electronic machine data, making it APPEAR that Bush was winning late in the day, and COVERING UP the big Kerry numbers in the exit polls. The TV networks were key to creating the PERCEPTION of a Bush win late in the day. They FAILED TO DISCLOSE that they had polluted the exit poll data! (A Bush late-in-the-day win made little sense, intuitively--thats when the working poor and minorities vote, by necessity. But they didnt mention this either.)

The more we uncover about this fraudulent election, the more it helps fight cynicism, and depression and feelings of powerlessness. We need to FOCUS on this FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM: the ever-growing evidence that the election was stolen, and what to do about it. This phony division between the red states and the blue states is causing a lot of distraction. The fact is, WE DONT KNOW how the red states voted. They could have repudiated Bush, for all we know (and I strongly believe some of them in fact did).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators

Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC