You are viewing an obsolete version of the DU website which is no longer supported by the Administrators. Visit The New DU.
Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login

Reply #106: Just Posted at BBV [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU
BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
106. Just Posted at BBV
This is the best critical debunking I've seen of the sometimes sloppy thinking that has gone on regarding this subject.

The thread is here:

The response is to a poster named "auditor" at BBV, by "Space Cowboy":

The "Bay Point Schools, Cal Tech, and the CyberNET connection." thread is pure disinformation. I don't know if "auditors" is an overzealous true-believer, a conspiracy nut, or an agent provocatuer; but you believe his/her posts at the peril of your own credibility.
One of the deadliest traps set by an authority structure, such as a company or government, is disinformation. By that term, I mean the deliberate release of some true information mixed with some false information. Should it picked up, the power structure says, "Look! Lies!"
and the gullible say, "Because the one part is false, all must be false! And because the person or organization that said this is wrong now, they must always be wrong!" Thus, no matter how true or carefully verified anything ever again said by that person or group about the power structure, it is dismissed out of hand.
The lesson to be learned is to not engage in _any_ speculation - believe only provable facts.
Two of "auditors" posts, messages 21 and 55, are pretty much copy pasting of text from the links he/she cites. My purpose is to refute what "auditors" says, not what "auditors" quotes other people as saying.
Herein is a point by point refutation of the thread. Fact check my counter-claims. Don't assume that I or any information I offer is any more trustworthy than the person(s) or information I am discrediting.

Claim 1: "You might be very interested to know that Dr. Blass, is connected to a largescale corporation in Michigan state known as Cybernet Ventures Inc. (Engineering, medical, all other divisions include) and that this very company had a funny little tie in with Diebold."

Proof offered: None

Claim 2: "But the most interesting part of all, is CyberNET's own interest in Diebold, and helping them out of some dirty circumstances...."

Proof offered:

CyberNet Ventures, Inc 8189 Van Nuys Blvd , Los Angeles - porn site operators sued by other porn site operators for copywrite infringement This case was one of several cited by Diebold when trying to supress publication of internal company email on the same grounds.

+++++ NOTE: "auditors" confuses many companies with similar names and eventually says that they're all the same company. This is demonstrably untrue.

CyberNet Ventures, Inc / is a large porn site company in Los Angeles, CA
CyberNet Systems Corp. / is a mid-sized defense contractor in Ann Arbor, MI
Cybernet Software Systems / is a mid-sized software development company in San Jose, CA
Cybernet Research is/was a British ISP
CyberNET Group / owner of CyberNetCo (the raided company), an ISP in Grand Rapids, MI Run by an ex-con named Barton Watson, the famous raid concerns a US$33 million bank loan Watson allegedly obtained through fraud.

Likewise, in his statements concerning VA Linux, "auditors" confuses two other similarly named companies:

Sequoia Capital Partners - / 3000 Sand Hill Road Bldg. 4, Suite 180 Menlo Park, CA
Sequoia Voting Systems - See about half way down the page for the ownership history of Sequoia Voting

Claim 3: "More interesting though, is the fact that if you look and sniff around it appears CyberNET (who is also, direct finance of the white house and ambassador) had its systems freely distributed among universities...Schools, teaching sites, and so on everywhere. And more interestingly also worldwide."

Proof offered: None

Truth: Unknown - which CyberNet is being talked about? Also unknown - the meaning of the statement, "(who is also, direct finance of the white house and ambassador)"

Claim 4: "Another company was described as giving source to certain code.....Turns out CyberN is indeed an open source code distributor to several organizations, ultimately not even limited to voting companies. Also turns out an employee named Guitterez works(or had worked) there and created actual databases for elections across the USA and easily the globe, that are certainly not MS Access. "

Proof offered:

Truth: under heading "Software Development Contractor", - meaning freelance developer - among other jobs, it says:

"Voter Information Database for Publius
Developed an application that generated preview ballots for voters. The application was deployed in Michigan for the November 1998 elections. Voters were able to retrieve a preview ballot using their name and city. The preview ballot provided information about candiates and links to candiate web sites.


ODBC Connector for Cybernet Systems Corporation
Developed a bridge between a real-time data collection application and relational databases."

+++++Auditors conflates two minor, seperate contracts, one for the State of Michigan and the other for a company with CyberNet in its name into "created actual databases for elections across the USA and easily the globe"

Claim 5: "And of course on top of all this, ChoicePoint government who controls voting name rosters, being issued by Jeb Bush to directly not only take off the felon purge lists, but keep them as well. Authorities issued repeated orders for him to turn it off and instead he saved all the names to some hard drive and area around there in order to use them all again later."
Proof offered:,1283,65377,00.html...

Truth:,1283,65377,00.html... The article doesn't say anything remotely like "auditors" claims it does. Further, ChoicePoint does not control voting rosters. They supply "purge lists" to those that do control voting rosters. For the whole story read Greg Palasts book The Best Democracy Money Can Buy.

Claim 6: "ChoicePoint is a government run company who is in charge of voting names, other civil records."

Proof offered: /

Truth: / "Headquartered outside of Atlanta, ChoicePoint employs approximately 4,200 people in more than 50 locations. ChoicePoint shares are traded on the New York Stock Exchange under the symbol CPS."

Claim 7: "Of course the vote totals were flipped: Using obvious malicious code of rigged names across the board, some that possibly don't even exist (see: evicted felon/citizen roster) and even adoptions for all anyone knows."

Proof offered: None

Truth: Something stinks. Is it fraud, incompetence, or both?

Claim 8: "Schools involved clearly are not the only ones as Cal Tech and universities constantly stating the exit polls mean nothing, are all possible suspects too."

Proof offered: None

Truth: Exit polls really don't mean much.

Claim 9: "Several reports I've seen states they are the same CyberNET...I'm not sure what level this goes to, as many pages on the net seem to be not found (removed)"

Proof offered:

Truth: The links "auditors" posted contain no information that has any bearing on anything. However, the ownership and histories of the individual companies can be verified. See the note under Claim 1.

Claim 10: "Also there's lots more information on CyberNET too when you dig into it deeper. They created some software called "SourcePlus" control most information systems/websites and other equipment ChoicePoint has for the offices, worked on election databases through the 90s and so on."

Proof offered: None

Truth: SourcePlus is a marketing scheme in which a company that buys a hardware/software bundle from CyberNET Group also gets free tech support for the bundle. It is not "software". It does not and cannot "control most information systems/websites."
Nothing on any CyberNET Group page indicates ChoicePoint is a customer. Nothing on the ChoicePoint website indicates they are a customer. Nothing through indicates they ever did business together. Likewise, nothing on CyberNET Group's website or via indicates CyberNET Group has had anything to do with election databases in the 90s or _ever_.

Claim 11: "Guitterez people (his family) are on the official committees, other election boards, these guys are connected to NASED and even Sequoia owns part of CyberNet...This is all hooked into Linux, the rivals use both Linux and Windows NT Plus: The actual source code they sold off like crazy is called SourcePlus(NetMAX) and is used in nearly every single thing to do with elections there is....."

Proof offered: None

Truth: This is a little complicated so bear with me. Apparently, the "Guitterez people (his family)" refers to Alan Guitterez, the software engineer discussed under Claim 4. Short of asking Mr. Guitterez about his family, I see no way to prove or refute this claim.
At this point "auditors" again confuses CyberNET Group with CyberNet Systems and Sequoia Voting Systems with Sequoia Captial Partners when saying "Sequoia owns part of CyberNet." This isn't true. I'll come back to this in a moment.
SourcePlus(NetMAX), "actual source code they sold off like crazy," is two different products sold by two different companies. As shown under Claim 10, SourcePlus isn't software. NetMAX is a product of CyberNet Systems: /. NetMAX products are based on the Linux 2.4.9 kernel and derived from RedHat 7.2. They are typical server/vpn/firewall applications - not voting system related at all.

Claim 12: "Sequoia voting owns ALL of VA Lin and is tied to CyberNET at the top....."

Proof offered: None

Truth: Sequoia Capital Partners, not Sequoia Voting Systems, bought 25% of VA Linux (now VA Software) in 1999.

Claim 13 "GEMS is all really a windows NT program, and Diebold supposedly owns that...."

Proof offered: None. In fact this contradicts part of Claim 11 regarding Linux being "used in nearly every single thing to do with elections there is....."

Truth: / Diebold uses a customized version of Windows CE.


I have not refuted every assertion by "auditors." This does not mean I consider those statements to be factual, only that this is getting tedious. Also, this person has made some claims so baseless and offered proof so irrrelevant that contradicting them is a waste of time. I refer to messages 34, 36, 52, and 55 in particular. If I were Alan Guitterez, I would consider suing "auditors."
I don't know "auditors" motivation in making these posts, but anyone believing them needs to increase their medication dosage.


Space Cowboy

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators

Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC