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Reply #23: Hang on a second: Wilms merely commented on the MAPS in the OP. Then all "hell" broke loose! Read: [View All]

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Hang on a second: Wilms merely commented on the MAPS in the OP. Then all "hell" broke loose! Read:
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 06:34 PM by Bill Bored
Wilms wrote in post #2:

Not one of these states are implementing audits to provide any significant statistical degree of confidence in the closest of races (ie: the one to most worry about). A few months back I challenged OTOH to prove my contention wrong, asking him to name a single state, and he folded. And he's a guy that knows a thing or two about this stuff.

Now, the NJ law has teeth, but it is, in essence, pending because they're still using paper-less DRE's. MN may be somewhat an exception. Smarter folks may show up to parse that one out.

Sorry to say that VV is papering over the fact that not enough paper is being counted to assure us of correct outcomes in the most serious of cases. And that's just plain wrong.

Feel free to audit this post for accuracy.

This was followed by DD's understandable but misdirected frustration over the situation in PA. She wrote:

Who the hell cares what the statistically significant audit number is, because when paperless DREs are used, there is NO way in ANY case to count ANYTHING that will assure a correct outcome.

And THAT's plain wrong.

DD did not address Wilms' concerns and the concerns of MANY in "paper ballot" states such as FL, MI and now New York, who are really having a devil of a time getting our votes counted -- just like in PA and the other "DRE states." In fact, I would say that our concerns have been TRIVIALIZED because the DRE bogeyman is a more conspicuous, but no less dangerous, problem than computerized ballot scanners.

The high court ruling in New York that denied a hand count of the paper ballots in a close and crucial election is deplorable. It's no better than Bush v. Gore, and in many ways worse! At least they counted some of the undervotes in FL 2000!

Now, either we find a way to deal with this, or dare I say, spend time on another worthy cause (which I think I suggested up thread). Merely getting paper and toothless spot-check "audits" is not the solution. It never was. So we damn well better "care what the statistically significant audit number is." And by the way, there is no such thing because it's a different "number" for every contest, and depends on the election results, which should be unofficial until the audit is completed, unlike election results in New York, Florida and elsewhere.

Making personal attacks, threatening to out people, ignoring the science, accusing those of us who choose not to be self-promoters of NOT working on the problem, when they might be doing more behind the scenes than we can imagine, is plain wrong too.

Finally, I still have not received an answer to my request for "a realistic strategy to get actual verified election results in the foreseeable future." But I do realize it's the holiday season. :party:
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