Reply #18: Honestly, I think we've lost anyway. Even a public option imho.

[riderinthestorm]

And it has nothing to do with the single payer v. public option debate since that debate isn't even getting any kind of a fair shot. THAT's my point. There is no real debate happening here - we're going to get 1.87% decrease in costs spread over the next 10 years (utterly unsupervised naturally) - hooray for change! and be expected to live with it as some kind of major reform. I don't see how you believe Obama has "allowed" anyone to fuck up. Our own side is against any real reform - they are bought and paid for by their corporate masters.

People who advocate for single payer are being told to shut up and unify with public option advocates to "get it done" when from my perspective, that means we're starting out from a much weaker negotiating position. Madfloridian believes this is some kind of "divide and conquer" thing that will defeat health care reform but I just don't see that. The corporate connection with Congress is extremely hardened - I think we can squabble amongst ourselves (there I said it myself), and still hammer at that wall together with some effect.

I think we lost in the 90s because healthcare costs weren't such a big horrible issue back then. While it was bad, there wasn't such a vast number of uninsured, the costs weren't so staggering, not THAT many people (cough) were driven into bankruptcy by medical costs.... Our (collective) healthcare situation is now so much more dire, it's impossible for the PTB to put off - the American public has finally said "enough!"

We own the Congress and the Executive branch but as Max Baucus demonstrates, their corporate masters are more important and powerful.

So why not ask for the whole enchilada? Honestly, I think we're going to get one unfried bean out of this reform after it's "watered down". I say again, I see you and madfloridian's point but the corporate interests could give a shit about any of it. They're farting in our general direction after eating the whole enchilada while telling us unfried beans are good for us.