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Reply #121: listen to your wife.... [View All]

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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #120
121. listen to your wife....
Edited on Fri Jul-22-11 09:18 AM by pelsar
First off let me congratulate you on marrying an obviously very intelligent women, one who you should probably listen to more:

There is at least one person who agrees with your superiority version of the rights of democratic nations My wife!.....She thinks the UN should be replaced by the UDN (United Democratic Nations).

ok so we agree that "wrongs" are not equalthat i would say is one of my base arguments (zionism being the "lesser wrong")

I believe that in general the world has accepted it was wrong and although it cannot change 2,000 years of history, it can and does ensure that Jews today, have a high proportion of representation in government

but thats nothing newthis anti semitism thing comes and goes in waves in different geographic areas. Germany was one of the "enlightened" countries, Spain was also doing great before it dumped "its jews". Your claiming that "things have changed" has zero proof, its just belief.a belief that jews after so many times being fooled have a right not to believe.

Ah yes..I had forgotten your superiority version of the rights of democratic nations.The western democracies and Israel dont seem to agree with you, at least when it suits them....Remember Israels support for the Shah?...And even this year it continues to support King Abdullah and sided with Mubarak against the democratic revolution.

your confusing the superior governing morality of a govt based on civil rights etc vs the reality of politics in a very nasty world. It was right to work with Stalin in WWII against hitler, hitler was the "worser" of the two, I would argue that the shah had better potential for reform and support from iranians and made for a safer world than khomeni today. Democracies have to live in this world and using illiberal methods to protect themselves is simply a reality.

Just so that I am absolutely clear on this, can you confirm that, in your view, a democracy has the right to attack and democratize, say China, even if there is a possibility that the majority of Chinese prefer to be ruled by the existing non-democratic communist government?

yes..dictatorships can never have the "will of the people" for no longer than a single generation, hence there is no choice but the democracy if once is concerned with the "will of the people."

dictatorships, do not have real representation, their "voting" is pretty much a joke, if at all. So if there is a revolution and leader K takes over. When generation 2,3 ,4 grows up, they may not want to keep K (or his son) and may want a change. However revolutions do not come easy and when they start they don't always succeed. hence our youngsters in Generation 2,3,4 because of the dictatorship that they parents put in to place, will not get the chance for the change they want. If your recall, the iranian attempt failed, syrias is now failing, Egypt is now getting an army dominated version.

There is no "will of the people" in a dictatorship, there is only the power grab and the restriction of the those people.

so even if one group in a population prefers a dictatorship/strong man, they cannot be accommodated because it creates a situation where its very difficult to accommodate changes in the will of the people.

(and just to put some realism-the west may have the "right" to force a change, obviously in the real world, its not always a good idea to even try...).

Surely, as a democrat, you must accept that it is the will of the majority of the people that matters and there is little doubt that the majority of Palestinians did not want Zionist immigration

no the majority does not get automatic rights to create civilizations/societies based on taking away minority rights, etcsimply no. The majority has a single right and that is to create a society that provides equal rights. The Palestinians were not going in that direction, to say the least-creating an additional dictatorship or adding to the syrian/egyptian/jordanian ones was/is not a moral right.

The land mass that made up Palestinian was nothing more than a space between other arbitrary lines in the sand, that unlike other areas had a decent chance to produce a democracy since those that those who would come (the zionists) to create that democracy were going to stay (vs the US army that will leave iraq and afganistan in their failed efforts)

If something's right for me, it's right for you; if it's wrong for you, it's wrong for me

If it was not morally wrong of the Zionists to do that, then it was not morally wrong of the Western world to dominate the Jews and make them live as second class citizens!..... The two action were carried out by western civilizationsIs that being ethnocentric?

first off, obviously i'm ethnocentricbelieving that democracy has no equal in our world..but now i understand what your getting at with Chomsky. its definitely ethnocentric to say what is good for me is good for you, if we limit it to western democracies it works under the moral code, but its limited to democracies. The chinese will probably disagree with what Chomsky thinks is good.

but Zionism does not regulate lawfully its citizens to second class, so i'm not sure how it fits.

Had I been a Jew in those circumstances, I hope I would have declared that I wanted nothing to do with a scheme which perforce made an innocent people second-class citizens.As a Jew, I would be well aware of how unpleasant that position could be.

that choice was made by many.hence the 6 million..commiting your children to be gassed could easily be claimed to be an immoral decision.

Of course industrial genocide should be everyone's interest, and universal support for international protests, sanctions and anything short of declaring war....However, would the potential killing of 6 million Jews alone be justification for the Allies to declare war on Germany?WW2 resulted in the deaths of some 50 million peopleShould the possibility of saving 6 million outweigh the possibility of causing the death of 44 million?

well lets at least start with throwing out the window the concept that Stace puts forth of "Hands off other countries" your sanctions already affect the citizens of the country your "protesting against." the next question is simply how far are you willing to go in interfering in a "countries business"

after its been discovered that sanctions don't work.what next? (as Hitlers engineers start with the different concepts of industrial genocide....). Realistilcy you don't have a whole lot of options, short of invading to produce a change. Don't forget the "people" were behind hitler...that majority who were exercising their rights as a sovereign nation (to kill their own).

so if you do act to stop that industrial genocide, your violating the sacred rule of majority rules (and their choice) and the sanctity of the "nation". If you don't act to stop industrial genocide do you really have the moral authority to tell those that survived that they dont have the moral right to create a nation where they can defend themselves?

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