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Reply #13: As much as I like the page you linked to, your use of fallacies is fallacious [View All]

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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. As much as I like the page you linked to, your use of fallacies is fallacious
Mostly. My subject is most definitely not fallacious but in deference to your first critique, I'll word the body of my post a bit more carefully: If you think that more guns in the hands of more people do not necessarily lead to more dead children, then explain why.

Your second critique (false dichotomy) is not applicable, since there is an actual dichotomy being proposed. Either there is a causal relationship or there isn't. No one is creating a false pair of choices from a larger collection of possibilities. (The plurium interrogationum and false dichotomy fallacies are actually mutually exclusive.)

And audiatur et altera pars makes no sense whatsoever. I am asking about a simple link between two conditions. How is that a case of failing to state assumptions? In fact, until I start arguing for a particular conclusion, audiatur is not even possible.

However, it was nice of you to include your own set of logical fallacies in your answer. Let's take a look:
It's entirely possible that if there were fewer guns in the hands of fewer people, homicidally inclined minors would find other ways to kill other kids.

This is a clear case of ignoratio elenchi (irrelevant conclusion). Just because some people may find other ways to kill kids, that does not support the assertion that an equal or greater number of children will be killed by other methods.

Try Googling "Damilola Taylor," "Paul Erhahon," "James (or Jamie) Bulger" and "Lyle Tulloch," all murdered using means other than guns. Then there was Rhys Jones, whose death in a bicycle-by shooting by a teenager was not prevented by private possession of handguns being completely illegal in the UK (but "if guns are outlawed...").

Do I even need to point out the use of anecdotal evidence?

It's not an "either/or" proposition, because there are many factors other than the legality of private ownership of firearms alone that determine the answer to this question.

Straw man. I never mentioned making private ownership of firearms illegal. Also, a bit of your own audiatur et altera pars since you never state any of your alleged "many factors".

The problem, as ever with gun control, is that the people most likely to give up any guns they own are the people least likely to use them for unlawful purposes.

Here's a real example of a false dichotomy. You're implying that the only way to reduce the number of guns is for people to give up guns they currently own.

Also, you state that law-abiding gun owners would be the first in line to hand in their guns. That's a logical fallacy I like to call "bullshit". Are you really saying that Cletus with his gun rack and his "cold dead hands" bumper sticker is going to happily hand in his weapons when asked to by the government? And if Cletus doesn't want to turn in his guns, does that mean that he was planning on using them for some unlawful purpose?

If we have fewer guns in the hands of fewer people, but the only people who are left with guns are all puericidal sociopaths, then we might all too readily end with more dead kids as result.

And finally, you treat us to a classic example of petitio principii (begging the question) by basing your argument on the fallacious assumption that fewer guns means that only puericidal sociopaths will own guns.

So, the bad news is that none of your arguments make sense, but the good news is that we're both now ready to kick the ass of the next creationist we run into. ;)

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