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The very strange eyewitnesses of de Menezes' death [View All]

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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 10:31 AM
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The very strange eyewitnesses of de Menezes' death
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That eyewitnesses can get things wrong is a well-known fact. Yet, what happened in the case of de Menezes death is indeed an extraordinary case of completely wrong eyewitnesses accounts that certainly does deserve a closer look.

First of all lets recall what was officially told after the death:
As the police was around at the moment of de Menezes death all official statements given about the circumstances didnt rely on witness accounts of civilians but was based on first-hand information by the police itself.

A police statement said his "clothing and suspicious behavior at the station added to" officers' suspicions, and Police Chief Ian Blair said de Menezes challenged police and refused to obey orders.
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/25/london.t...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

But today we know that neither his clothing nor his behaviour was suspicious nor was he challenged and reused to obey.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4158832.stm


Now, lets turn to the eyewitnesses.
The most impressive account is certainly of Anthony Larkin:
Commuter Anthony Larkin, who was also on the train at Stockwell station, told 5 Live he saw police chasing a man.
"I saw these police officers in uniform and out of uniform shouting 'get down, get down', and I saw this guy who appeared to have a bomb belt and wires coming out and people were panicking and I heard two shots being fired."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706913.stm

This is obviously completely wrong. Maybe he just wanted to gain attention. Anyway.
There are more strange eyewitnesses:
Teri Godly (very close to de Menezes)
"A tall Asian guy, shaved head, slight beard, with a rucksack got in front of me. Shortly after that, as I was about to get onto the train, eight or nine undercover police with walkie talkies and handguns started screaming at everyone to 'Get out, get out'," she said.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/22/london.eyewi...

Again: Everything is wrong!
De Menezes is white skinned and by no means asian-looking.
No rucksack, she doesnt mention that he actually boarded the tube as we know he did.

Maybe we can again put this account aside but the surprising detail asian. In fact three eyewitnesses speak of asian-looking. Why do they all get it so wrong? (This is btw the only detail the eyewitness got wrong that the police didnt confirm in their own statements).

Londoner Dan Copeland was in the carriage in which the man was shot.
He told BBC News: "We were sitting for a few minutes on the platform, then we heard shouting from the concourse between the two platforms.
"Then the man burst in through the door to my right and grabbed hold of the pole and a person by the glass partition near the door, diagonally opposite me.
"An officer jumped on the door to my left and screamed, 'Everybody out!'

"People just froze in their seats cowering for a few seconds and then leapt up.
"As I turned out the door onto the platform, I heard four dull bangs.
"I ran past an armed officer who was standing on the platform and ran up the stairs."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

Why does Copeland not mention the action of Hotel 3 who was aboard the carriage before de Menezes (a detail btw that has not been explained so far!) and calling Hes in here.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1743478,00...

And the following detail is simply completely wrong:
the man burst in through the door to my right and grabbed hold of the pole and a person by the glass partition near the door, diagonally opposite me.
"An officer jumped on the door to my left and screamed, 'Everybody out!'


Neither did de Menezes grabbed hold of the pole and a person nor did an officer enter right afterwards calling Everybody out!. Instead a plain-cloth policeman Hotel 3 called Hes here while de Menezes was already sitting.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1743478,00...

Q : Some eyewitnesses have described him as a man of Asian appearance. Can you describe the man that you saw ?
Well he certainly had dark skin. I didn't really see his face. He jumped on so quickly and as I say his back was turned towards the majority of passengers. I presume the only person that would have seen his face would be the guy that he grabbed..."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706913.stm#
(click on video and on Copeland)

Again two details and again two details wrong.
Again he gave his account on the day of the shooting:
Neither had de Menezes dark skin nor was he turned towards the majority of the passengers.


The most famous one is certainly Mark Whitby who was literally all over the news right after the shooting. For a very strange reason he will also be the only eyewitness that actually described in detail how the victim looked like although many witnesses were in the same carriage as de Menezes.
And this is what he said:
"I was sitting on the train... I heard a load of noise, people saying, 'Get out, get down'.
"I saw an Asian guy. He ran on to the train, he was hotly pursued by three plain clothes officers, one of them was wielding a black handgun.
"He half tripped... they pushed him to the floor and basically unloaded five shots into him," he told BBC News 24.
"As got onto the train I looked at his face, he looked sort of left and right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, a cornered fox.
"He looked absolutely petrified and then he sort of tripped, but they were hotly pursuing him, couldn't have been any more than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half tripped and was half pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand.
"He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him.
"He had a baseball cap on and quite a sort of thickish coat - it was a coat you'd wear in winter, sort of like a padded jacket.
"He might have had something concealed under there, I don't know. But it looked sort of out of place with the sort of weather we've been having, the sort of hot humid weather.
"He was largely built, he was quite a chubby sort of guy.
"I didn't see any guns or anything like that - I didn't see him carrying anything. I didn't even see a bag to be quite honest.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706913.stm

"He looked like a Pakistani but he had a baseball cap on, and quite a thickish coat. It was a coat like you would wear in winter, a sort of padded jacket. It looked out of place in the weather we've been having."
Whitby said he had been about five yards away from where the incident occurred and was "totally distraught" by what he had seen.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/22/london.eyewi...

"They held it down to him and unloaded five shots into him. I saw it. He's dead, five shots, he's dead."
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1303&id=1670842...


Mark Whitby is very close seated to the shooting and he gives many details of what happened and how the victim looked like. But basically all and every detail he gives is simply completely wrong.

1. He describes de Menezes as Asian. Yet, he was white and also describe by his surveillance team as white.

2. He states that he wear a thickish coat. Yet he wore a Denim jacket.
Whitby says: He half tripped... they pushed him to the floor. Yet, we know by the account of Hotel 3 that the victim was pushed back into the seat:
I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side. I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting ... I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away on to the floor of the carriage."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,...
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,155...

3. Whitby says: ]"As got onto the train I looked at his face, he looked sort of left and right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, a cornered fox.
Yet, we know that de Menezes boarded the tube and sat down calmly. He was unaware that he was being followed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,...

4. Whitby says that he was hotly pursued and the policemencouldn't have been any more than two or three feet behind him. This again is not true as de Menezes had time to sit down:
He sat down with a glass panel to his right about two seats in. I took a seat to his left-hand side on the same carriage and there were about two or three members of the public between me and the male in the denim jacket.
When Hotel Three saw plainclothes CO19 officers arriving on the platform, he stood up and moved to the door of the carriage.
I placed my left foot against the open carriage door to prevent it shutting . . . I shouted Hes here and indicated the male in the denim jacket with my right hand. ()
As Hotel Three later recorded: He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the officers.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1743478,00...

5. Whitby says: ]"They held it down to him and unloaded five shots into him. I saw it. Yet, de Menezes was shot eleven times (three times he was missed).
http://www.sundayherald.com/51372

Ok. I dont want to discuss the cognitive capacities of Mark Whitby. Of course eyewitnesses can get it wrong. Yet, it is rather unusual Id say that they witness exactly the same details the police will confirm. To underline: Mark Whitby spoke to BBC BEFORE the police gave any accounts to the press.
Therefore my question:
What are the odds that Mark Whitby not only gets all details wrong but got them exactly as wrong as the police?

This coincidence cant be explained by assuming that the police relied on Whitby in their official accounts. They had enough eyewitnesses at the location of the shooting themselves.

Another central witness that got apparently the story as wrong as the police is Chris Wells:
"The next thing I saw was this guy jump over the barriers and the police officers were chasing after him and everyone was just shouting 'Get out, get out,'" Wells said.
Christopher Scaglione was also leaving the station when he heard a bang, followed by shouting.
"People then started to run and I heard two or three more bangs, like people shooting."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/22/london.eyewi...

Yet, as we know de Menezes didnt jump the barrier.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4158832.stm

Many he took a policeman for the victim but why does the police evoke exactly this kind of behavior by stating:
A police statement said his "clothing and suspicious behavior at the station added to" officers' suspicions, and Police Chief Ian Blair said de Menezes challenged police and refused to obey orders.
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/25/london.t...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

And all journals in fact quoted Chris Wells as a proof for the statement of the police. But as already said: Why did the police lie?
And why does an eyewitness exactly recall what the police falsely claimed? And both statements were from 7/7.

There are other accounts that seem to be quite accurate but yet fail to mention the crucial detail:
Rob Lowe:
"The Tube was stationary and then a man came on who I presume now to be a plain clothes policeman, but at the time I didn't know who he was.
"He was looking quite shifty, getting up and sitting back down again. I felt a bit awkward around him. And then he seemed to shout at some people on the other platform who then all came rushing.
"The Tube suddenly filled up with loads of people running down to the end of my carriage. Then I heard probably four or five loud bangs and saw a bit of smoke. More armed policemen appeared, telling us all to get out of the Tube and people started running off," he said.
"It did look like there was somebody on the floor at the end. I didn't know whether it was a bag or a person - but then there were a lot of people around him and then I heard the bangs."

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1303&id=1670842...
http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?Secti...

Rob Lowe must be quite close to the incident as he recalls clearly the behavior of Hotel 3 but wWhy does Rob Lowe not mention what Hotel 3 mentioned himself:
As Hotel Three later recorded: He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the officers. I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso pinning his arms to his side.
I then pushed him back onto the seat where he had previously been sitting with right-hand side of my head pressed against the right-hand side of his torso.
()
At this stage his body seemed straight and he was not in a natural sitting position, recorded Hotel Three. I then heard a gunshot very close to my ear and was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage. I shouted police and held up my hands. I was then dragged out of the carriage by an armed officer who appeared to be carrying a long-barrelled weapon.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1743478,00...


There are more eyewitness accounts. Yet the following accounts never give any detail of the shooting or de Menezes physical appearance although many of them were sitting very close to de Menezes:

Fellow passenger Jason Dines
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1303&id=1670842...

Ben Anderson in the next carriage:
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1303&id=1670842...

Simon Dixon in the same carriage:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,...

Chris Martin at the platform:
http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?Secti...


So, to conclude:
What we do have are either eyewitnesses (especially Mark Whitby) who not only got every detail completely wrong but whose accounts correspond exactly with the official storyline of the police after the shooting.
Then we have a witness that somehow not mentions the crucial detail that he must have witnessed.
Then we have a curious absence of eyewitnesses that actually saw the victim besides Mark Whitby (who describe a clearly different person than de Menezes).
And we have many accounts of people who should have seen more as they were in the carriage yet whose accounts lack any important detail.
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