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vive la commune

(94 posts)
49. The definition of democratic socialism
Mon May 18, 2015, 02:55 AM
May 2015

is problematic, because people use it to refer to more than one thing. Even political scientists disagree about the term. It can mean socialism brought about by electoral (democratic) means instead of revolution (think Salvador Allende), or it can mean an approach to socialism that rejects authoritarianism. It can include phasing in socialism through gradual reforms, or through a radical program. Most people who call themselves socialists of all different types will tell you they believe in some form of democracy, so the term “democratic socialist” can sometimes be politically loaded.

What you are specifically talking about (capitalism plus social programs) is more precisely referred to as social democracy. That's where the distinction should be made—between socialism and social democracy, not between socialism and democratic socialism. People do frequently use the terms democratic socialist and social democrat interchangeably, but this isn't really correct, though they do overlap and there is a historical relationship between the two. The major problem with the definition of democratic socialism is that depending on usage, it straddles the fault line on the left between anticapitalism and capitalism. Some things that people call “democratic socialism” fall on the anticapitalist side, and other things, on the capitalist side, with a big, broad fuzzy line of gradual reformism in the middle. If you try to confine the meaning of democratic socialism to social democracy only, to mean a system that accepts capitalism or a “mixed” economy, you are excluding radical anticapitalists like Eugene Debs. Which isn't really right.

Some quick history--most socialist parties in Europe were established in order to bring about socialism (social ownership of the means of production) through gradual reforms, but they ended up for the most part just compromising with capitalism. Modern social democracy grew out of socialism, or at least out of an idea of a commitment to socialism in the past. I really suggest looking up socialism, democratic socialism, and social democracy on Wikipedia to get some historical background on the subject.

Also, I just want to mention that DSA isn't the only organization in the U.S. that considers themselves in the democratic socialist tradition. For example, there is also the Socialist Party USA, and they are a third party. They don't work within the Democratic Party. Also, they are anticapitalist.

Bernie Sanders refers to himself as a democratic socialist. Is he? Well, he admires Eugene Debs, a staunchly anticapitalist and revolutionary democratic socialist who was one of the founders of the IWW. I think that's probably where his heart lies. I'm sure he'd love to be Eugene Debs. But he also admires Nordic model social democracy, and sees that as a direction he'd like this country to take. Is his platform socialist? Well, he does advocate supporting worker-owned cooperatives, which could be considered a nod in a socialist direction. But he's not, for example, advocating bringing the banks and major corporations into public ownership. Would he like to? Maybe, I don't know. Even if he did, it wouldn't be politically feasible because I don't think most people in the U.S. want that, at least not now. He's running on a practical progressive program to get big money out of politics and to try to prevent the gutting of the social programs that were won by so much struggle and bloodshed by the working class. I think he's very concerned about the state of the nation and our world, and wants to try to wrest some control back from the oligarchy who are destroying us.

You know what? I would just let Bernie be Bernie and let him define himself the way he wants to, and to explain where he's coming from, rather than putting so much energy into trying to define democratic socialism. He is going to get red-baited anyway, and fiercely. He does an excellent job of staying on topic and letting people know where he stands. If I were to try to explain to others what he is and where he comes from if the whole socialism conversation comes up, I'd keep it simple and say “Yes, he does consider himself a democratic socialist. As far as his platform goes, what he wants to do is kind of like FDR's New Deal", and then explain his 12-point program. People will either accept him or they won't.

His platform may be social democratic rather than fully socialist, but I think it does Mr. Sanders a disservice to try to insist that he has nothing to do with the socialist tradition whatsoever, because that's not true, and I think he'd tell people so himself. He has a deep respect for socialism and it's history and tradition, and I'm pretty sure he sees himself as a part of that history and tradition. Personally, when he insists to the media that he is a democratic socialist, I hear him saying "I'm not an authoritarian, stop blowing the Stalinist dog whistle already" rather than "I'm not at all a socialist, socialists are totally different than democratic socialists. I really love the heck out of capitalism and I just want to add a little universal healthcare to the mix". See what I'm saying? I hope this makes sense.

Recommendations

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Whenever I see that phrase, "Avowed Democratic Socialist" - I feel the rest of that dog whistle djean111 May 2015 #1
Who believes in working within capitalism AND the Democratic Party. merrily May 2015 #3
Correct - HRC - Hope And Change Redux - America Never Seems To Learn cantbeserious May 2015 #4
If you are implying that Bernie is insincere, may I remind you that this is a group for merrily May 2015 #15
Implying Just The Opposite - Others Are Not Sincere cantbeserious May 2015 #23
OK. In that case, post is consistent with supporting Bernie for President (and beyond). merrily May 2015 #24
Bernie Has My Full Support For Both The Primaries And The General Election cantbeserious May 2015 #26
Yep. Good for you. merrily May 2015 #27
Bernie Ain't A Commie Marxist RoccoR5955 May 2015 #16
Yep. SusanCalvin May 2015 #32
Jamie Dimon, Jackpine Radical May 2015 #38
! SusanCalvin May 2015 #39
A perfect description. riqster Jun 2015 #53
Thanks. Lots clarified here. K and R. n/t Smarmie Doofus May 2015 #2
I've asked that myself malthaussen May 2015 #5
Yeah, but.... merrily May 2015 #14
It's a good dog-whistle. Politic is the art of the possible. Joe Chi Minh May 2015 #22
Exactly right. fasttense May 2015 #17
Jeb Bush, avowed Republican… Jackpine Radical May 2015 #40
I see it that way myself... malthaussen May 2015 #42
The 'radical right' in this country would be the Freikorps that showed up at the KingCharlemagne Jun 2015 #54
Agreed, but they are never called that. malthaussen Jun 2015 #55
Maybe if we stoped looking at kacekwl May 2015 #6
AGREED! Labels are not a problem for me. I do think it's helpful to have info handy when merrily May 2015 #9
I could rant about repiggies all day rock May 2015 #7
Thanks. From what I've seen on this board, Republicans are not the only ones who are merrily May 2015 #13
Bernie might be a socialist at heart, he calls himself that, Cheese Sandwich May 2015 #8
I thought he calls himself a Democratic Socialist and an Independent. merrily May 2015 #11
For me democratic socialism just means socialism with democracy Cheese Sandwich May 2015 #18
"Political democracy, regulation of the economy and a welfare state" could easily have been used to merrily May 2015 #29
Yeah I don't disagree with anything you've said. Cheese Sandwich May 2015 #45
Thank you for that. I am glad I looked into this. It's been interesting. merrily May 2015 #48
I don't think of it as the government owning businesses but rather as a system in which JDPriestly May 2015 #28
When you say "it" in your subject line, does "it" refer to socialism, or to Democratic Socialism? merrily May 2015 #30
democratic socialism. The European system. Especially in German, Austria and Scandinavia. JDPriestly May 2015 #35
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." merrily May 2015 #37
FDR was married, as we know, to Eleanor Roosevelt, the niece of Teddy JDPriestly Aug 2015 #56
Well, Ahem, I happen to be a founding member (1982) of the . . FairWinds May 2015 #10
Thank you for your input! I believe my OP links, and quotes from, that website? merrily May 2015 #12
P.S. Congratulations on having been a founding member. That must have been so exciting. merrily May 2015 #31
I always thought I was a Democrat. Now I know I am a Democratic Socialist Autumn May 2015 #19
Surprise! merrily May 2015 #33
K&R! Thanks, learned a lot from this. Dustlawyer May 2015 #20
Me, too! And you're more than welcome. merrily May 2015 #34
K & R !!! Thespian2 May 2015 #21
When I see the words, "democratic socialist," I think Germany and Austria and generally JDPriestly May 2015 #25
"Liberal" also has a somewhat different connotation in Europe than it does in the US. merrily May 2015 #36
Thank you Merrily. Very informative. jwirr May 2015 #41
You're most welcome. My pleasure. I learned from putting it together. merrily May 2015 #43
More info on US Democratic Socialists FairWinds May 2015 #44
Thank you. It's very true that merrily May 2015 #47
The traditional definition of socialism is public ownership of all means of production eridani May 2015 #46
Thank you. A lot has been devoted for many years to make merrily May 2015 #51
The definition of democratic socialism vive la commune May 2015 #49
Bernie calls himself a Democratic Socialist, not a Social Democrat, and an Independent. merrily May 2015 #50
^ Good analysis. TBF May 2015 #52
Agreed and some amplifications. stevenleser Aug 2015 #60
Bernie Sanders tells us what it means to be a Democratic Socialist. merrily Aug 2015 #57
Currently I am a registered democrat for over 25 year but when people ask me I tell them I am a walkthewalkorstfu Aug 2015 #58
LOL! Thank you. The New Deal and the Great Society are great examples of Democratic Socialism. merrily Aug 2015 #59
Bernie needs to have a "What is Democratic Socialism" section on his website and needs to educate... jessjgonz Nov 2015 #61
Have you considered contacting his campaign about this? merrily Nov 2015 #62
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