History of Feminism

gollygee

(22,336 posts)

101. This is the exact problem

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 08:02 PM

Jan 2013

You want to re-focus the whole movement. But you should not be deciding what the focus of the movement is. Women should decide that.

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I use to believe/think that men could be feminists [View all] boston bean Jan 2013 OP

exactly BB. it is the last year of listening to men tell me what i am suppose to think, feel and seabeyond Jan 2013 #1

Isn't the word "meninist" what men who support feminism call themselves now? Little Star Jan 2013 #2

Sounds like a made up word for men... Deep13 Jan 2013 #277

It doesn't sound that way to me. I felt it was preceptive and a clever way to... Little Star Jan 2013 #285

That is a path many feminists have been on. redqueen Jan 2013 #3

this is what spawned my thread boston bean Jan 2013 #5

Yeah. redqueen Jan 2013 #7

I saw that early this morning, cringed, thought about responding, then lost the thread... hlthe2b Jan 2013 #38

Hello, broad brush! Meet generalization jollyreaper2112 Jan 2013 #4

i came here via another thread in GD... actslikeacarrot Jan 2013 #6

If a sizeable number of feminists prefer the term male ally, why is that a big deal? redqueen Jan 2013 #8

Once again, the true cognitive dissonance of some males boston bean Jan 2013 #10

Ok, now I see the original thread jollyreaper2112 Jan 2013 #25

the problem as I see it jollyreaper2112 Jan 2013 #12

Feminism is the struggle for equal rights for women. boston bean Jan 2013 #13

a couple three things. first, seabeyond Jan 2013 #16

good one again! Thanks Sea! boston bean Jan 2013 #18

I don't even know who's male or not jollyreaper2112 Jan 2013 #33

really? i think a lot of women as speaking out on the issues, expressing themselves well. i do not seabeyond Jan 2013 #36

"what basis do you have to say anything about it?" a womans movement and we are women, hear us roar? seabeyond Jan 2013 #9

LOL sea! good post! boston bean Jan 2013 #11

That's a different issue jollyreaper2112 Jan 2013 #14

uh jollyreaper2112 Jan 2013 #17

Are you a man? boston bean Jan 2013 #19

you are right, we may not be being fair and you may not have an understanding because seabeyond Jan 2013 #22

but how does changing terminology help? unblock Jan 2013 #49

here's how I read it jollyreaper2112 Jan 2013 #21

at this point i have to ask. sincerely. why do you "need" the title? seabeyond Jan 2013 #23

"that means shuttin the fuck up, listening to what they say, respecting them... redqueen Jan 2013 #28

offhand i can't think of a term for a pro-black black or a pro-homosexual homosexual unblock Jan 2013 #53

i have already told you why as have others. as i said to another poster, .... i will not roll my seabeyond Jan 2013 #58

Are you a feminist? ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #34

No they can't because they are not women. They can be supportive though.... Little Star Jan 2013 #15

Thanks for posting that. redqueen Jan 2013 #27

Thank you, you were the one who originally brought that to... Little Star Jan 2013 #42

I don't have to have first hand knowledge to have a good idea about something. Deep13 Jan 2013 #279

This is where I am at too gollygee Jan 2013 #20

and i think another thing a man has to be honest about, and some women also. are they feminists? seabeyond Jan 2013 #24

Well by "rights" I don't mean just legislative rights gollygee Jan 2013 #26

how does terminology help? now you can object to male jerks calling themselves "feminist allies". unblock Jan 2013 #29

Separatist feminism means no socializing with men. redqueen Jan 2013 #30

i don't disagree that there are different concepts involved. unblock Jan 2013 #41

Nope, not now and not ever. MuseRider Jan 2013 #31

you are not living the life of a woman. You are therefore an ally. seabeyond Jan 2013 #35

Exhausting is right. MuseRider Jan 2013 #37

I think there are well meaning men who try to use the label ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #32

I think excluding people based on sex might not be the best approach jeff47 Jan 2013 #39

what is a man being excluded from but the title of woman. he is not excluded from the cause seabeyond Jan 2013 #40

You answered your own question. jeff47 Jan 2013 #43

you need the title? why? yes, men are excluded from being a woman. that is an issue for you? seabeyond Jan 2013 #45

No, I don't need anything. jeff47 Jan 2013 #56

imo, wrong. it is a WOMAN movement. it is not about man/woman. it is ALL about women. seabeyond Jan 2013 #59

Am I a lesser person, because I am an LGBT rights ally and not LGBT? boston bean Jan 2013 #46

LGBT is identity, such as calling yourself a woman. jeff47 Jan 2013 #50

It is not exclusionary. Feminism is a womens movement. boston bean Jan 2013 #51

The movement doesn't require a particular gender by it's supporters jeff47 Jan 2013 #54

do you get that all of a sudden the feminist moved from womens rights to ALL peoples rights? seabeyond Jan 2013 #60

So men must be excluded then? jeff47 Jan 2013 #69

This is the exact problem gollygee Jan 2013 #101

I'm not. I'm asking why converting feminist to a discriminatory term is necessary to do so. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2013 #141

I think the term is misused in many cases gollygee Jan 2013 #252

No one is excluding you. We welcome you as an ally. Thank you for being an ally! boston bean Jan 2013 #44

The fact that "ally" must be added is exclusionary jeff47 Jan 2013 #47

"I'm not in any position to dictate terminology or anything." correct. you are not in the position seabeyond Jan 2013 #48

No, what's bothering me is we're repeating the same problems we caused by having men and women jeff47 Jan 2013 #52

Ah no. Feminism is a womens movement. boston bean Jan 2013 #55

Why do you have to listen to such men? jeff47 Jan 2013 #72

Thank you for you direction. Have a good night. boston bean Jan 2013 #75

Why, exactly, is that "direction"? jeff47 Jan 2013 #78

i do not agree. and i am sorry that this is your perception. what i have found is in order to seabeyond Jan 2013 #57

I suppose a large part of the difference of opinion jeff47 Jan 2013 #74

Hi Jeff.... Maybe part of what you have missed can be filled in by reading bettyellen Jan 2013 #97

fella below? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #99

I'm not going to try and educate you. It's clear you were never an ally. bettyellen Jan 2013 #102

So you would rather make baseless personal claims than engage in a discussion about the topic? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #103

Except that doesn't actually answer my question jeff47 Jan 2013 #138

Because its s waste of time trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff? bettyellen Jan 2013 #166

Wouldn't they just ignore the woman-only rule? jeff47 Jan 2013 #187

I can't agree that men will ever fully understand bettyellen Jan 2013 #201

We seem to be using slightly different words to mean the same thing. jeff47 Jan 2013 #208

How do you suggest dealing with them? bettyellen Jan 2013 #212

They weren't talking about trolls jeff47 Jan 2013 #219

no. not only trolls. men. that mean well. that support womens rights, and think seabeyond Jan 2013 #224

Well, I guess I'll try asking again jeff47 Jan 2013 #259

Neo liberals? Third way dems? Centrists? redqueen Jan 2013 #260

And they gave themselves different names to indicate they aren't liberals. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2013 #270

neo liberals means not liberals? redqueen Jan 2013 #274

it is the men that i have experience that claim to be feminist. i do not "let" them do shit. and i seabeyond Jan 2013 #263

And didn't you do this regardless of the gender restriction of feminist? jeff47 Jan 2013 #271

not a tough one. none of us in here really give a shit. MEN keep starting OPs claiming seabeyond Jan 2013 #278

oh it's a mix with trolls in there, but sometimes it's hard to tell. mostly it's guys who have a bettyellen Jan 2013 #238

Envision these same guys going into the AA group, or the LGBT group, Sheldon Cooper Jan 2013 #245

the chuckle is, it shows how instilled in patriarchy we are, and exactly what the issue is about seabeyond Jan 2013 #249

The longer you are actively involved with feminism, the more glaringly obvious it is. redqueen Jan 2013 #255

And its divisive NoOneMan Jan 2013 #62

then divisive we stand. does that mean you will not support womens rights? nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #64

Why does it matter what I think? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #67

It doesn't !! You've discredited yourself so thoroughly that bettyellen Jan 2013 #206

I don't see any exclusion here. Dash87 Jan 2013 #210

If a man strategizes and discusses the movement with women, he's an ally NoOneMan Jan 2013 #61

no fuckin way. lol. if men are not a part of the womans movement then women are being sexist. seabeyond Jan 2013 #63

Feminism isn't exclusively a women's movement NoOneMan Jan 2013 #66

"even those who are anatomically unsatisfying to you." tell man what he doesnt want to hear, and he seabeyond Jan 2013 #68

Straw men are tired and old NoOneMan Jan 2013 #70

Are you a feminist? ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #77

I have a penis NoOneMan Jan 2013 #79

I suppose you No One Man speaks for the entire feminsit movement, right? boston bean Jan 2013 #81

Did I suggest that? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #84

No one is excluding you from anything. boston bean Jan 2013 #80

"is that women don't garner the same respect" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #82

no, not sexist. I advocate for one god damned place where women boston bean Jan 2013 #120

Listen... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #125

Listen, it is sexist for a man to believe he knows what is best for the wimmin folk. boston bean Jan 2013 #126

I agree! NoOneMan Jan 2013 #131

Many are allies. boston bean Jan 2013 #132

the problem is you want this to be about men. it is NOT. it isnt about you. nothing to do with seabeyond Jan 2013 #129

... and in both these discussions, it is so clearly demonstrated... redqueen Jan 2013 #65

Actually ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #71

To be blunt, I'm only here because this thread showed up on the greatest page jeff47 Jan 2013 #76

Ok ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #83

So to sum up jeff47 Jan 2013 #145

In not on DU all the time, but I do chime in for support... Deep13 Jan 2013 #281

No, I'm insisting on promoting women's agency and equality. Deep13 Jan 2013 #280

This post is absolutely Helen Reddy Jan 2013 #73

Are women who don't want you to tell them what to focus on, protest, talk about, etc..... Swamp Lover Jan 2013 #85

that is a very huge issue and topic. and i would imagine that if we women addressed it seriously, seabeyond Jan 2013 #86

"not a single issue that women have brought up to the men" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #88

Dude, this is just one thread ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #89

Ah, thats right. Penis-havers aren't allowed to add their voices to any feminist issue NoOneMan Jan 2013 #90

except no one has said that. opposite of what you state. why ignore what is being said to make seabeyond Jan 2013 #92

I've listened to the argument and weighed it NoOneMan Jan 2013 #94

What are you talking about? ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #93

cooking dinner right now and then as a family we will sit together and enjoy each others company. seabeyond Jan 2013 #91

"Do you want to talk about important issues like..." "or just..." redqueen Jan 2013 #95

Oh, so excluding penis-havers is a very important issue to the feminists movement? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #96

Penis- havers. Huh ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #98

How is that a straw man? My biological features, or my chromosonal arrangement exclude me... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #100

yes. it excludes you from having an understanding of a womans experience. why is that hard? or seabeyond Jan 2013 #104

Of course I can't understand the woman's experience fully! NoOneMan Jan 2013 #108

do you believe and repel the patriarchy, the white male privilege. simple question. seabeyond Jan 2013 #118

Not entirely simple NoOneMan Jan 2013 #146

thank you. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #148

in other words, he doesn't really see that women alone have issues to fight for. boston bean Jan 2013 #164

yes. what i have help shown me that men are not feminist. the movement gets turned to ALL people seabeyond Jan 2013 #169

I see a self-affirming echo chamber forming NoOneMan Jan 2013 #174

Another straw man? Why? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #173

It makes us a group that fights for the issues that affect women. boston bean Jan 2013 #175

Not a bit. I agree NoOneMan Jan 2013 #180

I am an ally to many movements. boston bean Jan 2013 #181

Personally.... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #190

I had to stop at your 4th sentence, because you called me a TROLL boston bean Jan 2013 #195

If I could better describe what this thread was, I would NoOneMan Jan 2013 #199

"it excludes you from having an understanding of a womans experience." tama Jan 2013 #225

And some of them, like you, couldn't even be characterised as supporters. bettyellen Jan 2013 #106

Please don't tell me what I am here to do based on random, self-affirming guessing NoOneMan Jan 2013 #109

You showed your hand, fella. There's absolutely nothing in your posts bettyellen Jan 2013 #114

To be honest... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #116

wow, you can't even bring yourself to be an ally to feminists. boston bean Jan 2013 #117

and that would be the obvious in our face that men pretend is not happening. and we are suppose to seabeyond Jan 2013 #119

Why the insulting straw men? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #121

How would you know what would matter, when you haven't said it. boston bean Jan 2013 #122

I've said... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #128

honey trap... nice tell there... good night. boston bean Jan 2013 #130

Yes, you use them to catch flies or whatever else NoOneMan Jan 2013 #134

I set up nothing. I made a post. boston bean Jan 2013 #135

Right NoOneMan Jan 2013 #139

now, you are calling me a toll that set up a honey trap... boston bean Jan 2013 #143

you enchanting, mysterious, devious, witch. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #144

"Yes, I'm an evil woman" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #147

Well, I am a woman. You said I was a troll setting up a honey trap. boston bean Jan 2013 #150

It doesn't take special woman powers NoOneMan Jan 2013 #154

so, we are not acting nice enough, feminine enough, to gain your agreement with us wimminz. seabeyond Jan 2013 #136

Post removed Post removed Jan 2013 #140

i betcha hysterical and emotional also. but, when yo absolutely do not listen to what is being said seabeyond Jan 2013 #142

Yeah, well, I've already been called a troll and an enemy to feminism NoOneMan Jan 2013 #149

It is a waste of time for you to assert your offended sensibilities bettyellen Jan 2013 #124

"And history tells us, of you're stuck on this little point" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #137

No, it's an observation about YOU, based on your whiney bettyellen Jan 2013 #172

What do you know about feminism? ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #107

Snark? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #112

This message was self-deleted by its author redqueen Jan 2013 #110

Nope ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #87

I wish this had never become such a polarizing issue Xipe Totec Jan 2013 #105

I wish women weren't second class citizens. boston bean Jan 2013 #115

because you cannot have ownership of the womens movement it places you in 2nd class status? seabeyond Jan 2013 #123

Imagine my tepid enthusiasm. Xipe Totec Jan 2013 #205

do you not have wives, daughters, mothers, sisters, nieces and friends? that is not enough skin in seabeyond Jan 2013 #209

spot fucking on! bettyellen Jan 2013 #239

They are all women - they belong to the 1st class membership group Xipe Totec Jan 2013 #265

" not rely on male support" we have said repeatedly we need mens support. so i ask, why pretend seabeyond Jan 2013 #266

If you are speaking to a women audience, then I bow out Xipe Totec Jan 2013 #267

so, regardless of what the woman says, you will ignore them and interpret it to your advantage, seabeyond Jan 2013 #268

"We call the shots about your movement or we won't help" gollygee Jan 2013 #269

Message deleted by the DU Administrators TheRedJackal Jan 2013 #273

who are you jack? which of the 4 or 5 misogynist just kicked off are you? nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #275

anyone who says this.... never was "focusing their energies" on feminism, LOL. bettyellen Jan 2013 #241

Teabagger purity test. I get it Xipe Totec Jan 2013 #264

actually you don't. you keep claiming Sea and I both said that we did not, so dishonest of you. bettyellen Jan 2013 #286

I will take allies DonCoquixote Jan 2013 #111

of course that's fair. However, when a white woman begins telling latinos boston bean Jan 2013 #113

I don't know gollygee Jan 2013 #151

"it's OK for men to take charge of a movement that is all about women" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #158

What does "leadership" mean to you? gollygee Jan 2013 #159

I'm not part of that thread NoOneMan Jan 2013 #163

A couple of things: gollygee Jan 2013 #167

True NoOneMan Jan 2013 #184

No, I don't think anyone minds men giving an opinion gollygee Jan 2013 #191

Thanks for your opinion NoOneMan Jan 2013 #197

I used allies DonCoquixote Jan 2013 #186

my GOD don, that is so fuckin' easy. and so right on and true. and the men that pretend this is seabeyond Jan 2013 #133

let me be really clear, and even agressive in saying this to the men in this forum. the feminist seabeyond Jan 2013 #127

This thread validates an inability to debate the merits of an argument NoOneMan Jan 2013 #152

it is because you refuse to see or listen to the womens opinion on a womans movement and ONLY look seabeyond Jan 2013 #153

Thats the premise that is unsubstantiated! NoOneMan Jan 2013 #157

again... women have time and time again, explained in this thread the issue we deal with and seabeyond Jan 2013 #160

Enjoy your night NoOneMan Jan 2013 #165

i am sure. and thank you. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #171

You think anyone here thinks you are genuine in your "concerns"? HA bettyellen Jan 2013 #236

"Coddling men's ego" is a rather disgustingly male-hating phrase. Bonobo Jan 2013 #168

yes. coddle mens ego. and sometime we can DISCUSS this. and yes, my boys not only understand seabeyond Jan 2013 #176

of if they are constantly on the defensive. Which would boston bean Jan 2013 #178

Being defensive at the charge that men are little boys who need to be coddled. Bonobo Jan 2013 #182

I don't know what to say to someone who takes an observation boston bean Jan 2013 #192

An "observation" or an "offensive stereotype"? Bonobo Jan 2013 #196

It's not an offensive stereotype. boston bean Jan 2013 #198

That's not what Seabeyond was referring to. Bonobo Jan 2013 #200

So, it is about the men, right? boston bean Jan 2013 #220

No, IT is not if by IT you mean the larger issue of women's rights. Bonobo Jan 2013 #223

We just agreed, I thought, that it is pretty much a fact boston bean Jan 2013 #229

Outstanding. MuseRider Jan 2013 #189

Asking questions is not telling you what to do. jeff47 Jan 2013 #202

You can call people whatever you want, but... Bonobo Jan 2013 #155

Did my post say something different than that? boston bean Jan 2013 #156

Well yes. Bonobo Jan 2013 #161

I myself think that men who are supportive of feminism are allies. boston bean Jan 2013 #162

We have reached agreement. Bonobo Jan 2013 #170

yep, and it was a worthy topic for discussion. boston bean Jan 2013 #177

lmfao... it really is, that easy, lol. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #179

"I am a purple dragon with pink horns." Dash87 Jan 2013 #207

That argument cuts both ways. Bonobo Jan 2013 #211

The problem with that statement, is that being the President is a formal title. Dash87 Jan 2013 #214

Like I said, your argument cuts both ways. Bonobo Jan 2013 #218

You have anything better to do than make things up in your own mind boston bean Jan 2013 #248

That is grounds for banning from the group in my opinion. JTFrog Jan 2013 #250

'feeling the heavy hand of the patriarchy everywhere' seabeyond Jan 2013 #251

why cant women OWN, yes, i mean OWN the womens movement. is it too much to demand. not seabeyond Jan 2013 #183

What about men who think that only women should decide women's issues? liberal N proud Jan 2013 #185

again, when talking about black or gay issues, do you inject knowing better as a white or hetero? seabeyond Jan 2013 #188

Nope, those groups are better suited to know what is right. liberal N proud Jan 2013 #193

men, women, all other points in the spectrum DonCoquixote Jan 2013 #194

Well I will tell you this and I know it may get some upset. I think feminists helped southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #203

An unfortunate facet of social activism may be... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #217

Yes your right that there are lots of different ways to see the world. I guess people see it from southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #242

so, the only things you post are complaints about feminism, LOL bettyellen Jan 2013 #254

and that has nothing to do with this thread, but thank you. bettyellen Jan 2013 #240

Excuse me but who died and left you queen bee? I was just making a comment. Get over it. southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #243

"Well I will tell you this and I know it may get some upset." JTFrog Jan 2013 #246

Yep. southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #258

I guess "all feminist threads look alike" to you? bettyellen Jan 2013 #253

That is one reason I hate getting on these threads. People get so out of shape if you southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #257

Especially when you make a comment with the intent of getting people out of shape. JTFrog Jan 2013 #261

This message was self-deleted by its author southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #262

apology accepted, 100%. thanks! bettyellen Jan 2013 #284

How much of workers rights is in the purview of feminism? redqueen Jan 2013 #244

I find the concept of men demanding to be recognized as a feminist by women... interesting. Dash87 Jan 2013 #204

so disappointing sigmasix Jan 2013 #213

women have been enduring sexism/misogyny forever. how cavalierly you throw it back at women, seabeyond Jan 2013 #215

Since a lot of people seem to not understand the concept here, Dash87 Jan 2013 #216

right... sigmasix Jan 2013 #221

That's a false equivalency. Dash87 Jan 2013 #222

so you've already decided sigmasix Jan 2013 #287

really? rationalist? like that is not fuckin' in our face obvious? geeez. fail. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #226

We are talking specifically about a women's movement gollygee Jan 2013 #256

My women's studies professor says there are different types of feminism, ZombieHorde Jan 2013 #227

It depends on if your professor is male or female NoOneMan Jan 2013 #228

She is a woman. nt ZombieHorde Jan 2013 #230

Otherwise your professor would be dictating to women what they must think NoOneMan Jan 2013 #231

OK. I'm a guy, but I have to write papers on feminism some semesters, ZombieHorde Jan 2013 #232

yes i think feminisms could be accurate and not. seabeyond Jan 2013 #235

I'd be honored to be called a feminist ally. JustJoe Jan 2013 #233

that was awesomely insightful, and seabeyond Jan 2013 #234

Yep. redqueen Jan 2013 #237

Being an ally is an awesome thing. MuseRider Jan 2013 #247

Message deleted by the DU Administrators TheRedJackal Jan 2013 #272

Well that's up to you... Deep13 Jan 2013 #276

good for you. then, being the feminist you will have also understand that there are MANY different seabeyond Jan 2013 #282

thanks, and yes, one can't essentialize a large and diverse group of humans. nt Deep13 Jan 2013 #283