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GRhodes

(162 posts)
28. ...
Tue May 31, 2016, 10:59 AM
May 2016

First off, structural change doesn't happen overnight. So, it makes no sense what so ever to think that it would come about immediately. It wouldn't, and it wouldn't unless there was an outright revolution, which isn't going to happen. Sanders has said it wouldn't happen overnight and he couldn't do it alone, and he's right. He doesn't believe that, and neither do most of his supporters. I challenge you to name a single movement of historic importance, one, that lacked a long term version that wasn't "realistic" in the short term. Did the Civil Rights movement have a vision that was "realistic" in the way you seem to want to argue? Of course not. The labor movement? Did they push for things that they thought would immediately happen? Of course not. They had long term visions, and those visions were used to organize people and to force those in power to implement structural change. That's how it has always happened, without exception. You all have created a straw man argument that Sanders and most of his supporters don't believe in.

On the other hand, there is no way to ever get things like universal health care or college unless you state the vision and give people the chance to organize around that vision. No one said he was a freaking messiah either. He is just the only one addressing those issues and the only one running with a coherent vision that the country actually wants (take a look at the polls on the issues and how he polls nationally). There is a huge, proven, gap between popular opinion and government policy, more than anything because of corruption, which Clinton is guilty of. God forbid anyone want to come along and change that.

I also find it curious that people like yourself call his push for a strong environmental policy, like a carbon tax, to be unrealistic. I have news for you, we don't have tons of time and there is no realistic way to avoid ecological collapse with moderate solutions. Sanders' call for a carbon tax is called radical, which just shows how far right wing the conversation has gone. In fact, it isn't nearly enough. I would guess that you're older, so you aren't going to have to deal with that. Your kids and grandchildren will though, and you should think long and hard about what is coming for them environmentally, what environment your generation is passing and has passed on to the next. There is no way to avoid ecological collapse without structural change, period, and we don't have much time. Some scientists in fact think it's too late.

"Also, your post is just character attacks on Hillary Clinton."

Name a single thing I pointed that isn't factual. Her being corrupt isn't a character attack, it's factual. If you think a person being corrupt says something about their character, then you should analyze her character, because she IS corrupt, and there is no arguing against that, unless you want to change the definition of corruption. She is also hawkish, this is common knowledge, and does have a center-right economic record.

I also think your argument about Clinton getting things done is comical, at best. You seem to think that Hillary Clinton, Hillary freaking Clinton, is going to work with the Republicans and "get things done". They froth at the mouth when they say her name. Even if the Republicans in power think she's okay, it doesn't matter, since their base hates her to their core and those Republicans won't get re-elected if they do what she wants. They do, whether or not that is rational. You might have a case with another center-right Democrat, but not her. She is no more likely to do anything she wants to than Sanders would be. The truth is that the right has to be fought, battled and beaten back, the "center" has to be dragged back to the left, where popular opinion is. Thinking it would come from someone that has gotten massively rich off of corporations and gotten so much from Wall Street is naive, the ponies and rainbows thing the Clinton folks have been talking about.

I'd like to hear what you think is going to happen though if she's elected. She's a "centrist" (of what exactly?) and is negotiating with the right wing. A negotiation always results in a position between two negotiating parties. So, if she negotiates with the right and is already in the center, where would the compromise be? Be honest, she'll "get things done" if/when she sells the store to corporate interests, just as her husband and Obama largely did. Our political system is well to the right of where it was decades ago, and the Democrats like Clinton haven proven that they don't have it in them to drag it back to the left.

I hope someone will do an investigative piece (book) on why a democratic socialist who underthematrix May 2016 #1
Um GRhodes May 2016 #5
What is sad is people like the OP TimPlo May 2016 #9
Thank you! Very well said! Rhiannon12866 May 2016 #18
Yep GRhodes Jun 2016 #40
When is the far left going to prove they can win some g.. damn elections.? BootinUp Jun 2016 #56
I don't have a problem with socialism or Bernie being a Democratic socialist. underthematrix May 2016 #38
He has absolutely ZERO chance of winning the nomination LoverOfLiberty Jun 2016 #47
LOL! GRhodes Jun 2016 #50
Acually, Bernie and his campaign were out of their league and have only themselves to blame brush Jun 2016 #54
What a crappy, poorly thought out argument GRhodes Jun 2016 #58
He shouldn't have went negative. brush Jun 2016 #59
Nonsense GRhodes Jun 2016 #61
Politicians by their very natures have well-developed egos, some more than others. Sanders anotherproletariat May 2016 #8
what the fuck are you talking about. Loyal to who? By speaking his principles, he's JCanete May 2016 #24
+100000 times flor-de-jasmim May 2016 #26
actually Bernie is just another corporate stooge. He's trying to win underthematrix Jun 2016 #42
Do you know what a corporate stooge is? Name some corporations who's bidding he's actually doing. JCanete Jun 2016 #44
And as a cynical politician, (your word not mine), he was quite content to sit in Congress politicaljunkie41910 Jun 2016 #45
He has used party resources that I, as a Democrat, want him to use. He's not threatening to burn JCanete Jun 2016 #48
So he can take support from groups he calls corrupt bettyellen Jun 2016 #57
no one else can what? Is somebody else getting lambasted for that? JCanete Jun 2016 #60
Everyone knows that the US has a two-party system, for better or for worse gollygee May 2016 #27
Everyone knows GRhodes May 2016 #30
I'm talking only about how things have worke in this election right now and why it makes sense that gollygee May 2016 #32
underthematrix—Start by reading about the Democrats like Frankin Roosevelt. CobaltBlue Jun 2016 #41
It was a political calculation. He needed the Dem brand for national name recogition . . . brush Jun 2016 #53
Did nobody notice? lmbradford May 2016 #2
+1. VulgarPoet May 2016 #20
Yuuge +1. yourout Jun 2016 #52
That was total garbage. You should delete it RobertEarl May 2016 #3
Well GRhodes May 2016 #4
Bernie Setting Himself Up As A Messiah Will Cause Folks To Tune Out TomCADem May 2016 #11
... GRhodes May 2016 #28
Excellent post!!! eom asuhornets May 2016 #33
And again you disparage the Left and why? What does the left want that rhett o rick May 2016 #6
Your Post Is Ted Cruz Like - If You Do Not Swear Fealty to Bernie... TomCADem May 2016 #12
... GRhodes May 2016 #29
Apparently you guys don't pay attention. We've never claimed Sen Sanders is the "end all". I rhett o rick May 2016 #35
Thanks for proving the articles point, Rick. zappaman May 2016 #21
OK, if Hillary drops the notion that everyone who disagrees with her Doctor_J May 2016 #7
So, Bernie's Campaign Endorses Trump's "Woman Card" Attacks? TomCADem May 2016 #13
... VulgarPoet May 2016 #37
YEAH! Money, power and lobbyists don't corrupt anyone. That the rich get richer merrily May 2016 #10
You know, i dont think they see... lmbradford May 2016 #14
Who is it that you think are not seeing that people suffer? merrily May 2016 #15
The only thing that Sanders "must" do is see this through to the end, in July, at the Con. mikehiggins May 2016 #16
Follow the money. JRLeft May 2016 #17
Being the only honest, un-bought (by corprats/Wall St) candidate, he's probably right. n/t Triana May 2016 #19
Poppet: Amanda Marcotte must drop using inane planted axioms. Lizzie Poppet May 2016 #22
Oh. My. God. Dem2 May 2016 #23
that's some serious made-up bullshit about Bernie. Oh its Amanda Marcotte...no wonder. aikoaiko May 2016 #25
Right...the hair on fire, Joan of Arc, rigged election, narrative is getting very very old. Sheepshank May 2016 #31
Disagrees with him on what? That private money corrupts politics and politicians? Orsino May 2016 #34
Many of them are, unfortunately. $1MILLION to spread manure nc4bo May 2016 #36
recommended! Bill USA May 2016 #39
Pisspoor strawman AgingAmerican Jun 2016 #43
It may be true that not everyone against him is a corrupt dupe. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2016 #46
What increasing personal attacks on Hillary are they talking about? aikoaiko Jun 2016 #49
messiah complex now with sanders. believing his own delusions??? beachbum bob Jun 2016 #51
Sanders is an ideologue workinclasszero Jun 2016 #55
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