Religion

On the Road

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180. We Don't Know of Paul Being Thrown Out of the Temple Itself

Sun Mar 29, 2015, 12:42 PM

Mar 2015

although he was arrested there later in his life. The ejection was from synagogues in other cities, largely in Syria and Turkey. From 2 Corintians 11:

5 I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles....
--snip with too much context for thread
24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones....
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+11&version=NIV

The 'super-apostle' reference indicates that his enemy was also considered a follower of Jesus. This strongly suggests James, since he is depicted (eg, Acts 15) as having some kind of presiding authority over the movement and (Galatians 1) sent representatives to ensure that Jews (including Paul and Peter) were following the ritual law.

There are a lot veiled references to the Paul-James dispute in the NT. For example: "One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables." (Rom 14:2). This is very likely a swipe by Paul at James, who later Church fathers describe as having been a vegetarian. The letter of James says "Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren?" This is pretty clearly a reference to Paul's doctrine of salvation by faith alone. (Note: James is often considered pseudonymous, but given the context and timeline it seems unlikely to me.)

Paul pretty much ignored the historical Jesus and preferred to speak about Jesus as a heavenly figure. This is due to Paul's gnosticism or gnostic tendencies, but also probably to the inconvenience of Jesus' actual relatives being his enemies.

"I am not lying" appears four times in the epistles, making it appear to be a general defense against being repeatedly called a liar. It is hard to see Paul defending Jesus' physical existence to the Galatians, since the context is a dispute with Jesus' physical brother.

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Whether Jesus existed historically [View all] treestar Mar 2015 OP

I can't prove Jesus existed but I believe he was man and is God. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #1

Well ok that's a position one could have too treestar Mar 2015 #2

Indeed. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #3

Same here. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #6

. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #7

You too my friend. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #8

I do too. I believe it all quite frankly. yeoman6987 Mar 2015 #52

Have a great Holy Week! hrmjustin Mar 2015 #54

You too! Actually can't believe it is here already! yeoman6987 Mar 2015 #67

Always an emotional time. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #69

God blesses sinners, and those who curse you Brettongarcia Apr 2015 #221

Indeed! hrmjustin Apr 2015 #222

cf. Luke 6.28 etc. Brettongarcia Apr 2015 #223

Pray for those who curse you. hrmjustin Apr 2015 #224

Oddly Brettongarcia Apr 2015 #237

If he's not a god, he's not the same guy. immoderate Mar 2015 #4

Disagree, he could have existed but not be a god treestar Mar 2015 #5

So there was some guy named Jesus who SAID he was a god... immoderate Mar 2015 #9

Well his name was edhopper Mar 2015 #11

people of that day and in fact many centuries later treestar Mar 2015 #14

Not sure what you meen by pangaia Mar 2015 #176

Actually, everything written about Jesus comes from the Apostles written after his death, still_one Mar 2015 #26

As far as I know nothing in the bible pangaia Mar 2015 #177

I am not even Christian, but wasn't the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, etc. authored by those folks? still_one Mar 2015 #178

No they were not. pangaia Mar 2015 #182

Then that makes them even more subject to error, an is more than just second hand information still_one Mar 2015 #183

Actually, okasha Mar 2015 #189

is that one too many Ms edhopper Mar 2015 #190

It was indeed. okasha Mar 2015 #193

I thought you might have found edhopper Mar 2015 #194

Uh huh. pangaia Mar 2015 #192

Yes, books. Those things you read. okasha Mar 2015 #195

Where do you get the idea that he said he was a god? Starboard Tack Mar 2015 #158

You mean he was the same as everybody else who could walk on water? immoderate Mar 2015 #166

What makes you think that he or anyone can or could walk on water? Starboard Tack Mar 2015 #174

I think you underestimate edhopper Mar 2015 #184

Not really. I know many take the miracles literally Starboard Tack Mar 2015 #185

okay edhopper Mar 2015 #187

We really can't be sure of anything edhopper Mar 2015 #167

Exactly! Starboard Tack Mar 2015 #175

Hmmmm...not sure I agree with that. stone space Mar 2015 #15

Or it could be an example of EUHEMERISM. immoderate Mar 2015 #42

Ah, so now you say he was not a god, but the son of God Starboard Tack Mar 2015 #163

In the three synoptic gospels, okasha Mar 2015 #188

I think that in all four gospels, Jesus calls himself "son of man" struggle4progress Mar 2015 #217

I think Matthew 16 verses 15 thru 20 Leontius Mar 2015 #219

Various appellations occur: "son of man," "son of David," "son of God." But in the gospels struggle4progress Apr 2015 #225

Why would you say that? notadmblnd Mar 2015 #30

Calling himself a Christian edhopper Mar 2015 #34

Indeed. notadmblnd Mar 2015 #40

It would be on a par with God saying he was religious Starboard Tack Mar 2015 #164

God isn't religious edhopper Mar 2015 #165

This reminds me of the barber... stone space Mar 2015 #171

If "Christian" means follower of Christ, I doubt that he'd call himself that. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #100

I don't think there is any edhopper Mar 2015 #10

Yeah, someone could have been executed treestar Mar 2015 #12

The portrayal in popular culture edhopper Mar 2015 #16

Which makes it interesting how the story caught on treestar Mar 2015 #17

I think he caught on edhopper Mar 2015 #18

Who was Helen and what did she do? treestar Mar 2015 #19

Helen was Constantine's mother edhopper Mar 2015 #21

Constantine did not make Christianity the religion of the Empire. Leontius Mar 2015 #169

I said I was being very simplistic edhopper Mar 2015 #173

3 different churches each have three different sites. Viva_Daddy Apr 2015 #229

She discovered the one true cross. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #37

Helen was one of the biggest Rubes of all time edhopper Mar 2015 #38

Do you suppose those folks lived long enough to think, LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #44

No edhopper Mar 2015 #46

I don't think people were that cynical then treestar Mar 2015 #58

I think edhopper Mar 2015 #62

Maybe, but they didn't have the wherewithal treestar Mar 2015 #66

The places Helen deemed edhopper Mar 2015 #70

Either a man was raised from the dead or not. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #105

No, people are not that black and white treestar Mar 2015 #129

I think Jesus was just a good Essene and philosopher. leftofcool Mar 2015 #13

I don't take a position on whether there was a man behind the myth. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #20

The fact that edhopper Mar 2015 #22

I understand your point. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #23

If there was a movement edhopper Mar 2015 #24

Early Jewish christians were not part of the actual Jewish revolt against rome Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #25

Do you think the myth was spun from whole cloth, then? LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #41

You made a specific claim of a "revolutionary grassroots" ideology. Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #95

You're entirely right that it's not a claim a can justify. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #98

Most of the christians here claim that they do not take the bible literally. Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #106

Mmm. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #108

I note that there is nothing supernatural about crucifixion. Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #115

True about the absence of the supernatural. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #117

I Think There are More On the Road Mar 2015 #181

I think edhopper Mar 2015 #111

except when pressed on some of the idiotic details Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #127

I know a couple you can ask upthread. edhopper Mar 2015 #130

It's a myth copied phil89 Apr 2015 #251

Medieval peasants likely believed it all treestar Mar 2015 #51

The linkage of capitalist and protestant ideologies is well established. Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #97

To justify, accommodate and encourage enormous disparities. n/t haikugal Mar 2015 #168

If you are a christian believer, you see it one way. cbayer Mar 2015 #27

I haven't seen a debate here, just sharing of diverse opinions. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #29

You haven't looked hard enough edhopper Mar 2015 #31

And this may turn into yet another. cbayer Mar 2015 #35

I find questions about history interesting edhopper Mar 2015 #36

You and many others, cbayer Mar 2015 #39

If it was told by edhopper Mar 2015 #45

Tell him that. cbayer Mar 2015 #47

Yes edhopper Mar 2015 #48

This particular tour guide did not characterize the war as a noble cause cbayer Mar 2015 #53

No, not an assumption edhopper Mar 2015 #60

Where did you grow up? cbayer Mar 2015 #61

Florida edhopper Mar 2015 #63

Ahhh, I get it. cbayer Mar 2015 #68

I was told in 8th grade history edhopper Mar 2015 #73

I totally believe you. cbayer Mar 2015 #77

Well yes edhopper Mar 2015 #81

(aside) My early schooling was in TX. We had Texas history before we had US history classes. pinto Mar 2015 #50

Exactly the opposite of mine and probably equally head spinning. cbayer Mar 2015 #56

Ah Texas edhopper Mar 2015 #57

The Alamo (1836) was before the Civil War. It was part of what's seen in TX as the Texas Revolution. pinto Mar 2015 #84

I was being a little flip edhopper Mar 2015 #89

Eh, you're fine with me. There were lots of opportunists in the mix. pinto Mar 2015 #99

Yeah edhopper Mar 2015 #107

Can you give us a synopsis of the differences between the two accounts? LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #64

I do give some information down thread, but I'm not going to write cbayer Mar 2015 #71

How rarely our accounts of war illustrate the devastation left behind, ever. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #75

Absolutely agree. cbayer Mar 2015 #78

I get a chuckle edhopper Mar 2015 #76

Their distrust of northerners continues. cbayer Mar 2015 #80

I sometimes edhopper Mar 2015 #82

I have a deep love for the south and would never take that position. cbayer Mar 2015 #118

You would visit it edhopper Mar 2015 #123

Lol, that's true, but I tell you what really rankles me about talk of cbayer Mar 2015 #125

My mother had to have her mother-in-law rent a house for the family. My father was stationed in OR pinto Mar 2015 #112

That's exactly how it works. Lack of trust runs deep. cbayer Mar 2015 #119

I wasn't criticizing what was going on here, just putting in my 2 cents about the uselessness cbayer Mar 2015 #33

That's fine. I wasn't trying to pick a fight. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #43

Then why bother responding bvf Mar 2015 #83

I have to have a dog in the fight to express my opinion? cbayer Mar 2015 #88

I never said he never existed. bvf Mar 2015 #94

"Feel free to carry on with your misrepresentation of others' arguments.That seems to be your style" cbayer Mar 2015 #104

Noted. bvf Mar 2015 #110

It always matters treestar Mar 2015 #55

yes, I believe that religious zealots existed (as they do currently) who were/are not God. notadmblnd Mar 2015 #28

I think someone whom we have named Jesus, but whose real name was probably Cleita Mar 2015 #32

Interesting post. nt raccoon Apr 2015 #250

Sort of a moot point, imo. pinto Mar 2015 #49

Now, I'm going to have to take you to task, because this is a thorn in my side. cbayer Mar 2015 #65

Please find the humor intended here. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #72

It does indeed, but it's not what my friend pinto meant... cbayer Mar 2015 #74

LOL, I saw the discussion somewhere earlier. Now, pinto Mar 2015 #91

I move to table indefinitely. cbayer Mar 2015 #92

I'll second that emotion. pinto Mar 2015 #96

Who gives a shit what the rest of the world uses edhopper Mar 2015 #93

USA!!!! USA!!! USA!!!! cbayer Mar 2015 #101

FUCKEN A!!! edhopper Mar 2015 #103

Two questions that, for me, resolve the question in favor of Jesus's existence. Htom Sirveaux Mar 2015 #59

I am in the camp edhopper Mar 2015 #79

And I would agree with that gradual invention. Htom Sirveaux Mar 2015 #121

Thanks edhopper Mar 2015 #122

Your point #1? IphengeniaBlumgarten Mar 2015 #85

We don't have contemporary records for many ancient figures Htom Sirveaux Mar 2015 #114

It's interesting to me that you find elements of the story convincing because they are in the story. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #87

You could if you wanted, but it wouldn't be convincing unless you had more Htom Sirveaux Mar 2015 #116

I concede that my summary declarations carry no more or no less weight than yours. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #120

Lots of people were baptized by John, not just Jesus. Htom Sirveaux Mar 2015 #124

As I have said elsewhere, there is beauty in it. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #126

The principle is this: awkward bits of text are more probative that non-awkward bits struggle4progress Mar 2015 #144

It's problematic for me to accept the Bible as evidence that the Bible is true. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #147

If you actually read what I wrote, you will see that I merely applied rather standard methods struggle4progress Mar 2015 #149

I did read it, and now again. Actually. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #150

Yes, another thought would be edhopper Mar 2015 #148

another thing to consider guillaumeb Mar 2015 #86

Your kidding right. edhopper Mar 2015 #90

no guillaumeb Mar 2015 #102

I was referring to your use of the Koran edhopper Mar 2015 #109

There is no argument that Christians existed. That's well documented. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #113

There are actually two references in Josephus. okasha Mar 2015 #157

And also strange that a man edhopper Mar 2015 #159

There's another way of looking at that. okasha Mar 2015 #161

There was already a Christian movement by that time edhopper Mar 2015 #162

Josephus is second hand testimony Yorktown Mar 2015 #196

This message was self-deleted by its author Yorktown Mar 2015 #197

Josephus was a historian. okasha Mar 2015 #199

Josephus did not quote his sources and waited 20 years to mention Jesus Yorktown Mar 2015 #201

Ancient historians did not name their sources okasha Mar 2015 #203

You made three mistakes here Yorktown Mar 2015 #205

Wrong. Those three mistakes are yours. okasha Mar 2015 #206

No. You demonstrably committed 3 mistakes. Yorktown Mar 2015 #208

Josephus is evidence edhopper Mar 2015 #210

I would add that it further demonstrates okasha Mar 2015 #211

Yes. But Josephus is one evidence religions tamper with truth. Yorktown Mar 2015 #212

Yes edhopper Mar 2015 #213

Ranch dressing, please. okasha Apr 2015 #232

no and no Viva_Daddy Apr 2015 #230

I believe some of it. Promethean Mar 2015 #128

Or stories of several of these men edhopper Mar 2015 #131

Another likely hypothesis. Promethean Mar 2015 #134

I look at as edhopper Mar 2015 #137

I Believe the *Certainty* of Both Sides Comes from General Tribalism, On the Road Mar 2015 #132

Do you wonder why Paul added this? LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #133

I Have Never Heard That Construed in That Way On the Road Mar 2015 #151

And that's the first I've heard of that construction of Paul's ejection from the temple. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #152

We Don't Know of Paul Being Thrown Out of the Temple Itself On the Road Mar 2015 #180

See, all that background only helps to convince me that Paul was the original Christian conman. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #186

Sorry to Miss Your Meaning -- On the Road Mar 2015 #191

The beginning of Galatians okasha Mar 2015 #160

Paul is interesting edhopper Mar 2015 #135

Paul account of Jesus life was second hand. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #138

Well edhopper Mar 2015 #140

I can't say. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #141

I don't know about Paul edhopper Mar 2015 #146

pssssst... stone space Mar 2015 #153

I'll correct it edhopper Mar 2015 #154

taint no God... pretzel4gore Mar 2015 #136

Yeshua Ben Yosef edhopper Mar 2015 #139

Really? LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #142

heh heh edhopper Mar 2015 #145

That whole Alexandria thing? LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #143

Yeah those thieving Ptolemies have a lot to answer for. Leontius Mar 2015 #170

Honestly, if I could get my hands on them! LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #172

Wandering teacher-healers were part of the cultures in that region for centuries. Aunt Bold Ire8 Mar 2015 #155

Reza Aslan's book ''Zealot'' was helpful in seeing Jesus from a different perspective. YOHABLO Mar 2015 #156

From a textual level, Jesus seems to be a legendary figure, rather than a strict historical one... Humanist_Activist Mar 2015 #179

There probably was an Essenian Jew guru named Yeshua/Jesus Yorktown Mar 2015 #198

Good summary edhopper Mar 2015 #200

Thanks for the heads up Yorktown Mar 2015 #202

Jesus and his disciples are CHARACTERS in a DRAMATIC STORY... Viva_Daddy Apr 2015 #231

There must have been some elements of truth Yorktown Apr 2015 #236

It's rare to see a cult spring from nowhere, out of pure imagination. Warren Stupidity Apr 2015 #238

There were many 'cargo cults', all with a prophet or leader Yorktown Apr 2015 #239

however there was no historical "John Frum" Warren Stupidity Apr 2015 #241

True, the names Jesus or John Frum are not sure facts Yorktown Apr 2015 #249

It is questionable if edhopper Apr 2015 #246

I don't know but if he existed then he is dead and buried LostOne4Ever Mar 2015 #204

this brings up an interesting question DonCoquixote Mar 2015 #207

Or edhopper Mar 2015 #209

Good point, but DonCoquixote Mar 2015 #214

True edhopper Mar 2015 #216

There are records of convictions of Joseph Smith Yorktown Apr 2015 #240

Technology reduces the scope of religious fraud, but doesn't cancel out gullibility Yorktown Mar 2015 #215

I think it goes beyond gullibility. Act_of_Reparation Mar 2015 #218

My point was DonCoquixote Apr 2015 #247

There is no evidence the biblical character of Jesus of Nazareth ever existed. AtheistCrusader Apr 2015 #220

There is some evidence Major Nikon Apr 2015 #233

Maybe I wasn't clear but that's what I meant by specifying AtheistCrusader Apr 2015 #242

actually the Josephus references are considered more reliable by far than tacitus Warren Stupidity Apr 2015 #243

I'm not sure how Major Nikon Apr 2015 #244

I think edhopper Apr 2015 #245

Talk to an educated Jew sometimes. LongTomH Apr 2015 #226

Not in my Jewish upbringing DavidDvorkin Apr 2015 #228

Not all Jews respect(ed) Jesus Yorktown Apr 2015 #235

Which Jesus are you talking about? nichomachus Apr 2015 #227

Very true, the writers of the gospels injected different inputs Yorktown Apr 2015 #234

You're absolutely right...so show the evidence that he existed... brooklynite Apr 2015 #248