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FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
81. Christian theology was originally heavily influenced by Greco-Roman philosophy
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 01:42 PM
Mar 2012
The study of the first problem, viz. whether or not the accidents of bread and wine continue their existence without their proper substance, must be based upon the clearly established truth of Transubstantiation, in consequence of which the entire substance of the bread and the entire substance of the wine are converted respectively into the Body and Blood of Christ in such a way that "only the appearances of bread and wine remain" (Council of Trent, Sess. XIII, can. ii: manentibus dumtaxat speciebus panis et vini). Accordingly, the continuance of the appearances without the substance of bread and wine as their connatural substratum is just the reverse of Transubstantiation. If it be further asked, whether these appearances have any subject at all in which they inhere, we must answer with St. Thomas Aquinas (III: 77: 1), that the idea is to be rejected as unbecoming, as though the Body of Christ, in addition to its own accidents, should also assume those of bread and wine. The most that may be said is, that from the Eucharistic Body proceeds a miraculous sustaining power, which supports the appearances bereft of their natural substances and preserves them from collapse. The position of the Church in this regard may be readily determined from the Council of Constance (1414-1418).

...

As regards the philosophical possibility of the accidents existing without their substance, the older school drew a fine distinction between modal and absolute accidents, By the modal accidents were understood such as could not, being mere modes, be separated from their substance without involving a metaphysical contradiction, e.g. the form and motion of a body. Those accidents were designated absolute, whose objective reality was adequately distinct from the reality of their substance, in such a way that no intrinsic repugnance was involved in their separability, as, e.g., the quantity of a body. Aristotle, himself taught (Metaphys., VI, 3rd ed. of Bekker, p. 1029, a. 13), that quantity was not a corporeal substance, but only a phenomenon of substance. Modern philosophy, on the other hand, has endeavored since the time of John Locke, to reject altogether from the realm of ideas the concept of substance as something imaginary, and to rest satisfied with qualities alone as the excitants of sensation, a view of the material world which the so-called psychology of association and actuality is trying to carry out in its various details. The Catholic Church does not feel called upon to follow up the ephemeral vagaries of these new philosophical systems, but bases her doctrine on the everlasting philosophy of sound reason, which rightly distinguishes between the thing in itself and its characteristic qualities (color, form, size, etc.). Though the "thing in itself" may even remain imperceptible to the senses and therefore be designated in the language of Kant as a noumenon, or in the language of Spencer, the Unknowable, yet we cannot escape the necessity of seeking beneath the appearances the thing which appears, beneath the colour that which is colored beneath the form that which has form, i.e. the substratum or subject which sustains the phenomena. The older philosophy designated the appearances by the name of accidents, the subject of the appearances, by that of substance. It matters little what the terms are, provided the things signified by them are rightly understood. What is particularly important regarding material substances and their accidental qualities, is the necessity of proceeding cautiously in this discussion, since in the domain of natural philosophy the greatest uncertainty reigns even at the present day concerning the nature of matter, one system pulling down what another has reared, as is proved in the latest theories of atomism and energy, of ions and electrons.

The old theology tried with St. Thomas Aquinas (III: 77) to prove the possibility of absolute accidents on the principles of the Aristotelean-Scholastic hylomorphism, i.e. the system which teaches that the essential constitution of bodies consists in the substantial union of materia prima and forma substantialis. Some theologians of today would seek to come to an understanding with modern science, which bases all natural processes upon the very fruitful theory of energy, by trying with Leibniz to explain the Eucharistic accidentia sine subjecto according to the dynamism of natural philosophy. Assuming, according to this system, a real distinction between force and its manifestations, between energy and its effects, it may be seen that under the influence of the First Cause the energy (substance) necessary for the essence of bread is withdrawn by virtue of conversion, while the effects of energy (accidents) in a miraculous manner continue. For the rest it may be said, that it is far from the Church's intention to restrict the Catholic's investigation regarding the doctrine of the Blessed Sacrament to any particular view of natural philosophy or even to require him to establish its truth on the principles of medieval physics; all that the Church demands is, that those theories of material substances be rejected which not only contradict the teaching of the Church, but also are repugnant to experience and sound reason, as Pantheism, Hylozoism, Monism, Absolute Idealism, Cartesianism, etc.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm#section3

Sounds like philosophy to me.
A good many Protestants also think the Catholic view of the Eucharist is absurd bluestateguy Mar 2012 #1
And for centuries many millions have not. rug Mar 2012 #4
Actually, your title is exactly the point skepticscott Mar 2012 #19
By all means, recruit more asses. rug Mar 2012 #20
You're free to call rational people anything you need to skepticscott Mar 2012 #36
The term was yours. I do not disagree. rug Mar 2012 #41
Refer to your posts 6 and 12 skepticscott Mar 2012 #68
That refers to Dawkins, who is indeed an ass. rug Mar 2012 #70
Exactly..it was the term YOU used to refer to Dawkins skepticscott Mar 2012 #107
It should be simple to subject the bread and wine to chemical analysis FarCenter Mar 2012 #38
It would be if it was a chemistry experiment. rug Mar 2012 #42
Not necessarily, you could use a microscope to look for blood cells. FarCenter Mar 2012 #49
You must have skipped Philosophy classes. rug Mar 2012 #56
Skipped? Or just doesn't subscribe to bullshit? cleanhippie Mar 2012 #60
Skipped. rug Mar 2012 #72
He was probably in Science class instead. cleanhippie Mar 2012 #74
Maybe. Some people can only handle one thing at a time. rug Mar 2012 #76
A Theory of Substances made sense in a Greek context FarCenter Mar 2012 #61
Your post has much substance. rug Mar 2012 #73
'arton epiousion' tama Mar 2012 #117
And wtf does philosophy have to do with it? skepticscott Mar 2012 #71
If you could have answered that question you would have avoided the drivel that follows it. rug Mar 2012 #77
Christian theology was originally heavily influenced by Greco-Roman philosophy FarCenter Mar 2012 #81
Wow, a whole page of philosobabble skepticscott Mar 2012 #108
That is only a three paragraph excerpt of a much longer non-explanation n/t FarCenter Mar 2012 #112
Claims about tama Mar 2012 #116
Got a third choice? skepticscott Mar 2012 #136
First, tama Mar 2012 #137
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Joseph8th Mar 2012 #139
Go tama Mar 2012 #144
Working on a hospital psych ward skepticscott Mar 2012 #149
The Eucharist was originally... Joseph8th Mar 2012 #138
Unfortunate. Glad to see that the speaker who said "Stand your ground" got no applause. cbayer Mar 2012 #2
I'm a spiritual person. I can't say I hold to 1 belief only. However... Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2012 #3
Protestants believe that Catholic Eucharist is literally evil cannibalism. provis99 Mar 2012 #5
That's incorrect. rug Mar 2012 #6
Sheesh, rug longship Mar 2012 #7
This is why he's an ass. rug Mar 2012 #12
I very respectfully disagree longship Mar 2012 #24
That might work if religious believers are in fact in thrall and enchanted. rug Mar 2012 #27
We're together on that longship Mar 2012 #29
This Sunday school teacher likes the cut of your jib, longship villager Mar 2012 #33
Gees. Thank you very much longship Mar 2012 #34
Agreed.... We need both ... Joseph8th Mar 2012 #140
Aikido of politics tama Mar 2012 #39
Don't assume Dawkins' agenda is only political longship Mar 2012 #47
My problem tama Mar 2012 #88
Well that would be a sweeping generalization longship Mar 2012 #91
I was not tama Mar 2012 #97
Please define pseudo skeptical org longship Mar 2012 #109
Truzzi tama Mar 2012 #113
Hmph! longship Mar 2012 #115
When someone proclaims that people should show contempt and ridicule, that humblebum Mar 2012 #48
Calling somebody an ass is an ad hominem longship Mar 2012 #53
You are correct tama Mar 2012 #118
Okay, you don't like him longship Mar 2012 #121
He's pouring gas on the flames tama Mar 2012 #122
Inquisitor? longship Mar 2012 #124
I'm enjoying tama Mar 2012 #125
It doesn't matter who advocates such a position, advocating such a position is humblebum Mar 2012 #126
Well you know that old Whore of Babylon stuff just keeps on rolling for some. Leontius Mar 2012 #13
Quite an accusation. Thats my opinion Mar 2012 #85
here's plenty, from DUers, Protestants, non-Protestants, and ex-Protestants: provis99 Mar 2012 #96
I have looked at your list. Thats my opinion Mar 2012 #120
obviously, no amound of evidence or facts will satisfy you. provis99 Mar 2012 #133
People make fun of other's fantasies all the time, indeed, those who take such fantasies... Humanist_Activist Mar 2012 #8
Who makes fun of other people's fantasies? And what kind of people are these? cbayer Mar 2012 #10
Debunkers of conspiracy theories, Mythbusters did a rather good episode... Humanist_Activist Mar 2012 #15
Debunking something or not agreeing with it is not the same thing as making cbayer Mar 2012 #17
Not agreeing with it implies its on equal footing with the facts or is equally logical... Humanist_Activist Mar 2012 #21
So does the fact that you called a group of creationists skepticscott Mar 2012 #35
They're usually in the corner popping each other's pimples. rug Mar 2012 #14
Didn't somebody say the purpose of the rally wasn't to ridicule religion or promote Leontius Mar 2012 #9
define anti-religious bigotry please. n/t Humanist_Activist Mar 2012 #16
The organizers apparently said that. The limited information in the article indicates that cbayer Mar 2012 #18
Why is the humorlessness of atheists so close to the humorlessness of fundamentalists? villager Mar 2012 #11
We aren't humourless - mr blur Mar 2012 #22
Not gauged by this post. rug Mar 2012 #28
So then, the fact that some of us find much atheist and skeptical "reasoning" to be humblebum Mar 2012 #50
It is OK to ridicule it and show contempt for it, as for any ideas or beliefs LeftishBrit Mar 2012 #55
I think that any group that exhorts open ridicule and contempt is humblebum Mar 2012 #63
Then you are pro-censorship. LeftishBrit Mar 2012 #67
Non-sequitur tama Mar 2012 #119
Atheists make fun of beliefs, and we are called humorless, the religious attack people... Humanist_Activist Mar 2012 #23
Making fun doesn't mean you know how to tell a joke. kwassa Mar 2012 #25
That's true, but Carlin was hilarious! Especially when he made fun of religious beliefs. n/t Humanist_Activist Mar 2012 #26
But he honed his humor and timing growing up on the West Side in Corpus Christi parish. rug Mar 2012 #30
Carlin was funny about many different subjects. kwassa Mar 2012 #31
Of ALL atheists???? LeftishBrit Mar 2012 #46
It is easy to show contempt for fundamentalists. Dawson Leery Mar 2012 #32
Suppose that a lot of people in this country skepticscott Mar 2012 #37
An awe inspiring show of tolerance from the leaders of atheism. LARED Mar 2012 #40
It was I'm afraid - there was no call at all for intolerance dmallind Mar 2012 #44
Advocating ridicule and contempt SCREAMS intolerance. nt humblebum Mar 2012 #52
Advocating ridicule and contempt is in the middle range of intolerance LeftishBrit Mar 2012 #57
lol, not exactly. eqfan592 Mar 2012 #59
You would have a point if anyone called for ridicule and contempt of PEOPLE... cleanhippie Mar 2012 #62
Nice rationalization, unfortunately reality doesn't work that way. humblebum Mar 2012 #65
There IS a difference between ridiculing a belief and a person. cleanhippie Mar 2012 #66
The thing is, however, that you do not just criticize atheism as a belief LeftishBrit Mar 2012 #69
I would challenge you to backup your statement about hatred, and humblebum Mar 2012 #75
OK -since you asked me to back it up - here's the quote I mean LeftishBrit Mar 2012 #78
Is his statement any worse than continually linking and comparing Leontius Mar 2012 #80
No, but I don't think this this happens very often. LeftishBrit Mar 2012 #87
I was not implying that you do. As for it not happening very often Leontius Mar 2012 #93
OK...but one point... LeftishBrit Mar 2012 #104
We essentially agree with each other but I would like to point out that historical distortions Leontius Mar 2012 #106
It varied muriel_volestrangler Mar 2012 #111
By their actions tama Mar 2012 #123
Yeah, because the oppression of women, gays, atheists by today's believers cleanhippie Mar 2012 #110
Where did I ever indicate that "advocating repression, torture and mass murder" was a humblebum Mar 2012 #92
The ONLY reason why Soviet atheist movements were evil... LeftishBrit Mar 2012 #103
It steps on the wrong side tama Mar 2012 #114
There you go again, defining words to suit your agenda LARED Mar 2012 #105
How do you rationalize this statement? LARED Mar 2012 #100
Intolerance of intolerance is not intolerance. nt Joseph8th Mar 2012 #141
Reason did prevail, despite the lying sack of shit reporter dmallind Mar 2012 #43
Dawkins' words are quoted in the article. rug Mar 2012 #45
If by "quoted" you mean "quote mined", maybe Rob H. Mar 2012 #51
Sounds like he was quoted accurately. rug Mar 2012 #54
It's tied directly to this: Rob H. Mar 2012 #58
Well said. (Nt) eqfan592 Mar 2012 #64
The "need to be ridiculed with contempt" has scant basis in reason. rug Mar 2012 #83
And transubstantiation has NO basis in reason Rob H. Mar 2012 #98
The belief is based on faith, the explanation on reason. rug Mar 2012 #99
When the explanation is "Just because" its not based on logic or empiricism. n/t Humanist_Activist Mar 2012 #130
I see you're unfamiliar with the concept of datum, rug Mar 2012 #134
Quote mining is bearing false witness, how does your god feel about that? n/t Humanist_Activist Mar 2012 #79
Hard to say since you're assuming a fact not in evidence. rug Mar 2012 #84
This coming from someone who believes in Transubstantiation, sorry, I don't think you have any... Humanist_Activist Mar 2012 #90
If your posts are any indication, I think I know what you have a grasp of. rug Mar 2012 #94
"...you're assuming a fact not in evidence." Rob H. Mar 2012 #101
Why don't you watch it and hear for yourself? mr blur Mar 2012 #82
I watched it on the live stream I posted yesterday. rug Mar 2012 #86
The truth that they won't, can't, admit is that using mockery and ridicule is much like Leontius Mar 2012 #89
Since no answer is forthcoming, you may be right. rug Mar 2012 #95
I've never participated tama Mar 2012 #102
Thank you for your answer. mr blur Mar 2012 #150
sounds too strong for dawkins deacon_sephiroth Mar 2012 #127
Hate speech. nt humblebum Mar 2012 #128
really? REALLY? deacon_sephiroth Mar 2012 #129
So then, I guess displaying "ridicule, hatred, and contempt" for atheism is humblebum Mar 2012 #131
if you can do it without the tinfoil hat... deacon_sephiroth Mar 2012 #132
1st of all about "you'd have to find a major flaw in the rejection itself." humblebum Mar 2012 #135
actually, I know EXACTLY what I reject, regardless of what others are convinced of. deacon_sephiroth Mar 2012 #148
Ohhh... we're plenty used to it. Joseph8th Mar 2012 #143
Straw man. nt humblebum Mar 2012 #146
Yes "ridicule and show contempt" for superstitions ... Joseph8th Mar 2012 #142
Definitely laughable. nt humblebum Mar 2012 #145
Sexist stereotypes aside, what do you mean by "make him feel his ignorance"? cbayer Mar 2012 #147
Dawkins is right. Superstitious BS should be mocked. Odin2005 Mar 2012 #151
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