Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
Gun Control & RKBA
Showing Original Post only (View all)Pistol grips on long guns, and rifle crime in general. [View all]
I ran across a discussion in another thread regarding pistol grip stocks on rifles, and rather than further hijack that thread, I decided to start a new thread on pistol grips, and rifle crime in general. It's a topic that comes up from time to time, but I think it's worth revisiting.
The initial statement that piqued my interest was this:
What do you need a pistol grip for? Again, no real purpose but killing a lot of people real fast.
From a design standpoint, separating the handgrip from the shoulder stock allows the receiver of a firearm to sit well back over the hand, allowing a better weight distribution and (in some designs) a longer barrel (or longer receiver) for the same overall length. This was probably the main reason pistol grip designs were first introduced. However, their ergonomic advantages are what made them dominant in the civilian realm, first in high-end target rifles and then mainstream civilian guns.
However, as it turns out, vertical handgrips on long guns also put the wrist at the ideal angle when firing from the shoulder, allowing a more secure grip and a better trigger pull, and making it unnecessary to stick your dominant elbow up and out like a chicken wing when shooting from the shoulder. That's why almost all very-high-end European target rifles used in unlimited-class target shooting have either pistol grip stocks, or thumbhole/extreme Monte Carlo stocks that approximate pistol grip angles.
For example, here's an Anschutz single-shot bolt-action target rifle:
and a thumbhole design (same principle, same grip angle):
Here's an Olympic biathlon rifle (also bolt-action); notice the grip angle:
Next time you see an Olympic biathlete "spray firing from the hip", let me know.
Finally, here's a civilian AR-15 at a range. Notice the natural wrist angle, and the perfect alignment of the barrel axis with the shoulder.
That's not an accident; that's good ergonomics, and it's why all kinds of new rifles designed in the last decade or two have imitated the AR's design.
FWIW, if that guy dropped his arm to hip level, but kept the natural wrist angle, the rifle would be pointed at the ground about 3 feet in front of his feet. That's another nice thing about pistol grip stocks; they make it easier to point a long gun safely down at the floor while keeping the gun close to your body for security, instead of encouraging a less-safe muzzle high hold like straight stocks do. You can do a low hold with a traditional straight stock, but it bends your right wrist like a chicken wing and weakens your grasp on the gun. A pistol grip also makes it somewhat harder for an attacker to snatch a long gun away from you if they get close (muzzle-down carry also helps with this), and makes it easier to "short-stock" the gun if needed.
(pistol grips) make firing from the hip after concealment much easier.
This line of thought surprised me a bit, as I believe it's the first time I've ever pistol grip stocks associated with concealability. Let me put that to rest by posting a pic of my first rifle (Ruger mini-14 Ranch Rifle, a little .223 caliber carbine) with the three stocks I owned for it:
It was by far the most concealable with the straight stock, due to how slim it was. Even with the bottom stock (folds for storage), it was harder to conceal than with the straight stock; the grip probably added six inches in height to the rifle. And while none of them could be readily concealed under a coat by anyone not named "Sasquatch", the straight-stocked rifle would be easiest because the stock and receiver would align with one's arm, rather than sticking out several inches off-axis.
Letting the AWB expire was stupid and politically motivated.
It was the rational thing to do. Rifles of any type are the least misused class of weapon in the United States, and pretty much always have been.
Table 20 - Murder by State and Type of Weapon 2010
Rifle homicide - FBI UCR
Criminal rifle possession - BATFE YCGIS
The 6-year trend in rifle homicides, 2005-2010, per the UCR:
2005: 442
2006: 436
2007: 450
2008: 375
2009: 348
2010: 358
By comparison, blades were used to murder 1,704 people in 2010, and bare hands/shoes/knees/elbows were used to murder 745. Rifles are simply not commonly used in either homicide or aggravated assault in this country, contrary to the hype.
Finally, a disclaimer.
As the old saying goes, it's like ham and eggs; if you're a chicken, you're concerned, but if you're a pig, you're involved. I'm very much involved in this one; it was the "assault weapon" fraud that got me interested in gun politics to start with. I'm now down to three rifles---one bona fide weapon of war, and two roughly comparable civilian carbines, my favorite being a Rock River Arms 16" middy (a self-loading centerfire .22 in the AR-15 mold) that serves as my competition gun, plinking gun, target gun, and HD long gun.
I'd like to keep that and the SAR-1, and pass them down to my kids someday. Of course, since the AR-15 platform has long since become the most popular civilian rifle in the United States, I think the chances of another AWB---especially one that actually banned anything---are pretty slim. But that's an important issue to me, which is why I still follow the discussion as much as I can even though I have a whole lot of other stuff going on these days.
InfoView thread info, including edit history
TrashPut this thread in your Trash Can (My DU » Trash Can)
BookmarkAdd this thread to your Bookmarks (My DU » Bookmarks)
248 replies, 160639 views
ShareGet links to this post and/or share on social media
AlertAlert this post for a rule violation
PowersThere are no powers you can use on this post
EditCannot edit other people's posts
ReplyReply to this post
EditCannot edit other people's posts
Rec (16)
ReplyReply to this post
248 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Pistol grips on any long gun are much more comfortable, especially for women.
Tuesday Afternoon
Jan 2012
#4
That's what I say when I'm too ashamed to say "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts"
Wistful Vista
Jan 2012
#135
Intentionally or unintentionally not showing the side with the stock folded against it?
rl6214
Jan 2012
#10
Yes. Underfolders are slow to deploy and a bit of a pain for that reason, though.
benEzra
Jan 2012
#23
It's understandable that one might get that impression from the "fear sells" media...
benEzra
Jan 2012
#22
'ze Germans' would be carrying automatics in this case. His guns are no match.
The Doctor.
Jan 2012
#89
Let me remind you what the gun control lobby *used* to say about Title 1 rifles like mine.
benEzra
Jan 2012
#136
death spewer toter -- I may have to make that my new sigline -- wonder how well that would go over
Tuesday Afternoon
Jan 2012
#152
"It can certainly be characterized as 'hysterical', though I'll leave out the gender aspect of it."
ellisonz
Jan 2012
#90
"It can certainly be characterized as 'hysterical', though I'll leave out the gender aspect of it."
ellisonz
Jan 2012
#109
Like I said, you were fishing for excuses to avoid a substantive challenge.
The Doctor.
Jan 2012
#110
When you call people and/or their tools "death-spewers", you are accusing them of homocidal intent
PavePusher
Jan 2012
#189
Debating you is like debating a dining room table, I have no further interest in doing it. n/t
ellisonz
Jan 2012
#215
Didn't I see something like that in a post that he was going to post it as his sig line
rl6214
Jan 2012
#185
Doncha know those against pistol grips don't care how uncomfortable it is to shoot without one
rl6214
Jan 2012
#8
I have no real problem with most people having a gun at home. But, not so much, in public.
Hoyt
Jan 2012
#161
If you can't define a problem then it indicates you don't understand the problem.
Atypical Liberal
Jan 2012
#62
I don't get it...why are you so opposed to people defending themselves against thugs?
Wistful Vista
Jan 2012
#140
I carried a shotgun around with a sawed off stock when someone was stalking and tried
Lint Head
Jan 2012
#11
I hear you on stalker. On pistol grip, it's kind of like some folks recommend maturbation
Hoyt
Jan 2012
#38
They're virtually the same in those circumstances, pistol grip or straight stock.
X_Digger
Jan 2012
#27
Well, I just took you at your word, it's my usual MO. I'm new here but not to the world.
Wistful Vista
Jan 2012
#145
"You also frequently seem to completely misunderstand what should have been crystal clear."
ellisonz
Jan 2012
#214
"Please tell me why someone should be allowed to own half-a-dozen handguns with little oversight."
friendly_iconoclast
Jan 2012
#239
Well I hope that one day soon these military grade weapons will be severely restricted...
ellisonz
Jan 2012
#85
All guns or their antecedents, save for a few target guns / bench competition guns..
X_Digger
Jan 2012
#99
Have you considered that there are other standards of lethality than ballistics? n/t
ellisonz
Jan 2012
#103
Which of course explains why they are used in less than 3% of all homicides committed with firearms.
AtheistCrusader
Jan 2012
#237
Except you are very insistently confusing NON-military-grade weapons with actual
benEzra
Jan 2012
#139
It appears that some people think abysmal ignorance of a subject is somehow a progressive value?
DonP
Jan 2012
#101
Well, if an armed citizen can't figure out and shoot the right person in a milling panicked, crowd..
krispos42
Jan 2012
#82
That is and he is. The Browning BAR was designed as a "keep their heads down"
oneshooter
Jan 2012
#120
If you really think you need a bayonet, you should talk to a medical professional IMlayO.
Hoyt
Jan 2012
#39
Why should he need a medical professional when you're right here on the scene?
Wistful Vista
Jan 2012
#142
I shot a muzzle loader for the first time last weeked (obviously, no pistol grip)...
OneTenthofOnePercent
Jan 2012
#113
Isn't it great seeing fun guns being accepted by common shooters across America.
ileus
Jan 2012
#244