Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Gun Control & RKBA

Showing Original Post only (View all)

benEzra

(12,148 posts)
Tue Jan 10, 2012, 11:03 PM Jan 2012

Pistol grips on long guns, and rifle crime in general. [View all]

I ran across a discussion in another thread regarding pistol grip stocks on rifles, and rather than further hijack that thread, I decided to start a new thread on pistol grips, and rifle crime in general. It's a topic that comes up from time to time, but I think it's worth revisiting.

The initial statement that piqued my interest was this:

What do you need a pistol grip for? Again, no real purpose but killing a lot of people real fast.

From a design standpoint, separating the handgrip from the shoulder stock allows the receiver of a firearm to sit well back over the hand, allowing a better weight distribution and (in some designs) a longer barrel (or longer receiver) for the same overall length. This was probably the main reason pistol grip designs were first introduced. However, their ergonomic advantages are what made them dominant in the civilian realm, first in high-end target rifles and then mainstream civilian guns.

However, as it turns out, vertical handgrips on long guns also put the wrist at the ideal angle when firing from the shoulder, allowing a more secure grip and a better trigger pull, and making it unnecessary to stick your dominant elbow up and out like a chicken wing when shooting from the shoulder. That's why almost all very-high-end European target rifles used in unlimited-class target shooting have either pistol grip stocks, or thumbhole/extreme Monte Carlo stocks that approximate pistol grip angles.

For example, here's an Anschutz single-shot bolt-action target rifle:



and a thumbhole design (same principle, same grip angle):



Here's an Olympic biathlon rifle (also bolt-action); notice the grip angle:



Next time you see an Olympic biathlete "spray firing from the hip", let me know.

Finally, here's a civilian AR-15 at a range. Notice the natural wrist angle, and the perfect alignment of the barrel axis with the shoulder.



That's not an accident; that's good ergonomics, and it's why all kinds of new rifles designed in the last decade or two have imitated the AR's design.

FWIW, if that guy dropped his arm to hip level, but kept the natural wrist angle, the rifle would be pointed at the ground about 3 feet in front of his feet. That's another nice thing about pistol grip stocks; they make it easier to point a long gun safely down at the floor while keeping the gun close to your body for security, instead of encouraging a less-safe muzzle high hold like straight stocks do. You can do a low hold with a traditional straight stock, but it bends your right wrist like a chicken wing and weakens your grasp on the gun. A pistol grip also makes it somewhat harder for an attacker to snatch a long gun away from you if they get close (muzzle-down carry also helps with this), and makes it easier to "short-stock" the gun if needed.

(pistol grips) make firing from the hip after concealment much easier.

This line of thought surprised me a bit, as I believe it's the first time I've ever pistol grip stocks associated with concealability. Let me put that to rest by posting a pic of my first rifle (Ruger mini-14 Ranch Rifle, a little .223 caliber carbine) with the three stocks I owned for it:



It was by far the most concealable with the straight stock, due to how slim it was. Even with the bottom stock (folds for storage), it was harder to conceal than with the straight stock; the grip probably added six inches in height to the rifle. And while none of them could be readily concealed under a coat by anyone not named "Sasquatch", the straight-stocked rifle would be easiest because the stock and receiver would align with one's arm, rather than sticking out several inches off-axis.

Letting the AWB expire was stupid and politically motivated.

It was the rational thing to do. Rifles of any type are the least misused class of weapon in the United States, and pretty much always have been.

Table 20 - Murder by State and Type of Weapon 2010

Rifle homicide - FBI UCR

Criminal rifle possession - BATFE YCGIS

The 6-year trend in rifle homicides, 2005-2010, per the UCR:

2005: 442
2006: 436
2007: 450
2008: 375
2009: 348
2010: 358

By comparison, blades were used to murder 1,704 people in 2010, and bare hands/shoes/knees/elbows were used to murder 745. Rifles are simply not commonly used in either homicide or aggravated assault in this country, contrary to the hype.

Finally, a disclaimer.



As the old saying goes, it's like ham and eggs; if you're a chicken, you're concerned, but if you're a pig, you're involved. I'm very much involved in this one; it was the "assault weapon" fraud that got me interested in gun politics to start with. I'm now down to three rifles---one bona fide weapon of war, and two roughly comparable civilian carbines, my favorite being a Rock River Arms 16" middy (a self-loading centerfire .22 in the AR-15 mold) that serves as my competition gun, plinking gun, target gun, and HD long gun.



I'd like to keep that and the SAR-1, and pass them down to my kids someday. Of course, since the AR-15 platform has long since become the most popular civilian rifle in the United States, I think the chances of another AWB---especially one that actually banned anything---are pretty slim. But that's an important issue to me, which is why I still follow the discussion as much as I can even though I have a whole lot of other stuff going on these days.
248 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Outstanding post, benEzra. Simo 1939_1940 Jan 2012 #1
Pistol grips on any long gun are much more comfortable. ileus Jan 2012 #2
Pistol grips on any long gun are much more comfortable, especially for women. Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #4
I guess some want to sit in a recliner and blast away. Hoyt Jan 2012 #3
Those are his concealed carry guns DonP Jan 2012 #5
Yeah, they can also be used as a crutch if he shoots his foot. Hoyt Jan 2012 #21
"Didn't read narrative......." Simo 1939_1940 Jan 2012 #12
Sorry, there is little in it I'm likely to agree with in this life. Hoyt Jan 2012 #19
Well, you might agree that pistol grips are common on European target guns... benEzra Jan 2012 #25
Ignorance, especially of the deliberate variety, The Doctor. Jan 2012 #81
More like you avoid material which conflicts with your memes, Simo 1939_1940 Jan 2012 #119
That's what I say when I'm too ashamed to say "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts" Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #135
Here's what I think: Atypical Liberal Jan 2012 #51
Yeah, that blue color was a little lurid. Don't worry about not 'reading... SteveW Jan 2012 #72
That line of 'reasoning' would make any pictures of flowers The Doctor. Jan 2012 #83
Ignorance is bliss DragonBorn Jan 2012 #221
I believe that the"gun porn" scares him. n/t oneshooter Jan 2012 #224
Maybe the law could be rewritten... ellisonz Jan 2012 #6
"Death Spewer"? That is funny DonP Jan 2012 #7
Yeah whatever... ellisonz Jan 2012 #15
rude death spewer gunner toter baser. ileus Jan 2012 #50
Intentionally or unintentionally not showing the side with the stock folded against it? rl6214 Jan 2012 #10
Looking at the pic of the AK, ManiacJoe Jan 2012 #14
Yes. Underfolders are slow to deploy and a bit of a pain for that reason, though. benEzra Jan 2012 #23
No...This is a death spewer. beevul Jan 2012 #16
I have occassionally... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #66
It's understandable that one might get that impression from the "fear sells" media... benEzra Jan 2012 #22
Nope, that's a death spewer. ellisonz Jan 2012 #70
'ze Germans' would be carrying automatics in this case. His guns are no match. The Doctor. Jan 2012 #89
I resent you saying I have "hatred" by the way. ellisonz Jan 2012 #91
After you apologize for all of your mischaracterizations, The Doctor. Jan 2012 #115
It's not mischaracterization when it's true and the consensus depiction... ellisonz Jan 2012 #213
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #219
Why would I want to play footsie with you? ellisonz Jan 2012 #220
You don't realize how much you are projecting, do you? The Doctor. Jan 2012 #223
Sounds to me like you are afraid to take the test. n/t oneshooter Jan 2012 #225
LOL beevul Jan 2012 #228
I'll bite. ellisonz Jan 2012 #230
Fundamental misunderstandings. Straw Man Jan 2012 #232
And bite you did. beevul Jan 2012 #233
There's the classic "Damn right we'll conficate" friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #234
Let me remind you what the gun control lobby *used* to say about Title 1 rifles like mine. benEzra Jan 2012 #136
i have a very similar rifle YllwFvr Jan 2012 #198
No, just the West Germans. :-b benEzra Jan 2012 #121
Do you have some sort of plan to separate me from my death spewer? Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #137
death spewer toter -- I may have to make that my new sigline -- wonder how well that would go over Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #152
AAAAAAhahahahahahahahaha rl6214 Jan 2012 #154
See someone with a sense of humor about life... ellisonz Jan 2012 #155
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #222
I hope to get an AK pistol this year for the Jeep. ileus Jan 2012 #49
I have a 30cal BAR and a 1919a4 for my jeep oneshooter Jan 2012 #118
I have an AR pistol I built that I take out often in the jeep. rl6214 Jan 2012 #156
"Death Spewer" Atypical Liberal Jan 2012 #59
You expect "virulent pro-death spewer reaction" from fellow progressives? SteveW Jan 2012 #73
You're as bad as the anti-choicers. The Doctor. Jan 2012 #87
"It can certainly be characterized as 'hysterical', though I'll leave out the gender aspect of it." ellisonz Jan 2012 #90
That's not rational, but I'd like to help. The Doctor. Jan 2012 #95
I have no need for your "help" ellisonz Jan 2012 #98
Whatever excuse you need to avoid backing up your own assertions. The Doctor. Jan 2012 #107
"It can certainly be characterized as 'hysterical', though I'll leave out the gender aspect of it." ellisonz Jan 2012 #109
Like I said, you were fishing for excuses to avoid a substantive challenge. The Doctor. Jan 2012 #110
Full automatics ARE legal, in many states. beevul Jan 2012 #151
Wow, I haven't seen a backpedal like that in ages. mvccd1000 Jan 2012 #173
When you call people and/or their tools "death-spewers", you are accusing them of homocidal intent PavePusher Jan 2012 #189
Would you like to hear about the gun control measures I'm OK with? benEzra Jan 2012 #138
I'm very open-minded.... ellisonz Jan 2012 #149
Oh we can tell you're open minded... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #187
That's your opinion. ellisonz Jan 2012 #197
What do you find unconvincing? We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #200
... ellisonz Jan 2012 #204
I guess I just don't understand your sense of humor. We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #205
There was a lot of funny about that post... ellisonz Jan 2012 #208
Since you wont engage in actual debate.... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #211
Debating you is like debating a dining room table, I have no further interest in doing it. n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #215
If you keep losing to the dining room table.... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #216
He's gonna have one bitch of a time when the armoire wakes up... Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #231
I don't know a single gun owner that dosen't want to see an end to violence rl6214 Jan 2012 #158
Most European systems would liscense you as a collector I believe... ellisonz Jan 2012 #159
Or as a competitive shooter. benEzra Jan 2012 #172
I am licensed as a collector rl6214 Jan 2012 #177
So then I suppose the question... ellisonz Jan 2012 #178
I guess my question would be...what is a higher standard? rl6214 Jan 2012 #180
Say required by law like you've done on your own to... ellisonz Jan 2012 #183
I know there are some places that have requirements like that rl6214 Jan 2012 #184
I love Guns forum analogies iverglas Jan 2012 #114
That's pretty misandrist of you to say that. The Doctor. Jan 2012 #117
do you have an opinion on abortion? iverglas Jan 2012 #124
You need glasses then. The Doctor. Jan 2012 #128
omg iverglas Jan 2012 #148
Many years, no reason. mvccd1000 Jan 2012 #174
That AK is pretty stupid DissedByBush Jan 2012 #126
This poster is no longer with us. ellisonz Jan 2012 #179
What did dissed do to warrant his ejection? rl6214 Jan 2012 #181
From his profile: ellisonz Jan 2012 #182
Didn't I see something like that in a post that he was going to post it as his sig line rl6214 Jan 2012 #185
Doncha know those against pistol grips don't care how uncomfortable it is to shoot without one rl6214 Jan 2012 #8
Yeah, but when I Read a few lines, it's about better if attacked. Hoyt Jan 2012 #26
"Too much paranoia" indeed. benEzra Jan 2012 #28
Don't care about that bull. This commando bs is not good for society. Hoyt Jan 2012 #30
Dude, I'm a 41-year old geek. benEzra Jan 2012 #32
You still read townhall.com. Hoyt Jan 2012 #37
Actually, I don't. benEzra Jan 2012 #45
Sorry, wrong thread. I was posting from new phone rather than desktop. Hoyt Jan 2012 #48
No problem at all; we're all human here. benEzra Jan 2012 #125
I have no real problem with most people having a gun at home. But, not so much, in public. Hoyt Jan 2012 #161
Whoa, you can't remember who linked townhall.com? beevul Jan 2012 #47
Lookout... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #67
Admittedly, that's funny. Hoyt Jan 2012 #165
Have a nice day. discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #186
BE CAREFUL! discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #188
Do you strap on a backup as well? Hoyt Jan 2012 #192
Negative, sir. discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #193
Define 'not good' and 'commando' E6-B Jan 2012 #34
Members of gun culture always want definitions. Think is my advice. Hoyt Jan 2012 #36
I think you have not thought this out very much. E6-B Jan 2012 #52
Well yeah.... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #57
If you can't define a problem then it indicates you don't understand the problem. Atypical Liberal Jan 2012 #62
Defining terms is important Union Scribe Jan 2012 #130
Read my signature....... Simo 1939_1940 Jan 2012 #133
In what way is it harmful? Atypical Liberal Jan 2012 #60
"Commando:" Are you referencing an old Studebaker? nt SteveW Jan 2012 #74
I don't get it...why are you so opposed to people defending themselves against thugs? Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #140
I'd like to see your society policeman badge rl6214 Jan 2012 #160
Good post my boy x dog Jan 2012 #9
I carried a shotgun around with a sawed off stock when someone was stalking and tried Lint Head Jan 2012 #11
I hear you on stalker. On pistol grip, it's kind of like some folks recommend maturbation Hoyt Jan 2012 #38
Not competitve. I just target practice. Lint Head Jan 2012 #227
Pistol grips are very good on shotguns DissedByBush Jan 2012 #127
Yeah, hearing that silly meme repeated here made me scratch my head. X_Digger Jan 2012 #13
Again, talking about at close range in surprise at a crowd... ellisonz Jan 2012 #17
If you ever find yourself in NC, shoot me a PM. benEzra Jan 2012 #24
They're virtually the same in those circumstances, pistol grip or straight stock. X_Digger Jan 2012 #27
You mean, like a crowd in the queue to go through a metal detector... krispos42 Jan 2012 #35
Into a public event... ellisonz Jan 2012 #40
By that criteria, you should be more worried about shotguns. beevul Jan 2012 #42
"And yet...somehow I doubt that you are." ellisonz Jan 2012 #43
Nice dodge. beevul Jan 2012 #44
Are you keeping records? ellisonz Jan 2012 #68
We all are. Atypical Liberal Jan 2012 #69
And yet I'm the totalitarian... ellisonz Jan 2012 #77
Indeed, and we are keeping record of that fact. Atypical Liberal Jan 2012 #79
At last, something about which I can agree with you Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #141
lol ellisonz Jan 2012 #144
Well, I just took you at your word, it's my usual MO. I'm new here but not to the world. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #145
Well, that's a very silly criteria. PavePusher Jan 2012 #191
So are you saying dude's been following my posts for over a year? ellisonz Jan 2012 #194
Really? You make an accusation of stalking from out of the blue? PavePusher Jan 2012 #199
Grow a sense of humor. ellisonz Jan 2012 #202
No, that is not even remotely what he said. We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #201
When you say "I'm not attempting to insult you" ellisonz Jan 2012 #203
No i really wasn't We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #206
Oh I sorree Mr. We_Have_A_Problem... ellisonz Jan 2012 #209
Truthfully... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #212
"You also frequently seem to completely misunderstand what should have been crystal clear." ellisonz Jan 2012 #214
I agree with you 100% We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #217
I state my opinion... ellisonz Jan 2012 #218
Sigh.... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #226
Worry about the wrath of an unplugged Remington 870 shotgun! Argh. SteveW Jan 2012 #76
You *do* have to index a rifle at any realistic distance. benEzra Jan 2012 #46
You're right, it's not that widespread in the United States yet... ellisonz Jan 2012 #146
Thoughts, at some length... benEzra Jan 2012 #166
Thoughts, in brief... ellisonz Jan 2012 #175
Sigh... benEzra Jan 2012 #176
A couple of observations re: claims on your part Euromutt Jan 2012 #235
A couple of judgments re: claims on your part ellisonz Jan 2012 #236
If you're trying to make a point, maybe you should try sticking to it Euromutt Jan 2012 #238
Same shit, different poster. n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #240
"Please tell me why someone should be allowed to own half-a-dozen handguns with little oversight." friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #239
The issue is theft and supply to the black market. n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #241
You really couldn't say more clearly that you do not understand the point. TheWraith Jan 2012 #78
What is the point? ellisonz Jan 2012 #80
Yes, that it's ergonomic. TheWraith Jan 2012 #84
Well I hope that one day soon these military grade weapons will be severely restricted... ellisonz Jan 2012 #85
You've yet to provide any validity to your 'side'.. X_Digger Jan 2012 #92
Different subject... ellisonz Jan 2012 #93
All guns or their antecedents, save for a few target guns / bench competition guns.. X_Digger Jan 2012 #99
Can you reduce the size of your pron? n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #100
Do you even do the slightest bit of fact checking? We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #102
Have you considered that there are other standards of lethality than ballistics? n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #103
By all means We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #105
Sure. ellisonz Jan 2012 #106
Except that.... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #111
Nice... killer angel Jan 2012 #195
Did you think nobody would notice your substitution? X_Digger Jan 2012 #112
Do not expect honesty from these people. The Doctor. Jan 2012 #116
You know you linked to your own post, right? moriah Jan 2012 #157
Extrapolation isn't just a word beginning with 'E'. The Doctor. Jan 2012 #162
Damn, then, guess I shoulda voted to hide when it was alerted. ;) moriah Jan 2012 #164
Referring to other posts in a single thread The Doctor. Jan 2012 #169
*taps foot*.. X_Digger Jan 2012 #153
Which of course explains why they are used in less than 3% of all homicides committed with firearms. AtheistCrusader Jan 2012 #237
*taps foot*.. X_Digger Jan 2012 #245
Yes, there are. benEzra Jan 2012 #143
Those aren't "military grade weapons." TheWraith Jan 2012 #96
Except you are very insistently confusing NON-military-grade weapons with actual benEzra Jan 2012 #139
Unless there is a serious and dramatic change in human behavior We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #94
It appears that some people think abysmal ignorance of a subject is somehow a progressive value? DonP Jan 2012 #101
Well, if an armed citizen can't figure out and shoot the right person in a milling panicked, crowd.. krispos42 Jan 2012 #82
Seriously?! A pistol grip aids in concealment?! Simo 1939_1940 Jan 2012 #242
You had a point? We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #58
Notice how even soldiers carry for quick spraying DissedByBush Jan 2012 #131
Interesting picture E6-B Jan 2012 #171
Nice historic photo - looks like an old Browning Automatic Rifle JustABozoOnThisBus Jan 2012 #56
That is and he is. The Browning BAR was designed as a "keep their heads down" oneshooter Jan 2012 #120
I wish my dad made me cool stuff like his father did DonP Jan 2012 #61
Anschutz makes extremely accuarate target rifles... spin Jan 2012 #18
Always a pleasure to read a well thought out Union Scribe Jan 2012 #20
Dreaded bayonet attacks E6-B Jan 2012 #29
I endorse them? But, anyone who needs a bayonet, should be prohibited from guns. Hoyt Jan 2012 #31
Is it a massive problem? Bayonet fear mongering. E6-B Jan 2012 #33
If you really think you need a bayonet, you should talk to a medical professional IMlayO. Hoyt Jan 2012 #39
Why? Flash supressors? E6-B Jan 2012 #54
Why should he need a medical professional when you're right here on the scene? Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #142
Can you help me understand flash suppressor logic? E6-B Jan 2012 #170
Sadly, I can not. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #229
I prefer to shoot the litter back to the stone age era veteran Jan 2012 #41
I used my bayonet in the army, and carry one when hunting JustABozoOnThisBus Jan 2012 #53
I think really they're talking about the attachment to a rifle...n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #88
A bayonet is merely a knife... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #104
Most of the early bayonets were 16-24" long oneshooter Jan 2012 #123
Is there any use for a forward pistol grip? JustABozoOnThisBus Jan 2012 #55
The same ergonomics as the rear pistol grip. X_Digger Jan 2012 #63
Great post!! montanto Jan 2012 #64
The Devil!!! Glassunion Jan 2012 #65
Good to hear from you again, Ben. Hope all is well in your family. nt SteveW Jan 2012 #71
Doing great, thanks! benEzra Jan 2012 #150
+1. Dude, that's good news. Thanks for the update. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #163
Glad to hear things look a lot better than they did for a while there. DonP Jan 2012 #190
That determined look. Wish I were that young if for that reason only. nt SteveW Jan 2012 #196
What a person with no feffing clue sounds like.... E6-B Jan 2012 #75
I see you're a fan of the Tucker! n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #86
no, probably googled gejohnston Jan 2012 #97
OMFG! DissedByBush Jan 2012 #134
OMFG she is in Congress writing gun control laws. E6-B Jan 2012 #167
I cannot believe... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #207
Didn't you just post a thread in Meta Union Scribe Jan 2012 #129
Unknowingly via yahoo news. ellisonz Jan 2012 #147
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #168
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #132
Death Spewing hip fire... Glassunion Jan 2012 #108
And compare that can't-hit-squat hip shooting benEzra Jan 2012 #243
Actually, that's not hip firing... PavePusher Jan 2012 #246
Point of order Glassunion Jan 2012 #247
My point exactly... PavePusher Jan 2012 #248
I shot a muzzle loader for the first time last weeked (obviously, no pistol grip)... OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2012 #113
I wish all criminals would always shoot from the hip DissedByBush Jan 2012 #122
*dancing* ellisonz Jan 2012 #210
Isn't it great seeing fun guns being accepted by common shooters across America. ileus Jan 2012 #244
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»Pistol grips on long guns...»Reply #0