Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
Israel/Palestine
In reply to the discussion: The Crazy Lie of "Pinkwashing" and the Liberal Case for Israel [View all]pelsar
(12,283 posts)95. heres the response...
"What you are really saying is that Israel will forever retain he West Bank do to paranoia, because no one can 100% guarantee anything and Israel do to its distrust of Arabs both external and internal is willing to do this,
yes its your opinion, but that opinion is certainly not based on the reality of the borders today:
Then why does Israel insist on keeping the Jordan river valley under its dominance......simple Israel does not trust Jordan who's reward it seems is that for now IDF doesn't actively try to kill Jordanians
Map time: look north and south of the west bank...what do you see? a long barely guarded border by the IDF...
(and its the jordanians that actively shoot across the border, and its the Jordanians who actively alert the IDF when there is activity on their border and its the IDF that has supported Jordan in the past, be it black september or other aspects. Hence once again we see proof that israel is not paranoid about its arab neighbors.
you speak about Gaza as if the rocket attacks started in 2005 when we both know that is untrue, as to buyers remorse I did not buy anything about Gaza except that the 2006 elections were ill conceived and 'rumor' has it that Abbas counciled against them but Bush and Olmert insisted they proceed anyway and then acted surprised at the outcome, which they were warned about prior, the rest is disputed history.
the question is if you are satisfied with the outcome....of Israel leaving gaza and knowing how it would turn out, would you still support it.
as far as the internal politics, rumors and ill conceived elections...thats called the real world. Nothing really works out as per one persons plan, but does work out sometimes as per someone else's. In this case the hamas plan worked out quite well whereas the PA/US plan didn't'. We in israel are well aware of such events and do not close our eyes to the reality. If you need another example, the arab spring, the iranian spring, didn't work out as "planned" by some, but did quite well by others. Israels attempt to change the Lebanese govt fell flat, that is the essence of politics....some plans work out, its just not always yours.
as far as the rocket attacks....the concept was that when israel leaves gaza, uproots settlements, the gazans would then stop trying to kill us. If that is not the concept, then why even bother leaving the west bank?
______________
why won't Hamas do a repeat well it seems that the Palestinians do learn and even they do not wish for Hamas rule and if elections were held today Hamas would suffer a defeat
hamas was "outgunned" in gaza, by the numbers, yet easily defeated the PA forces. They were not "elected" to take over the security of gaza, that was the PA's job. All of a sudden you can read the future about hamas suffering a defeat?, perhaps they will do a variation of the egyptian spring, perhaps a version of lebanons civil war will spring up, the options that involve an unstable govt, where there are multitude of intl forces involved is endless, with one constant-change will occur.
as per the jordanian govt, egyptian govt or even the lebanon govt, israel doesn't need 100% assurance because such a thing does not exist, but it does need something better than the gaza example has shown, and its a PA problem to convince us, we already "did the big thing", break the cycle of violence, made the big gesture, destroyed settlements, let them govern their own (remember all of those progressive mantras before gaza?..i sure do, the progressives couldn't get enough of them and then when israel did it, and kept on receiving rockets, and more of them and larger ones......
all of a sudden "pulling out of gaza didn't count' as per the excuses you mentioned
you do remember that history as well.......that should be an essential part of information to base your opinion on
Hamas and friends were a lot smarter than bush/abbas/NGO's, the progressives, etc that that all demanded an israeli pullout, thats the bottom line of the gaza pullout. Hamas has I'm sure adjusted their plans for the west bank as well, as has proven very astute, they are a serious player in this game with serious consequences, your ignoring them, just like the progressives did in gaza, because it complicates matters and makes a pullout no longer a sure thing toward any peace or even any kind of "progressive" govt. It certainly makes life easier....
but we don't have that luxury of ignoring hamas and friends.
yes its your opinion, but that opinion is certainly not based on the reality of the borders today:
Then why does Israel insist on keeping the Jordan river valley under its dominance......simple Israel does not trust Jordan who's reward it seems is that for now IDF doesn't actively try to kill Jordanians
Map time: look north and south of the west bank...what do you see? a long barely guarded border by the IDF...
(and its the jordanians that actively shoot across the border, and its the Jordanians who actively alert the IDF when there is activity on their border and its the IDF that has supported Jordan in the past, be it black september or other aspects. Hence once again we see proof that israel is not paranoid about its arab neighbors.
you speak about Gaza as if the rocket attacks started in 2005 when we both know that is untrue, as to buyers remorse I did not buy anything about Gaza except that the 2006 elections were ill conceived and 'rumor' has it that Abbas counciled against them but Bush and Olmert insisted they proceed anyway and then acted surprised at the outcome, which they were warned about prior, the rest is disputed history.
the question is if you are satisfied with the outcome....of Israel leaving gaza and knowing how it would turn out, would you still support it.
as far as the internal politics, rumors and ill conceived elections...thats called the real world. Nothing really works out as per one persons plan, but does work out sometimes as per someone else's. In this case the hamas plan worked out quite well whereas the PA/US plan didn't'. We in israel are well aware of such events and do not close our eyes to the reality. If you need another example, the arab spring, the iranian spring, didn't work out as "planned" by some, but did quite well by others. Israels attempt to change the Lebanese govt fell flat, that is the essence of politics....some plans work out, its just not always yours.
as far as the rocket attacks....the concept was that when israel leaves gaza, uproots settlements, the gazans would then stop trying to kill us. If that is not the concept, then why even bother leaving the west bank?
______________
why won't Hamas do a repeat well it seems that the Palestinians do learn and even they do not wish for Hamas rule and if elections were held today Hamas would suffer a defeat
hamas was "outgunned" in gaza, by the numbers, yet easily defeated the PA forces. They were not "elected" to take over the security of gaza, that was the PA's job. All of a sudden you can read the future about hamas suffering a defeat?, perhaps they will do a variation of the egyptian spring, perhaps a version of lebanons civil war will spring up, the options that involve an unstable govt, where there are multitude of intl forces involved is endless, with one constant-change will occur.
as per the jordanian govt, egyptian govt or even the lebanon govt, israel doesn't need 100% assurance because such a thing does not exist, but it does need something better than the gaza example has shown, and its a PA problem to convince us, we already "did the big thing", break the cycle of violence, made the big gesture, destroyed settlements, let them govern their own (remember all of those progressive mantras before gaza?..i sure do, the progressives couldn't get enough of them and then when israel did it, and kept on receiving rockets, and more of them and larger ones......
all of a sudden "pulling out of gaza didn't count' as per the excuses you mentioned
you do remember that history as well.......that should be an essential part of information to base your opinion on
Hamas and friends were a lot smarter than bush/abbas/NGO's, the progressives, etc that that all demanded an israeli pullout, thats the bottom line of the gaza pullout. Hamas has I'm sure adjusted their plans for the west bank as well, as has proven very astute, they are a serious player in this game with serious consequences, your ignoring them, just like the progressives did in gaza, because it complicates matters and makes a pullout no longer a sure thing toward any peace or even any kind of "progressive" govt. It certainly makes life easier....
but we don't have that luxury of ignoring hamas and friends.
Edit history
Please sign in to view edit histories.
187 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RecommendedHighlight replies with 5 or more recommendations
Do you believe that attitude towards gays is the sole judgement of a country? yes or no
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#11
The countries with the best human rights record also have the best record with respect to gay rights
oberliner
Jun 2012
#13
well thank you you seem to be admiting that despite having some of the most progressive laws
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#45
Repulsive it was plainly tongue in cheek but getting the right jury here is all important isn't it?
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#20
But anyone who has read the post knows he said his wife did not support Gay marriage
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#27
actually I made the edit after I reread the post but believe what ever pleases you
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#31
Could you please post the alert and jury decision ? I am most curious about this
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#32
so are we to take that the PA is enforcing women being veiled or cutting off thieves hands?
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#53
Because your question seems to work on the assumption that the West Bank will be a theocracy
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#59
your comments on Arab/Muslim countries being alike reminds me of the not too distant past
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#67
So now you claim that Jordan is actively shooting right now at Israel cross border?
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#101
i see you've been ignoring my question about gaza ......but i'll amuse you and then ask again
pelsar
Jun 2012
#125
I;m a RW nationist because I point out Gaza could have benn better handled than it was by Bush
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#177
if your preference is for a theocratic govt vs a secular one....based on genes.....
pelsar
Jun 2012
#178
its not a matter of supporting...its a matter of what is least worst choice....
pelsar
Jun 2012
#180
well maybe most Israelis don't want West Bank but do they want the Israelis living there as
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#185
as i mentioned......the Palestinians and friends might want to face reality....
pelsar
Jun 2012
#186
do you really need another history lesson?...how many times do i have to teach you?
pelsar
Jun 2012
#40
You can't compare the situation in Palestine now with postwar Germany and Japan
Ken Burch
Jun 2012
#43
I don't operate out of blind faith in anything...and I'm not addicted to anything.
Ken Burch
Jun 2012
#56
Nobody in the Zionist community was thankful for the British military presence
Ken Burch
Jun 2012
#127
Ken, what do you make of the many Palestinians who prefer Israeli rule over Hamas/PA control?
shira
Jun 2012
#131
Most of those who want something other than Hamas do not want that something
Ken Burch
Jun 2012
#133
Facts for Ken: A Palestinian who would accept settlements & many Palestinians who prefer occupation
shira
Jun 2012
#68
true however last I looked no one was promoting Abuminah for President of the PA
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#78
So attacking the messenger, not the substance, is all you've got. Here's more substance...
shira
Jun 2012
#79
no I do not think they're fake at moreover that is not what I've said is it? seems your looking for
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#90
So if they're not fake, they're legit. They show many, many Palestinians prefer....
shira
Jun 2012
#96
so what percantage of the the 4 million Palestinians living in the OPT and Gaza does
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#98
Seems you guys are for preserving settlements. If it were up to me, they wouldn't...
shira
Jun 2012
#83
OK. I can accept that they can have a nominal claim to a few bits of land in the West Bank.
Ken Burch
Jun 2012
#86
"Jordan is Palestine" is discredited. Only the racist far right in Israel still argues for that.
Ken Burch
Jun 2012
#89
I don't think I said making peace with the Palestinians would end ALL threats
Ken Burch
Jun 2012
#106
I don't have to demand that Palestinians change their leadership BEFORE getting self-determination
Ken Burch
Jun 2012
#130
Ken, if you don't support a theocratic religious dictatorship in Gaza, then why...
shira
Jun 2012
#134
Denial. Now you don't believe the Palestinians when they tell you most prefer the IDF...
shira
Jun 2012
#138
oh...so you prefer to live in fantasy land...while ignoring the consequences...
pelsar
Jun 2012
#173
So Israel requires some of the mountain range for security if you say some IDF personnel....
shira
Jun 2012
#121
Since you're against the occupation, Ken, are you in favor of unilateral withdrawal...
shira
Jun 2012
#9
lol still trying huh quite the challange there take what ever Israel is willing give sight unseen or
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#69
The Liberal case for anything Israeli really drives anti-Israel nuts up the wall....
shira
Jun 2012
#88
No my point was that the OP is not a news story of any kind, it is in fact an advertisment
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#92
But in your own words exactly what is it a testament to why do you think the Hosts of this group
azurnoir
Jun 2012
#155