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OKIsItJustMe

(19,937 posts)
41. Can you document this? (i.e. that more efficient cars lead to more consumption.)
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:50 PM
Jan 2013
http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/03/green-cars-jevons-paradox
[font face=Serif][font size=5]Do Green Cars Just Make People Drive More?[/font]
—By Kiera Butler | Mon Mar. 7, 2011 2:30 AM PST

[font size=3]…

Furthermore, Matt Mattila, who leads RMI's effort to help cities transition to electric cars, points out that the limiting factor for driving isn't fuel consumption, but rather time spent behind the weel. "Drivers generally don't know their vehicles' fuel economy, but if they did see it improve, they wouldn't 'balance' that out by trying to find more time in the vehicle," says Mattila.

Building on that idea, Simon Mui, a scientist who studies electric cars at the Natural Resources Defense Council, calls the notion of attributing increased driving to gains in fuel efficiency "mind-boggling." Because of population increase, rising incomes, sprawl, and increased car ownership rates, vehicle miles traveled has gone up both in the US and abroad, says Mui. "This has happened even when fuel economy was flat (or even worsening because of SUVs) in the US over the past three decades."

Still, there's a kernel of truth to the Jevons Paradox argument. When talking about fuel-efficient cars, it's important to distinguish between the rebound effect and the backlash effect. The rebound effect—where some savings are lost because of increased use—is well-documented, and regulators take it into account: Last year, the EPA and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration assumed a 10 percent rebound effect when they made their final ruling on emissions standards. But a backlash effect—where increased car use actually cancels out any savings gained by efficiency—has never been documented.

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Jevons: a 19th Century Zeno [View all] OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 OP
Jevons was making an observation about human psychology, not math or physics phantom power Jan 2013 #1
Actually, Jevons said nothing of the sort. OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #3
What is your interpretation of this: phantom power Jan 2013 #7
Wait a second… OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #8
I don't think there's any implied statement about price of resources going down... phantom power Jan 2013 #12
Re: price of resources going down OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #14
I think there are two kinds of answer to that... phantom power Jan 2013 #20
This is pseduo-science nuttiness NoOneMan Jan 2013 #2
I agree OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #4
Is the fiscal multiplier nutty? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #6
The fiscal multiplier is real, but overstated in this case OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #9
Overstated? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #10
Jevons misstated reality OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #13
Start a thread about it then NoOneMan Jan 2013 #15
I did start a thread OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #19
One that is about discrete math, economic multipliers and now innovation NoOneMan Jan 2013 #21
As I said OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #24
There is no extra money in Planck's wallet. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2013 #5
Planck length only addresses matter, not distance wtmusic Jan 2013 #79
The additional money comes from resource extraction and manufacturing GliderGuider Jan 2013 #11
Is that resource exraction the result of more efficiency? OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #17
Money made available as a result of efficiency doesn't need to be created by fiat. GliderGuider Jan 2013 #26
The $100 worth of energy I “saved” would have come from resource extraction OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #43
No, actually I'm now saying this: GliderGuider Jan 2013 #57
Indeed, Jevons was wrong OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #61
Conversely though... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #65
I will agree that improving efficiency does not correlate well with a society using less energy OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #67
I think there is something you might be missing NoOneMan Jan 2013 #68
You merely have a hunch OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #72
The evidence is what Jevons pointed to muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #97
Jevon's Paradox was thought of in a much less complex economy in my opinion NoOneMan Jan 2013 #63
Yes - fewer energy sources, fewer manufactured goods, greater transportation costs, GliderGuider Jan 2013 #69
Sure, thereby creating the perfect Red Herring NoOneMan Jan 2013 #70
The additional money comes from improved efficiency Nederland Jan 2013 #16
You’ll have to simply that for me. OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #18
Its not just about YOU NoOneMan Jan 2013 #22
“A better example would be people simply switching to a lower wattage traditional bulb…” OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #25
The immediate result would be less consumption of coal based energy NoOneMan Jan 2013 #28
What-the-what!? OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #34
Have you heard of the concept called "time"? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #38
Can you document this occurring OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #39
Household appliances are a decent example NoOneMan Jan 2013 #44
No appliances aren’t a good example of Jevons’ Paradox OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #46
Those studies were done in the early 80s regarding efficiency standards implemented in late 70s NoOneMan Jan 2013 #51
I'm looking for documentation OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #52
"Economic Implications of Mandated Efficiency Standards for Household Appliances." NoOneMan Jan 2013 #55
Anything written in this century? OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #58
Straw man. What you describe is not Jevon's paradox. Speck Tater Jan 2013 #23
Why do more efficient cars mean more people will buy them? OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #27
It means lower initial demand for gas, making more people able to buy gas NoOneMan Jan 2013 #29
Except, it doesn’t work that way OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #32
It does work that way NoOneMan Jan 2013 #35
(see above) OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #37
Your question is faulty NoOneMan Jan 2013 #40
Can you document this? (i.e. that more efficient cars lead to more consumption.) OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #41
Can you document that cheaper oil doesn't result in more people using oil? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #45
How about this? OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #47
The relationship between its price and its use is undeniable NoOneMan Jan 2013 #49
Wait a second… OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #56
Get back to Jevon's? I thought this thread was about discrete math NoOneMan Jan 2013 #60
Once again, back to Jevons please OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #64
You can't demand we talk about Jevon's without substantiating your premises NoOneMan Jan 2013 #66
That's isn't what I asked NoOneMan Jan 2013 #53
Back to Jevons again OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #59
As I just replied... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #62
The specific Jevons-style rebound is probably less significant than general growth GliderGuider Jan 2013 #30
In any case, it isn't a strict "rule" but an explanation of observed market behavior NoOneMan Jan 2013 #31
So, your answer is that it really isn’t Jevons’ Paradox at work OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #33
My answer is that Jevon's Paradox doesn't "work". NoOneMan Jan 2013 #36
On David Owen and William Jevons OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #42
Why do I care about that article? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #48
You may not care about that article OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #50
Nothing about your thread here is an appeal to logic to be honest NoOneMan Jan 2013 #54
Wow...the fatalists struck gold with this one. wtmusic Jan 2013 #71
I don't think any of that is the point NoOneMan Jan 2013 #73
Civilization is producing more efficiently than it ever has in human history wtmusic Jan 2013 #77
Its a simple concept here NoOneMan Jan 2013 #80
Simple, but wrong. wtmusic Jan 2013 #81
The problem is assumption 2 mainly NoOneMan Jan 2013 #82
Good questions, but if you're going to support your hypothesis wtmusic Jan 2013 #84
Here is a quick answer.... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #86
Help me here...your source says you're wrong. wtmusic Jan 2013 #87
I said alter the assumption NoOneMan Jan 2013 #88
Why would you do that when solar produces 1% of US energy? wtmusic Jan 2013 #89
Because near 90% of electricity where I live is renewable NoOneMan Jan 2013 #92
Fine, but what's relevant to you is not close to being relevant to society as a whole wtmusic Jan 2013 #94
Presuming that society on a whole will not lower the carbon-intensity of their energy NoOneMan Jan 2013 #96
Trim quotes much? GliderGuider Jan 2013 #83
Both versions are meaningless and unsupportable wtmusic Jan 2013 #85
In general, we are going about pretending we don't even have to think about these matters NoOneMan Jan 2013 #90
My new term of the week is "motivated reasoning" GliderGuider Jan 2013 #93
Mine is "motivated density" wtmusic Jan 2013 #95
Not so. GliderGuider Jan 2013 #91
BTW, have you ever conversely thought.... NoOneMan Jan 2013 #74
There is no limit to human wants and desires. GliderGuider Jan 2013 #75
Especially humans with the desire to make others' lives better wtmusic Jan 2013 #78
With transglobal corporate monsters ruling all, Zeno's paradox certainly applies to you and me... Peace Patriot Jan 2013 #76
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