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The Magistrate

(95,725 posts)
172. The 'Volunteer' Wheeze Is Very Old, Sir
Fri Aug 29, 2014, 01:51 AM
Aug 2014

Russia sent four squadrons of fighters, two of bombers, and a tank regiment plus infantry for local security, to China in the late thirties to fight Japanese; all personnel were officially described as volunteers, in no way formed units of the Russian armed forces, and there was a money out one pocket to another bit of book-keeping to pretend the Chinese purchased the equipment, and claims that anyway, the aircrew were there only to train Chinese. Japan not wanting war with Russia much more than Russia did with Japan, did not treat this as grounds for more than strenuous protest, even though the Russian units were quite effective, and some of their personnel captured. No one was fooled, everyone involved, and all informed un-lookers, understood Russia had sent a sizeable ready-made air force to assist China, and did so because it wanted Japan kept busy away from Siberia and the Maritime Provinces.

It is simply a fact that Russia is now sending formed units of Russian soldiery, with their equipment, into Ukraine. You are free to whinge that this is not 'an invasion' because Russia could surely move several divisions under air cover into Ukraine, rather than something which seems in total about the equivalent of a brigade at present. But that does not mean it is not an act of the Russian government, not a deployment of Russian soldiers and equipment under Russian orders into combat with Ukraine's armed forces. The paper-work does not impress me, and it does not alter the essence of the matter. Russia is waging a war against Ukraine, a low intensity war, but a war all the same, and its purpose in waging this is the seizure of territory from a neighboring state --- in short, an act of imperialist aggression. It is intended to pay, with full control of oil and gas in the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov which otherwise would benefit Ukraine, and it is viewed as the first essential step to reconstituting the old Russian land empire, or at least as much of this as can practicably be snarfled up in the present day.

Russia has as much right to try this as anyone else has to employ violence for their own aggrandizement, certainly. The problem I have, and a number of other people have as well, is with people who pretend that Russia is not engaged in imperialist aggression, who couch defense of Russia's aggression in Ukraine in terms of resistance to aggression against Russia, and who give every evidence of believing the shabbiest and most threadbare of lies Russia tells about its actions and purposes, all the while insisting everyone who disagrees is duped by propaganda. I could have some respect for someone who made a case on straight realpolitik grounds, and stated straight out their preferred outcome was that Russia achieve its goals, take as much of Ukraine as it thought best for its interests, and reconstituted its old empire. I could respect someone who viewed the thing as a clash between two imperialisms over who would have the sole exploitation of Ukraine, and preferred it to be Russia who became sole exploiter of Ukraine. But I cannot have the slightest respect for the sort of cant which makes up the overwhelming bulk of the commentary made in support of Russian imperialism here.

Funny thing is, Russia was pissed that NATO's influence got closer and closer to Russia's border. DetlefK Aug 2014 #1
Ironically, Russia is single-handedly strengthening NATO. joshcryer Aug 2014 #2
And visa versa. newthinking Aug 2014 #5
NATO is no military threat to Russa and Russia knows that. DetlefK Aug 2014 #14
Estonia and Latvia are NATO countries. amandabeech Aug 2014 #97
Norway is NATO, though. Can't trust those bloodthirsty Vikings, you know. :) freshwest Aug 2014 #244
I'm part Viking myself, but from Southwestern Sweden. amandabeech Aug 2014 #248
Social freedoms? Man from Pickens Aug 2014 #102
Just a few years ago there was talk of disbanding. joshcryer Aug 2014 #23
"So you actually admit that NATO has essentially surrounded Russia" Not... EX500rider Aug 2014 #100
You forgot Sarah watching Putin from her porch. And likes what she sees! freshwest Sep 2014 #249
I forgot NOTHING! lol EX500rider Sep 2014 #250
BWAHAHA! Thanks, that's a keeper! freshwest Sep 2014 #253
Who considers NATO obsolete? JackRiddler Aug 2014 #140
The 2012 Chicago summit left questions for NATO's role. joshcryer Aug 2014 #171
TIME mag coverage as evidence! JackRiddler Aug 2014 #178
Uh, you said "exactly no one." TIME magazine isn't "no one." joshcryer Aug 2014 #187
Uh, you're not reading, you are misquoting. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #188
Yeah, TIME, "not credible." joshcryer Aug 2014 #192
Your "abusive and dismissive attitude" to truth is the real problem. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #206
Pointless drivel. joshcryer Aug 2014 #238
How obsessively you latch on... JackRiddler Aug 2014 #239
Minor quibble? joshcryer Aug 2014 #240
Oh my god, I am so evil! JackRiddler Aug 2014 #241
Looks like NATO's expansion was justified. joshcryer Aug 2014 #243
The hilarity of the self-fulfilling prophecy. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #246
Wow - what a fantasy you reel there... mazzarro Sep 2014 #251
Ok which is it? Ukraine is *now* afraid that Russia has entered in? So they were lying before? newthinking Aug 2014 #3
Russian troops have been there all along. The question is whether Russia will abandon pretense.... Adrahil Aug 2014 #37
Russia is always invading Ukraine. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #242
Did the Russians get lost again? I know this isn't funny.. war never is. Cha Aug 2014 #4
We may have actually *really* left the "proxy" war stage and entered overt war newthinking Aug 2014 #6
Lost LloydS of New London Aug 2014 #7
That was a better television series than this, though... freshwest Aug 2014 #159
Reminds me of my idiot squad leader who lost us in the woods. jakeXT Aug 2014 #8
With a difference. Igel Aug 2014 #12
So it's incompetence sending Russians with Russian documentation and no plan ? /nt jakeXT Aug 2014 #16
This reply was for a different post happyslug Aug 2014 #35
The pro-Banderite faction simply makes it up as they go along. VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #40
Where did you get your information of a 2-3 hour firefight??? happyslug Aug 2014 #42
Plans don't result in action. joshcryer Aug 2014 #189
My Comments were as to what the RUSSIAN Troops were capable of. happyslug Aug 2014 #247
Yes, years ago. Igel Aug 2014 #11
Yeah but it's not their fault. Hosnon Aug 2014 #46
Somebody made a map for them.. Cha Aug 2014 #147
As you say, war isn't funny, but you made me chuckle nonetheless. They "got lost again". Tarheel_Dem Aug 2014 #132
Ukraine crisis: 'Thousands of Russians' fighting in east Bosonic Aug 2014 #9
This invasion from Russia has Duckhunter935 Aug 2014 #10
Exactly, Duckhunter.. Cha Aug 2014 #15
We've known it since "rebel" bodies were being sent to Russia for burial. Or "home". 7962 Aug 2014 #26
Ack, you spoke to soon davidpdx Aug 2014 #30
"Occupied" Crimea. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #148
Yes you are right Duckhunter935 Aug 2014 #150
How far back do you want to go? JackRiddler Aug 2014 #151
'Russian troops deployed' in Ukraine - Poroshenko Bosonic Aug 2014 #13
"The rebel successes constitute the opening of a new front in the conflict." Duckhunter935 Aug 2014 #18
It's an invasion, for sure. Umm.....oops truth2power Aug 2014 #144
Semantic Subterfuge, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #146
Then that's what you should go with, magistrate. Absolutely. truth2power Aug 2014 #180
Always Nice To Start The Morning With A Laugh, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #193
Oh, no, Sir! You can't say 'imperialist.' Only the West is imperialist. Just a warning. freshwest Aug 2014 #245
Reuters seems to have a penchant for "translation mistakes" reorg Aug 2014 #166
I don't know what that has to do with anything - from back in July.. truth2power Aug 2014 #179
Yes, ancient history reorg Aug 2014 #182
On the chance anyone still wants to hear the other side of this story . . . another_liberal Aug 2014 #17
I don't think that 6 otr 7 strident posters means that plenty of newthinking Aug 2014 #19
That is very good news . . . another_liberal Aug 2014 #22
I'll be interested in seeing your response as Russia's intervention becomes more overt. Adrahil Aug 2014 #66
What was your response when the Kiev regime... JackRiddler Aug 2014 #138
I deplore it. I always deplore the uneccessary loss of life, especially civilians. Adrahil Aug 2014 #145
Certainly may happen. What does Russia have to loose since they are being tarred either way. newthinking Aug 2014 #154
The propaganda that's been served up by the US government and it's lackeys around the world truth2power Aug 2014 #160
Ok, thanks for you perspective. I very much disagree. Adrahil Aug 2014 #181
Daily Beast: "Russia Lies About Invading Ukraine as It Invades Ukraine" Tarheel_Dem Aug 2014 #149
Just like there are volunteer groups recruited and trained in Poland newthinking Aug 2014 #20
Russian 'volunteers' who just happen to be driving a Russian-army-only model of tank? muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #21
There are reports those tanks came from the Ukrainian army itself . . . another_liberal Aug 2014 #24
No, nothing there about the T-72BM model with Kontakt-5 armour muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #25
They have T-72 MP with reactive armor and even T-80 with it jakeXT Aug 2014 #28
But it came from RT, so it must be accurate. 7962 Aug 2014 #29
Insults always insults . . . another_liberal Aug 2014 #33
When they don't have facts, they only have insults to fall back on. VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #64
And when we do have facts, you seem to want to end the conversation. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #65
Ummm... some facts were posted. These are models of tanks ONLY THE RUSSIANS have. Adrahil Aug 2014 #107
Sorry, but trying to discern 'facts' from all the invective and propaganda flying VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #111
Your saying that there's no evidence of Russian involvement? IronGate Aug 2014 #112
Man, you are seriously in the tank for Putin.... Adrahil Aug 2014 #129
President Putin and Chinese Premier Li Ping are going to have to manage VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #137
Wow. IronGate Aug 2014 #139
Positing Russia as an Equal Partner With China, Sir, Is Particularly Humorous The Magistrate Aug 2014 #142
What is your source for that information? another_liberal Aug 2014 #186
His source was undoubtedly a Right Sector press release or a VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #196
No, go back and read #21 muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #200
is this another social media success? reorg Aug 2014 #211
Well, you spelled "oops" right. candelista Aug 2014 #230
we use it in German, too reorg Aug 2014 #231
You've got no room to criticize anyone on their source. IronGate Aug 2014 #210
Speaking of insults... truth2power Aug 2014 #163
It is a personal hatred of Russia on the part of some . . . another_liberal Aug 2014 #185
Russian Persecution Of Gay People 'Insults Their Lifestyle', Fella? The Magistrate Aug 2014 #201
Some people want war, clearly . . . another_liberal Aug 2014 #234
You, Sir, Made The Statement They Were Doing So; I Simply Quoted You The Magistrate Aug 2014 #235
That's only your interpretation of my reply . . . another_liberal Aug 2014 #236
Try That On Someone Who Does Not Speak English, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #237
Still excusing and defending Putin and his lackey's I see. IronGate Aug 2014 #39
Almost everything you post excusing Putin ends up being wrong. RT news? Please. 7962 Aug 2014 #27
Next time I take leave Duckhunter935 Aug 2014 #31
Yes...Russian volunteers. OnlinePoker Aug 2014 #36
Those "volunteers" have access to Russian only model tanks too? EX500rider Aug 2014 #103
RT is "the other side of the story"? Hopefully these guys can find their way back to Moscow. "LOST" Tarheel_Dem Aug 2014 #133
another_liberal..You should know by now that rt is not considered a credible source, because truth2power Aug 2014 #183
Rights adviser to Putin says Russia "invading" Ukraine Bosonic Aug 2014 #32
Member of Putin's Human Rights Council: I consider this an invasion. pampango Aug 2014 #34
UN Security Council to hold emergency session on situation in Ukraine at 2pm ET Bosonic Aug 2014 #38
Ha-ha-ha. The UN Security Council proved its utter and complete VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #44
But you cheer Russia's war crimes and geek tragedy Aug 2014 #47
Why don't you learn a little bit about fascism before VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #54
Elections are a sham in fascist Russia. geek tragedy Aug 2014 #57
Sigh. You're hopeless. Buh-bye, now. VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #58
As expected, IronGate Aug 2014 #60
...... Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #62
Fits poster to a tee. nt. IronGate Aug 2014 #63
Every time. Tarheel_Dem Aug 2014 #134
Sounds like fascism to me. From wiki: pampango Aug 2014 #131
funny, every single one of those characteristics save the last applies equally to VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #135
None of which would possible without Russia's sizable conservative population. /nt Ash_F Aug 2014 #77
You know who also has a multiparty parliamentary system of government? Ukraine. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #61
You sure have become one of the leading Russia/Putin cheeleaders here. IronGate Aug 2014 #53
Ukrainian forces (mostly National Guard with a few neo-Nazi VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #41
Outstanding post. ballyhoo Aug 2014 #43
Do you really think posting this rightwing geek tragedy Aug 2014 #45
Ha-ha-ha. "Putin is a fascist" - Best laugh of the morning. (Putin lost VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #49
Putin and his supporters are fascist geek tragedy Aug 2014 #51
LMAO. And Obama is a Communist from Kenya in your mindscape. VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #55
No, we liberals know a bigoted fascist thug geek tragedy Aug 2014 #59
The ones shelling cities right? Cayenne Aug 2014 #214
War is hell. Which is why those who launch geek tragedy Aug 2014 #233
A rose is a rose, etc. Adrahil Aug 2014 #184
"Will not tolerate poitical dissent" but allows a large bloc of Communist MPs VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #190
Heheh... you're a funny guy. Adrahil Aug 2014 #194
Putin's approval rating: 88%. Obama's? Meh, not so much. VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #195
That has nothing to do with anything. Adrahil Aug 2014 #197
It may not have anything to do with anything, but it certainly goes to the question of VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #198
No. I don't. Adrahil Aug 2014 #203
A brutal thug with an 88% domestic approval rating. VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #204
Yup... What's your point? Are you trying to say he's a good guy because people like him in Russia? Adrahil Aug 2014 #205
Obama's approval rating is 39%, last time I checked. Means Putin is more VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #208
Plenty Of People Approve Of Brutality, Sir, And Of Dictatorship, For That Matter The Magistrate Aug 2014 #209
North Korea 4Q2u2 Aug 2014 #216
Um, Stalin defeated Hitler. That's a 'win' in anyone's book, save the neo-Nazi VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #217
Good lord man!!!! IronGate Aug 2014 #219
Yes, Stalin was a real swell guy. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #220
Typical Idol worship 4Q2u2 Aug 2014 #222
I can't believe anyone on any board would defend Stalin love. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #223
True Colors 4Q2u2 Aug 2014 #225
Post removed Post removed Aug 2014 #224
Before or After 4Q2u2 Aug 2014 #226
Well, Zhukov most certainly wasn't 'put to death' and, in fact, maintained cordial relations VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #227
So seriously.....you're seriously praising Stalin now. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #228
AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service Capt. Obvious Aug 2014 #229
Juror No. 7 for the win! nt Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #232
Conservatives love Rush Limbaugh. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #207
Here's an idea, IronGate Aug 2014 #212
Yeah, and a chunk of polonium just happened to fall into Alexander Litvinenko's soup NickB79 Sep 2014 #252
The US right now is the number one inverse fascist country on ballyhoo Aug 2014 #67
.... IronGate Aug 2014 #213
Actually, the Ukrainian government had the upper hand in the fight very recently. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #52
Or everything you said is assorted bunk and Putin was counting ballyhoo Aug 2014 #68
Pretty sure Putin doesn't care what I think. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #70
Those became defunct when ballyhoo Aug 2014 #71
What? Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #72
What was the treaty? Did that treaty include the US ballyhoo Aug 2014 #73
Listen, I really appreciate your attempt to confuse me with 1L jargon and all. It's cute. However... Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #74
Your revision of the Budapest Memorandum nothwithstanding, the US's ballyhoo Aug 2014 #86
Putin had every right to annex Crimea to protect its interests. IronGate Aug 2014 #88
Why not Canada? Lot of 'ethnic English speakers' there. We must protect them from themselves. freshwest Aug 2014 #113
Hell, why not? IronGate Aug 2014 #114
It Is Clear You Understand Nothing About The Subject, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #89
That makes zero logical sense. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #98
Quick reminder: Russia invaded Ukraine with tanks; there's been no US military involvement muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #75
The Maidan was enough of an ballyhoo Aug 2014 #92
Can you tell the difference between a Ukrainian and an American? muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #93
It was an invasion by Americans to change the government in Kieve. Nuland and her ballyhoo Aug 2014 #94
Good lord, IronGate Aug 2014 #95
Words Actually Mean Things, Whether In Common Parlance Or Law, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #96
So whenever anyone from another country visits a country, it constitutes an invasion? Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #99
Visits? If they visit and disrupt the government ballyhoo Aug 2014 #101
Not Even The Definition You Provide, Sir, Matches Your Claim Of What The Word Means The Magistrate Aug 2014 #104
And Valerie Nuland with a bag of cookies constitutes an invading force? Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #109
Absurd and desperate as more and more facts emerge IronGate Aug 2014 #110
Nuland's cookies are the real issue here, no doubt about it. Actual photo of them here: freshwest Aug 2014 #119
Pretty colored cookies. IronGate Aug 2014 #120
I acted upon that desire, myself. Those OREOs tasted great! freshwest Aug 2014 #156
The bag of cookies is a metaphor for ballyhoo Aug 2014 #121
HaHaHaHa. IronGate Aug 2014 #122
Which was.......what? Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #123
Working for the Obama Administration, Victoria Nuland spent ballyhoo Aug 2014 #125
Yeah, that one was rated "Pants on Fire" by Politifact Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #126
It's common knowledge now and her leaked phone calls ballyhoo Aug 2014 #128
So a phone call is the proof of a US sponsored coup? Really? Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #130
What Is Common Knowledge, Sir, Is That Figure, As You Present It, Is Utterly Bogus The Magistrate Aug 2014 #136
Yes, I remember that... Thanks for posting it here. freshwest Aug 2014 #157
Links? Other than RT? nt. IronGate Aug 2014 #127
How did we miss planting an American flag there? We did with the Moon. Guess we ran out of flags. freshwest Aug 2014 #118
Well let's see: First the Orange "Revolution". Pres Yushenko's wife? American Neo-con newthinking Aug 2014 #162
Your Attempt To Explain International Law And Contract, Sir, Would Be Most Amusing.... The Magistrate Aug 2014 #76
Well, to some that was just a piece of paper, you know... freshwest Aug 2014 #124
Cover for Poroshenko.... Xolodno Aug 2014 #48
If it were a 'full-scale invasion,' Russian T-72s and T-80s would VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #50
And your slavering support for the RW fascist govt of Putin IronGate Aug 2014 #56
f-ng vatniks meMeMEEEE Aug 2014 #82
That's how I figure it too. There is a lot of ballyhoo Aug 2014 #69
There's alot of support for the RW fascist Putin and Russia's invasion of Ukraine IronGate Aug 2014 #79
Not just on this board either. nilesobek Aug 2014 #80
This is how WW3 will start. Does Pat Robertson know ballyhoo Aug 2014 #83
And Putin seems determined to start it with his invasion of Ukraine. nt. IronGate Aug 2014 #87
Definately a lot of that...haven't seen that stuff since... Xolodno Aug 2014 #85
Kutuzov would be proud. He was the master of disguise, causing ballyhoo Aug 2014 #91
"The people were very nice and everything was real organized." EX500rider Aug 2014 #106
Sigh. VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #116
Ever been to Russia? nt. IronGate Aug 2014 #117
The people are nice yes, IronGate Aug 2014 #108
So would Zhukov. VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #115
One hopes, actually. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #141
Why don't you like Tymoshenko? She is so pretty and she looks ballyhoo Aug 2014 #143
‘Nuclear weapons’ should be used to kill Russians JackRiddler Aug 2014 #152
I was kidding, Jack. I can't stand the ballyhoo Aug 2014 #153
OSCE: "the Russian Federation is behind the violence" muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #78
I Love The 'Russians Soldiers Are Fighting Here, But They're On Leave' Line, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #81
It's a line no-one here would believe for a moment if the USA ever tried to use it muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #84
so what was the line when Blackwater mercenaries were seen in Donetsk? reorg Aug 2014 #161
Clearing Out The 'Greatest Hits' File Does Not Help, Especially When It Is A Circular File, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #167
It was reported in the reliably anti-Putin German press reorg Aug 2014 #168
All You Are Doing Is Dredging Up Fish-Wrap, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #170
Blackwater and their successor names are mercenaries muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #173
I see. So, that's the line. reorg Aug 2014 #174
If you can't tell the difference between a government and a private company muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #175
I told you the difference n/t reorg Aug 2014 #176
No; you are pretending that Putin sending in columns of tanks to Ukraine is the equivalent muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #177
Well, following your example I might point out that these "columns" reorg Aug 2014 #191
Oh yes, of course "patriotic organisations" in Russia have squadrons of tanks lying around muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #199
Shock and awe over Ukraine? reorg Aug 2014 #202
Privatized the Military? IronGate Aug 2014 #215
Didn't mean to hurt your feelings reorg Aug 2014 #221
The 'boys' were lost, it's not their fault! Canada claims they are geographically challenged: freshwest Aug 2014 #158
More than 100 Russian soldiers killed in 1 battle - members of Russian human rights council muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #90
Well, I think their "uneasy" relationship with the Kremlin just got a TwilightGardener Aug 2014 #105
are these the same 100 Russian soldiers reorg Aug 2014 #164
Probably Not, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #165
if true, this information from second-hand hearsay reorg Aug 2014 #169
The 'Volunteer' Wheeze Is Very Old, Sir The Magistrate Aug 2014 #172
You're getting more desperate and absurd trying to justify and excuse IronGate Aug 2014 #218
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