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The Doctor.

(17,266 posts)
Tue Dec 20, 2011, 10:02 AM Dec 2011

I Have a Pledge to Make. Who Will Join Me? [View all]

If we want to elevate the discourse, some things need to change... from everyone. I'd Like to Give Everyone a Chance to be Clear.

I have been seeing a higher level of dishonesty here than ever before on DU. That includes the '08 primaries. I'm not whining about DU, it's a fine place with plenty of fine people. The thing is that we've crossed a line too many times and that lowers us.

I know that I come down more on one side of this issue than the other. I know that I'm going to be roundly and unreasonably lambasted for speaking my mind... as usual. I accept that as part of discourse, but the level of dishonesty that goes with it is very disheartening and robs me of my faith in what should otherwise be a body of intelligent and thoughtful individuals.

First, I'll address the Obama supporters:

Yes, I'm with you. We will have two viable choices for President and anyone who says otherwise is not living in reality. I've heard that we are 'authoritarian' and in pursuit of censorship. I have not seen direct examples of this, but I'd like to make something perfectly, abundantly, and crystal clear: Telling people that they shall not criticize the President is NEVER appropriate. To quote Roosevelt:

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

Again, I honestly have not seen examples of people telling Obama's critics that they are not allowed to voice their opinions, but that does not mean such examples do not exist. Therefore I will say without reservation that to state anything of the sort is reprehensible. It also plays into the contrived narrative that Obama supporters are 'authoritarian' and 'intolerant'.

To be an Obama supporter means listening to criticism, understanding it, expanding on the context where possible, or admitting to the faults or failures where they have no reasonable explanation.

It is dishonest to deal with criticism otherwise.

But speaking of 'dishonesty'...

This has become something of a problem lately among many that are highly critical of Obama. It has been made very, very clear that taking exception to criticism is intolerable to many who wish to air their outrage over Obama, his administration, and the policies that the two have enacted. This intolerance should have no place in discourse.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: If you choose to be critical of Obama on a Democratic discussion board, expect people to take exception to that criticism. We Get It: You Don't Like Your Criticism of Obama Being Challenged. Now this aversion to criticism of Obama being challenged wouldn't be an issue at all if it weren't for the way it is so often handled:

Dishonestly.

This is very telling. It means that Obama's critics (not all of them, of course, but there are plenty) want to shut down any challenge to their criticism by deliberately mischaracterizing it as 'authoritarian', 'censorship', or otherwise impertinent to the criticism itself. Unless you are actually told that you should shut up, that you have to 'fall in line', that you must vote for Obama, or that you are 'with us or against us', to claim anyone has instructed you so is a LIE.

It's very, very simple: Do NOT substitute your own meanings or the voices in your head for what is actually written in black and white (or whatever color scheme you use) on the screen in front of you.

This is one of the most poisonous practices in discourse these days. It is exactly how Fox 'News' and Rush who-is-not-necessarily-a-sex-tourist Limbaugh program their brainwashed audience. It is uncivil, impolite, and ultimately dishonest to pretend someone has said what they did not. We are all guilty of this at some level, but those of us who are aware of it have the responsibility to keep it in check.

IF you are not certain what someone's intentions are from a given post, then ask them a simple yes/no question such as: "Are you telling me to stop criticizing Obama?"

That way they have an opportunity to clarify their intentions and discussion can continue on without devolving into a kindergarden playground fight.

Too many times people have made such claims about my own posts or those of other DUers without a single shred of evidence. We know why; it is because engaging in earnest on the nitty-gritty of the issues can be work and it's so much easier to end the exchange and walk away feeling righteous by lying about the other poster's intentions.

Let me be perfectly clear, again; To resort to such a tactic is both transparent and childish. I know that many people don't want to hear that and will likely throw a tantrum about it, but I would like to think we're all adults and anyone who reflects on their use of this tactic will eschew it from here on out.

As for the way many see the criticism of Obama here, I have another quote from Roosevelt:

"Criticism is necessary and useful; it is often indispensable; but it can never take the place of action, or be even a poor substitute for it. The function of the mere critic is of very subordinate usefulness. It is the doer of deeds who actually counts in the battle for life, and not the man who looks on and says how the fight ought to be fought, without himself sharing the stress and the danger."

Many DUers are currently and actively fighting to wrest the nation out of the hands of corporate avarice and public corruption. The installment of another Republican will set that fight back another decade or more and increase our struggle as a nation. They see abject criticism of Obama as a failure to recognize that although he is not the savior we are all desperate for, he is the best possible option for us at this point in time. They have the attitude that those who refuse to help keep up the fight and keep him in office are only getting in the way and making the fight to restore the US to The People more difficult.

If that is not you, fine. If it is, then please contemplate the above and take seriously those who wish to keep the White House in Democratic hands until the fight is won.

Here is my pledge:

[font color=blue]I am an Obama supporter,

I am aware that he is not perfect, and although I believe he has good reasons for most, if not all, of the policies he enacts, the bills he signs, the people he appoints, and the decisions he makes, I recognize that criticism of those is often valid. It is for this reason that I shall not ever tell any of his critics on DU to 'shut up' or instruct them who they must vote for. I will endeavor to listen to their honest criticism and do the work of discovery to determine the validity of that criticism before dismissing it out of hand. I understand that there will be differences of opinion on whether a criticism is valid and will do my best to recognize the point of impasse. It is at this point I may make such an observation, but I will still maintain the other poster's right to voice their opinion. I will do my best to be polite, but even failing that I will not mischaracterize a critic's position absent of evidence and reasoned facts.
Also: I will save any lectures on the foolishness of not voting for Obama only for those who have explicitly stated that they refuse to vote for him. If I am uncertain of a person's position on this matter, I will simply ask them before making such a judgment.
I make this pledge in the understanding that if we are to effect change in this nation, we must do so with our eyes and minds wide open, and we must do it together.
[/font]

To the best of my knowledge, I have not violated my above pledge. If anyone wishes to accuse me of doing so, then you have my express permission to retrieve any direct quote by me that does so in exchange for an apology. Naturally, I will construe any accusation absent such a quote as a lie.

I believe discourse on DU would be well-served if Obama's critics were to make a pledge recognizing that this is a Democratic site where they can expect reaction to criticism, and not to characterize that critism as 'authoritarian' or 'censorship' where such characterization is not merited. But I won't be the one to write such a pledge.

I'll leave that up to you.

188 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Ooooo....A "Pledge".....how , how republican ! comipinko Dec 2011 #1
So a thoughtful pledge to be reasonable is 'Republican'? The Doctor. Dec 2011 #3
"pledges" only deter actual thought. Yup, very republican. comipinko Dec 2011 #7
I just tried to tell my wife that the pledges we made when we got married ... JoePhilly Dec 2011 #101
MRS. JoePhilly IS MY KIND OF GAL Skittles Dec 2011 #166
NEVER, NEVER ... mess with Mrs. JoePhily ... trust me. JoePhilly Dec 2011 #176
You're lucky she didn't put any grits in there for you Hutzpa Dec 2011 #181
Pledges stiffle? Is that because of the pledge or because the pledgee took viagra? nt stevenleser Dec 2011 #104
Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #105
It also occurs to me that you must believe all physicians are 'Republican'. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #9
Your silly pledge can not be compared as you have done. comipinko Dec 2011 #11
How disappointing. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #14
Now you resort to personal attacks?? comipinko Dec 2011 #23
What personal attack? The Doctor. Dec 2011 #26
Typical. comipinko Dec 2011 #33
This really is amusing. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #43
While I fully support your pledge Aerows Dec 2011 #69
I am laughing because i_sometimes Dec 2011 #49
That was hardly a personal attack. emcguffie Dec 2011 #112
I took a pledge to my cat snooper2 Dec 2011 #59
So you think you can speak for all "good Democrats"? pnwmom Dec 2011 #86
I will join you in that pledge. polmaven Dec 2011 #2
You'd think it wouldn't be necessary. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #4
Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #12
Wow. I could not have asked for a better example of thoughtless belligerence. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #16
Take two aspirin and call me in the morning! comipinko Dec 2011 #20
Yep. That's the stuff. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #25
Again, it breaks it's own pledge. comipinko Dec 2011 #29
Again, "How?" The Doctor. Dec 2011 #44
Where is a pledge weak minded? Sheepshank Dec 2011 #109
You are calling a poster "thoughtlessly belligerent"? Is that within community rhett o rick Dec 2011 #106
I am NOT overly critical of President Obama Dorian Gray Dec 2011 #31
you noticed that , too? comipinko Dec 2011 #35
Post the pertinent excerpt. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #39
"Those like you." Dorian Gray Dec 2011 #89
So what you're saying is that it's wrong to point out when someone is lying. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #93
Okay... Dorian Gray Dec 2011 #164
Do you honestly not see that -- emcguffie Dec 2011 #114
My thoughts exactly. Old and In the Way Dec 2011 #151
No, I saw that Dorian Gray Dec 2011 #165
Pass Sherman A1 Dec 2011 #5
Applause. Major Cheers. n/t Yo_Mama Dec 2011 #6
This message was self-deleted by its author seaglass Dec 2011 #8
And when it is, it should be pointed out. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #10
Have you read "Catch 22"?? Lately? comipinko Dec 2011 #13
+1 It feels like bullying to me. tblue Dec 2011 #97
I pledge to speak freely. UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2011 #15
+1 pintobean Dec 2011 #17
Now THERE is a pledge !! LOL comipinko Dec 2011 #21
+1 andlor Dec 2011 #162
a pledge? piratefish08 Dec 2011 #18
Take the damn pledge. comipinko Dec 2011 #22
K&R quinnox Dec 2011 #19
It's very interesting to see The Doctor. Dec 2011 #24
Civil discourse? pintobean Dec 2011 #27
Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #30
CRASH goes the "pledge" comipinko Dec 2011 #37
Reading comprehension fail. pintobean Dec 2011 #38
Given that it's the same set of readers The Doctor. Dec 2011 #51
What? Seriously? emcguffie Dec 2011 #116
i pledge to not commit to civil discourse regarding the taking of pledges. piratefish08 Dec 2011 #178
He can't answer you pintobean Dec 2011 #179
Ahh....so nice to see you again...massive wall of text... tjwash Dec 2011 #28
Keep smokin'. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #32
Again with the personal attacks. comipinko Dec 2011 #40
So, you are suggesting the post to which he was responding is...? emcguffie Dec 2011 #118
Wow. Bluenorthwest May 2012 #184
Nope, because I'm not an Obama supporter...third party... joeybee12 Dec 2011 #34
.... i_sometimes Dec 2011 #36
Post it. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #41
Stop it. You're killing me. UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2011 #45
Amazing. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #47
Lol... i_sometimes Dec 2011 #48
Pick one. Post it. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #50
Huh? i_sometimes Dec 2011 #62
The request was in English. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #63
Nope... i_sometimes Dec 2011 #64
Bwhaahahahahaaaaa! The 'copycat game'??!? The Doctor. Dec 2011 #67
Try harder. i_sometimes Dec 2011 #70
I think I know why you found DU 'toxic'. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #76
Ah, no. i_sometimes Dec 2011 #91
Whatever excuse you need to avoid any kind of substantive discussion. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #94
So true. Union Scribe Dec 2011 #128
But you've said plenty, in your short little post. emcguffie Dec 2011 #120
Nope. Union Scribe Dec 2011 #129
I judge Obama on his actions, not on what he says in "black and white" print. Laelth Dec 2011 #42
Again I have to encourage someone to read for meaning: The Doctor. Dec 2011 #46
Sigh. I suspected you were asking for careful, literal readings. Laelth Dec 2011 #52
If that's too much to ask, then I am most certainly disappointed. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #56
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar? Fearless Dec 2011 #135
Mwen pral pran angajman an UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2011 #53
so anyone who criticizes obama is dishonest. aletier_v Dec 2011 #54
Illiterate liars suffering from paranoid schizophrenia pintobean Dec 2011 #57
You're being too hard on them. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #61
Another one who simply 'makes shit up'. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #58
Thanks you - and I agree bhikkhu Dec 2011 #55
Yes, and just look at all the examples in this thread. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #60
Yes, you are whining about DU. nt EFerrari Dec 2011 #65
By that standard, so is every post The Doctor. Dec 2011 #66
Whine: "To utter a plaintive, high-pitched, protracted sound... Fearless Dec 2011 #138
K & R Aerows Dec 2011 #68
Please read post 60 and reconsider that rec. Union Scribe Dec 2011 #72
It's just an interesting side effect. Not really much of a 'motive'. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #74
So, you've taken a pledge to insult the hell out of people. Union Scribe Dec 2011 #71
If you would bother to read it, you'll see that's not the point. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #73
Your OP and this entire conversation pscot Dec 2011 #78
What you're saying would have validity if I called anyone an 'idiot'. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #81
It was your 1st sentence pscot Dec 2011 #113
Jesus...that's a really fancy way to start a loyalty oath DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2011 #75
Wow, another one who doesn't bother to read or understand an OP. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #77
Just to watch the hypocrisy spew from your keyboard, in direct contradiction to your OP. DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2011 #80
Yet you can point to no such hypocrisy or contradictions. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #82
Run along. I believe we've concluded any useful discourse. DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2011 #83
It never began. But at least I tried. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #87
Yes, and you got all the material you were trolling for DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2011 #88
You mean the proof that so many The Doctor. Dec 2011 #90
Here are a couple of your posts that I believe push the community standards envelope. rhett o rick Dec 2011 #108
Good post, I appreciate it. I would like to emulatorloo Dec 2011 #79
What are we a Republican primary? TheKentuckian Dec 2011 #84
If DU is about seeing Democrats and getting Democrats elected, it can't be one big steady Obama or deacon Dec 2011 #85
Good point ... Getting Dems elected is the 2nd section of the DU ... JoePhilly Dec 2011 #99
Definetly. And that really defines the problem, a site identity crisis. n/t deacon Dec 2011 #139
I Pledge to remember to not be as full of myself A-Schwarzenegger Dec 2011 #92
Now you done it. UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2011 #95
Good for you. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #96
Yeesh. It's really getting weird around here Doctor_J Dec 2011 #98
What "Loyalty Oath"? The Doctor. Dec 2011 #102
Dear The Doctor, tblue Dec 2011 #100
K&R because of your good intentions. Zalatix Dec 2011 #103
Thanks Tblue and Zalatix. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #107
having read this entire thread eyewall Dec 2011 #110
Yet nothing specific to point to. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #125
Why are you right? Fearless Dec 2011 #136
Asking others to take take your solomn pledge sad sally Dec 2011 #111
Yeah, asking people to be honest and open is certainly a form of censorship. The Doctor. Dec 2011 #126
God you're an ass eyewall Dec 2011 #143
Does that mean you're not taking the pledge? A-Schwarzenegger Dec 2011 #144
Pledges? We don need no stinking pledges. eyewall Dec 2011 #147
Muy bueno. A-Schwarzenegger Dec 2011 #148
sounds reasonable - count me in, although I try to do those things all the time. nt cry baby Dec 2011 #115
No thank you. Texasgal Dec 2011 #117
Hey Doc... I take this pledge. vaberella Dec 2011 #119
Making an open committment to be *honest* and open The Doctor. Dec 2011 #127
Can you quote a specific instance where there has been... Fearless Dec 2011 #137
Grammar police here - "...affect change" not "...effect change" jimlup Dec 2011 #121
Actually, no. ChadwickHenryWard Dec 2011 #122
I didnt even know effect could be a verb. A-Schwarzenegger Dec 2011 #123
It can. I have an article on my grammar & usage site tblue37 Dec 2011 #134
Hey, thanks. A-Schwarzenegger Dec 2011 #141
You're welcome. nt tblue37 Dec 2011 #142
Gimmie the gist... Taverner Dec 2011 #124
Well this paragraph is very well said and I'd like to Maraya1969 Dec 2011 #130
I think democratic party has decided that the a-hole "independent" who voted for McCain scentopine Dec 2011 #131
A big +1 UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2011 #149
Let me put it more succinctly BanTheGOP Dec 2011 #132
You left something out. UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2011 #152
Maybe I just want my pony but... Fearless Dec 2011 #133
Wonderful. UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2011 #154
Funny stuff, but I'll decline. (nt) (nr) T S Justly Dec 2011 #140
Damn! jbpdx Dec 2011 #145
Nice idea but pass. ObaMania Dec 2011 #146
I have a suggestion MFrohike Dec 2011 #150
I pledge to never use the word "strawman" eyewall Dec 2011 #153
Well, UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2011 #155
My understanding MFrohike Dec 2011 #156
I see what you're saying. UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2011 #159
Actually, you're right MFrohike Dec 2011 #180
Nice try Doc. Old and In the Way Dec 2011 #157
I am not an Obama supporter Martin Eden Dec 2011 #158
Mission Impossible tatfreak79 Dec 2011 #160
Damn, I miss the "unrec" feature. Jokerman Dec 2011 #161
Grover . . .is that you? Vinca Dec 2011 #163
I PLEDGE TO SAY IT LIKE IT IS Skittles Dec 2011 #167
Sorry I missed this one yesterday. Bolo Boffin Dec 2011 #168
Are you saying the voices in my head are telling me you think I'm a liar? hootinholler Dec 2011 #169
Don't sweat it, hoot. I got the key. pintobean Dec 2011 #171
I was wondering how the OP could hear my voices. n/t hootinholler Dec 2011 #173
. pintobean Dec 2011 #174
They don't like eavesdroppers hootinholler Dec 2011 #175
Only read the first few responses of clusterfuck replies JNelson6563 Dec 2011 #170
I think he got the reaction he was looking for. pintobean Dec 2011 #172
Yes, especially coming from i_sometimes Dec 2011 #177
That presupposes the OP is correct. Fearless Dec 2011 #182
Bumpsky UnrepentantLiberal May 2012 #183
You're a very silly man. UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2012 #185
Pledges are either for holding or breaking liberal N proud Dec 2012 #186
This message was self-deleted by its author intaglio Dec 2012 #187
I wish I had so much time on my hands obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #188
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