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Hekate

(89,974 posts)
64. Steven, the artificial placenta takes us to an interesting excursion into bioethics...
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 03:24 PM
Sep 2013

However, I think some of those issues are already being settled by the existence of surrogacy, if you think about it. Married couples have been doing this for some time, in cases where the wife has been unable to carry a child to term herself -- perhaps she has ovaries but no uterus, for instance, or some other medical condition. Gay couples also now have that option. (Michael Jackson himself became a father by hiring surrogate mothers, and there seems to be considerable doubt that any of his children were biologically his, by design.) A man who wants to become a father by himself has the option of hiring a surrogate, just as a woman who wants to become a mother by herself has the option of visiting a sperm bank -- Neither imposes parenthood on an unwilling partner, and each personally takes on the attendant immediate costs, risks, and the lifelong crapshoot that is parenting, and I wish them all the best. A baby wanted that much is off to a good start.

The biggest question such couples have is what to do with the leftover frozen zygotes. They are emotionally and financially invested in their creation, but really -- a dozen or two dozen invisible zygotes waiting in the wings? I think the law in the UK is to store them for only so many years and then bye-bye, which at least removes the burden of decision from the couples involved. That's probably the way to go.

Which brings me to the "viability" you brought up regarding life at the farthest reaches of conception. My instinct is to say: don't go there (see above), but I'll work on being more nuanced. What I have is essentially a spiritual point of view regarding women, but the science is this: every month the menses of uncounted women wash away fertilized ova, anywhere from a few days to several weeks along. Literally countless ova are fertilized that don't implant themselves. (Sometimes the hormonal changes show up on an over-the-counter pregnancy test for awhile, and then the woman gets her period anyway. That's why.) Then there are the ones that do implant, but don't stay -- a very early miscarriage or a late period depending, and this is important, on your point of view. My mother used to say: Sometimes Mother Nature makes a mistake, and that's how She corrects it -- meaning, there was something inherently wrong, a lethal defect. Trying to make this about evil intent on the part of the woman (see: proposed laws regarding the criminalization of miscarriages) is just wrong.

A zygote or a fetus is not a parasite, nor is it entitled to full personhood; it is a genetic blueprint of what might become. In understanding that and in acknowledging that real people have feelings about that, we can try to come to a better understanding of each other. There is a spiritual dimension to those feelings for most women, whether they can give voice to them or not.

Legally, though, we need to stick with Roe vs. Wade, which was based on a common societal understanding that in fact goes back to the dawn of time in nearly every culture and religion: the first three months are entirely in the woman's domain (nonviable, doesn't have any of the necessary capacities to live outside the womb, used to be women didn't even tell anyone in case it didn't continue, and if she doesn't think she can take care of it for any reason going forward, she should be able to safely terminate).

The second three months it still is not viable -- and even though prenatal science has pushed the boundaries to save miscarried babies, on the whole they are not very healthy going forward, despite hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on hospitalization -- The woman should still have the choice not to have motherhood imposed on her. Abortion, however, becomes more dangerous for the mother, and it should be in a clinical setting. It's a nonviable fetus. Roe allows some restrictions, but life and health of the mother are paramount, as well as fatal defect of the fetus.

The third trimester is where it gets tricky, because it looks like a baby, has developed most of what it needs, and with medical intervention most can survive a premature birth now. It's "viable." That's where Roe placed most of its restrictions, and this is where most of the anti-choice hysteria centers. The restrictions in place seem sensible to most of us, because abortion at this stage is dangerous to the mother and the baby looks like -- well, a baby. Nonetheless, the necessity remains: we still need an exception for the life and health of the mother, and we still need an exception for fatal birth defects like anencephaly. Those are real issues. No one gets to that stage of pregnancy and wakes up one morning and puts "abortion" on her to-do list.

None of this is to deny the sorrow of infertile couples (some of whom may be helped by your hypothetical artificial placenta) -- which brings me to the spiritual dimension of intention. A wanted pregnancy is an intention. Just as the zygote is a genetic blueprint for what might become, becoming (or choosing to remain) pregnant because you want to is an intention to live a certain way. It doesn't mean anything will turn out the way you meant it to (see "crapshoot" above) but it does mean you willingly take it on as a free choice made by a free human being. Actually, you don't have to see that as spiritual at all, but it helps if others can comprehend that some of us do -- and that in our religious concepts, free will has a big place.

Didn't mean to go on at such length, but when Hekate revisits Demeter, sometimes a lot comes up.

Hekate

it's the woman's decision Skittles Sep 2013 #1
YES INDEED bettyellen Sep 2013 #4
Only the woman can make this decision newfie11 Sep 2013 #11
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2013 #25
Of course it's okay for the woman to do just that. Sheldon Cooper Sep 2013 #26
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2013 #28
She didn't tell you how to feel. smokey nj Sep 2013 #33
You'll no doubt be astonished to learn that I am in fact a woman. Sheldon Cooper Sep 2013 #34
No, that's not the end of the story. The OP also asks whether society pnwmom Sep 2013 #36
Correct Ohio Joe Sep 2013 #50
agreed 100% steve2470 Sep 2013 #72
Four words...HER CHOICE....NOT MINE. shraby Sep 2013 #2
easy bettyellen Sep 2013 #3
It's the woman's choice. Lugnut Sep 2013 #5
I agree. I am 100% pro choice. n/t RebelOne Sep 2013 #55
Interesting questions. Summer Hathaway Sep 2013 #6
What "government class" would that be? Taught by "the government" or about how government works? Hekate Sep 2013 #7
Me too. djean111 Sep 2013 #9
no sh** Skittles Sep 2013 #12
Perhaps I'm not paranoid enough to know what you're asking... Gov101 Sep 2013 #38
I hope you check back for the answers you've provoked. It's not "paranoia": we get trolls Hekate Sep 2013 #45
Answers: petronius Sep 2013 #8
If your're not the one who is pregnant, SheilaT Sep 2013 #10
love your response blueamy66 Sep 2013 #17
I'm not getting it. Mushroom Sep 2013 #13
How complete strangers deal with unwanted pregnancies is none of my concern. Frankly, smokey nj Sep 2013 #14
If this is for a class assignment deutsey Sep 2013 #15
A, B and C blueamy66 Sep 2013 #16
I read your profile and journal, and I wanted to say I am sorry LiberalLoner Sep 2013 #18
I can think of some big limitations for A Nevernose Sep 2013 #19
If the state can prevent a woman from determining what to do (or not to do) with her pregnancy Proud Liberal Dem Sep 2013 #20
+1 and because social pressures exist to push women away from LiberalLoner Sep 2013 #22
Right Proud Liberal Dem Sep 2013 #24
+1! LiberalLoner Sep 2013 #41
Once the child is born she has rights too me b zola Sep 2013 #48
I agree with this, certainly! I was the product of an affair outside the marriage and LiberalLoner Sep 2013 #51
. LWolf Sep 2013 #21
The individual woman decides. That's it. MineralMan Sep 2013 #23
First, you gather the men folk all together ... JoePhilly Sep 2013 #27
As a woman myself... one who has had unintended pregnancies..... ejpoeta Sep 2013 #29
I agree with that. Woman's choice and only woman's choice until viability. (Edited to answer quests) stevenleser Sep 2013 #31
I think you should consider carefully the enlightenment Sep 2013 #39
I disagree completely. This is a debate I have had a few times with people. stevenleser Sep 2013 #43
You're right. We disagree. enlightenment Sep 2013 #46
Yes, we disagree. I don't think the appeals courts will agree with your interpretations. stevenleser Sep 2013 #47
Good thing I never said they would. enlightenment Sep 2013 #58
I agree to a point LostOne4Ever Sep 2013 #57
It would be very interesting to see what would happen regarding you last point which is right on. stevenleser Sep 2013 #60
Steven, the artificial placenta takes us to an interesting excursion into bioethics... Hekate Sep 2013 #64
At work so I will have to read this later to give it the attention it deserves... nt stevenleser Sep 2013 #66
You're the only one here besides me who answered the second question. pnwmom Sep 2013 #42
Yep, a few more after us did since then... stevenleser Sep 2013 #44
Question, do you know of any doctors who perform abortions on viable fetuses... Hippo_Tron Sep 2013 #75
I am not saying it happens. I am saying that until the fetus can survive outside the womb, ejpoeta Sep 2013 #86
None, no, no Major Nikon Sep 2013 #30
It's a woman's choice. That's all. Autumn Sep 2013 #32
Answers: JaneyVee Sep 2013 #35
Woman's choice, between her and doctor. Lars39 Sep 2013 #37
I find the term "reproductive politics" REPULSIVE, not stale. Avalux Sep 2013 #40
Three answers. lapislzi Sep 2013 #49
^ ^ Agree with this ^ ^ but would add: Arugula Latte Sep 2013 #52
P.S.: Men who oppose a woman's right to abortion can simply go fuck themselves. Arugula Latte Sep 2013 #53
What you said, x 2 lapislzi Sep 2013 #54
Three related questions LostOne4Ever Sep 2013 #56
100% the woman's decision. Blue_In_AK Sep 2013 #59
Wow--I haven't seen a double post since DU2!!! MADem Sep 2013 #61
Not your uterus? Not your business. MADem Sep 2013 #62
I believe there should be ZERO restrictions on abortion. None. Nada. PeaceNikki Sep 2013 #63
Blackmun got it right. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2013 #65
Morality? Raffi Ella Sep 2013 #67
Frankly, none of that is relevant. Gov101 Sep 2013 #68
And you're their teacher and allowed the morality question, got it. Raffi Ella Sep 2013 #70
Funny how your comments are replete with moral assumptions. I assume you realize this? Gov101 Sep 2013 #80
lol. Raffi Ella Sep 2013 #82
On both boards I responded to accusations that the questions were biased, for opposite reasons. Gov101 Sep 2013 #83
^^^^^^^^^^!!!!!!! Precisely Sep 2013 #69
Thanks for the support~ Raffi Ella Sep 2013 #77
So well put Precisely Sep 2013 #79
It's the woman's private decision and not for anyone to limit or to judge. n/t cynatnite Sep 2013 #71
WOW...since we tried to have a conversation with you in previous posts of yours and... Tikki Sep 2013 #73
Thanks for letting us know that Hekate Sep 2013 #84
none, yes, and no elehhhhna Sep 2013 #74
When said woman will be expelled from her Christian college if she gets pregnant. Been there done jwirr Sep 2013 #76
happy that students are seriously discussing this handmade34 Sep 2013 #78
As long as I'm not paying for anything, its not my business marshall Sep 2013 #81
Bodily Autonomy Lancero Sep 2013 #85
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