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jeff47

(26,549 posts)
43. Which option should Truman have taken?
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 10:19 PM
Aug 2013

Option 1: Demonstration on uninhabited island

The premise is that the Japanese would agree to surrender if they knew the power of these weapons - the threat that we would use them against their cities would make them surrender.

The huge problem here is when we actually did use nuke against Hiroshima, they did not surrender. So why would they have surrendered due to a threat when carrying out that threat did not cause them to surrender?

Option 2: Invade

The invasion would have taken 2 years, and killed 1M allied troops, as well as 10-50M Japanese, mostly civilians. The wide range of that estimate is we don't really know what the civilians would have done. Virtually all the civilians on Okinawa either attacked US troops or committed suicide. It's reasonable to believe that a very large portion of the 78M Japanese in the home islands would do the same.

So that route would kill many, many more civilians than the nukes.

Option 3: Wait out the blockade

This option sounds nice and sterile. But that's due to careful word choice. This is really "win via famine". And that famine would again fall mostly on the civilian population. Making it a poor choice if your goal was to protect civilians. Unless you think it's somehow OK to cause civilians to starve do death, but not OK to directly kill them.

Option 4: Weren't the Japanese about to surrender anyway?

Nope. The "Big 6" were running the Japanese government and war effort. Before the Hiroshima blast, only 1 of the 6 was interested in surrender. The remaining 5 felt that they should engineer a massive number of casualties, on both sides, so that the US would give up on invading. It worked in the war with Russia 40 years earlier, so they felt they could do it again. Even after the two nukes, the "Big 6" were split 3-3 on surrender.

The problem here is the US wouldn't have just given up. We'd have gone with the "Invasion" option above and killed about 40M civilians.

So which option would you have used instead? And how is killing far more civilians via that option better than nukes?

Only a terrorist would think it justified usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #1
+1 RedCappedBandit Aug 2013 #3
replace terrorist with 'radical' pasto76 Aug 2013 #27
"tactical nuclear weapon systems" white_wolf Aug 2013 #57
Come on! Dubya's heart was in the right place... damyank913 Aug 2013 #97
Never. JaneyVee Aug 2013 #2
Never. Ed Suspicious Aug 2013 #4
Excellent post. Yup, they are all just lame excuses quinnox Aug 2013 #5
Only if we're overrun by zombies. rug Aug 2013 #6
If we see them coming, and screaming "We want Brains" (via Telescope)..I'll push the damn button. BlueJazz Aug 2013 #23
Hell, I'll find everyone named Otis and throw them at them. rug Aug 2013 #24
Don't let a few bad apples put us all in a bad light. ZombieHorde Aug 2013 #60
I get that, it is a form of extreme friendliness. Dragonfli Aug 2013 #67
OK..OK...it's..it's not the brain-eating and stuff...I mean, I'm having a problem here. It's hard... BlueJazz Aug 2013 #71
Boundaries quakerboy Aug 2013 #79
Never leftstreet Aug 2013 #7
Anytime it's profitable, of course. PETRUS Aug 2013 #8
I was going to ask, "Can you make money off it?" nt OnyxCollie Aug 2013 #51
None. eom TransitJohn Aug 2013 #9
Our government and military's use of depleted uranium is a truedelphi Aug 2013 #10
No. Fantastic Anarchist Aug 2013 #17
I am aware of the things you are bringing up. truedelphi Aug 2013 #70
No, again. Fantastic Anarchist Aug 2013 #81
I was not at all mocking any such world. truedelphi Aug 2013 #98
Under no circumstance malaise Aug 2013 #11
You don't have to use nukes to kill a great many civilians. Fumesucker Aug 2013 #12
No shaayecanaan Aug 2013 #40
Great post. Fantastic Anarchist Aug 2013 #13
It is never justifiable to use sarisataka Aug 2013 #14
Justification is determined by ... oldhippie Aug 2013 #15
I think this is wankerism. lumberjack_jeff Aug 2013 #16
So there was a grace period? shaayecanaan Aug 2013 #42
Entitled is your word lumberjack_jeff Aug 2013 #53
You could say the same about my murdering Fred... shaayecanaan Aug 2013 #68
Think how many could be saved if we murdered all the Freds in two cities! You're onta sumpin! Dragonfli Aug 2013 #76
Carl has turned . . . another_liberal Aug 2013 #91
"The matter of time" before Fred was going to sideswipe the school bus was "immediately". lumberjack_jeff Aug 2013 #77
I keep getting posts hidden for pointing out that the lack of empathy required Dragonfli Aug 2013 #18
DU is overrun by RWers pretending to be Democrats. Sort of like the kestrel91316 Aug 2013 #20
For what it's worth, I've always liked you. BlueJazz Aug 2013 #25
Thanks! you liking me is more important than dozens that appear to hate me Dragonfli Aug 2013 #28
thank you for sharing your thoughts on this topic usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #26
I like your posts. They reveal principles and integrity Dragonfli Aug 2013 #33
Don't give up Hydra Aug 2013 #36
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2013 #49
A shame snort Aug 2013 #37
Which option should Truman have taken? jeff47 Aug 2013 #43
Well I suppose we could kill all civilians, that would be in line with the theory that atrocities Dragonfli Aug 2013 #63
It's a lovely post. Unfortunately, it also completely ignores what your choices mean. jeff47 Aug 2013 #69
Oh, I get it! YOU are a five star general expertly versed in WWII strategy Dragonfli Aug 2013 #73
Again, you are pretending that there were options which were not actually present. jeff47 Aug 2013 #86
for the record, I DO NOT keep saying "the US should have killed millions of civilians Dragonfli Aug 2013 #93
You're just as lacking empathy with the Americans who would have/were killed treestar Aug 2013 #88
The Japanese and Germans agreed with you, they felt winning by any means necessary (even atrocities) Dragonfli Aug 2013 #89
Now you're just being unreasonable treestar Aug 2013 #92
You must kill children to save children? Dragonfli Aug 2013 #94
Never. nt. polly7 Aug 2013 #19
Never. 99Forever Aug 2013 #21
Never again. In WWII the first country to have achieved the technology PufPuf23 Aug 2013 #22
In WWII the first country to have achieved the technology snort Aug 2013 #38
Correct answer. joshcryer Aug 2013 #44
Never... Tien1985 Aug 2013 #29
Never, ever, ever... japple Aug 2013 #30
If you imagine that your daddy could have been hurt Blecht Aug 2013 #31
Never. bravenak Aug 2013 #32
If an invasion would kill more civilians Recursion Aug 2013 #34
I'm way ahead of you. snort Aug 2013 #35
Never never ever! tblue Aug 2013 #39
Excellent post Marrah_G Aug 2013 #41
As horrible as nuclear weapons are . . . MrModerate Aug 2013 #45
A story my dad told me: mick063 Aug 2013 #46
When it kills fewer civilians than the other options. jeff47 Aug 2013 #47
But where there Military targets there? Savannahmann Aug 2013 #48
when heaven05 Aug 2013 #50
Only one possibly justifiable use Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #52
It would mean a war crimes prosecution for anyone who ordered the attack. another_liberal Aug 2013 #54
Lol, wow... Phillyindy Aug 2013 #55
I would say... bobclark86 Aug 2013 #56
Only at the end of WW2 before any history of nuclear confrontation existed... Deep13 Aug 2013 #58
I can't justify it. nt arely staircase Aug 2013 #59
If in possession of a time machine Nevernose Aug 2013 #61
You're right, and by your logic... Phillyindy Aug 2013 #66
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2013 #80
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2013 #84
I hate war, and I love this OP. ZombieHorde Aug 2013 #62
conventional bombing raids often killed more in an evening markiv Aug 2013 #64
If they have stuff we want and they won't let us have it for less than nothing n/t dogknob Aug 2013 #65
I can't think of any HappyMe Aug 2013 #72
the difference between a WWII soldier and a civilian markiv Aug 2013 #74
It is easy to find the amswer to that now. Not so much in 1945. prefunk Aug 2013 #75
Why? AmyStrange Aug 2013 #78
never. HiPointDem Aug 2013 #82
Hold on, let me ask the NSA. How about it guys? nt bluedeathray Aug 2013 #83
"Gee, I wish we had one of them doomsday machines." kentauros Aug 2013 #85
Never. LWolf Aug 2013 #87
Under what circumstances is it justifiable to use a drone against civilians? hobbit709 Aug 2013 #90
Your mind is already made up. Bake Aug 2013 #95
What constitutes a Civilian vs other target? One_Life_To_Give Aug 2013 #96
Do you think that it is legitimate to bomb Wall Street? shaayecanaan Aug 2013 #99
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