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In reply to the discussion: From the Miami Herald: [View all]
From the Miami Herald: [View all] kentuck Jul 2013 OP
One thing they can add... trumad Jul 2013 #1
+1000 mountain grammy Jul 2013 #49
Add the reason the man didn't identify himself as neighborhood watch displacedtexan Jul 2013 #160
21 facts. Nice additional fact. marble falls Jul 2013 #278
That sums it up. baldguy Jul 2013 #2
Very simplistic. I think some of those items were disputed, so not "undisputed evidence". Egalitariat Jul 2013 #3
Which of the items do you feel is disputed? I've been following the trial fairly closely, and ... 11 Bravo Jul 2013 #5
16. There is no evidence that the teen was committing a crime or about to commit any crime. dkf Jul 2013 #8
There is no evidence Martin was about to commit assault intheflow Jul 2013 #10
No evidence Zimmerman initiated anything or entered his area. dkf Jul 2013 #11
Zimmerman got out of his car. intheflow Jul 2013 #13
That was perfectly legal. dkf Jul 2013 #23
It is perfectly legal for Martin to punch him in the nose under these circumstances. reusrename Jul 2013 #136
Nope. Punching someone is not legal. dkf Jul 2013 #139
Yes it is WovenGems Jul 2013 #179
If John Glenn said he went to the moon, he would indeed be a liar... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #293
but shooting someone is? frylock Jul 2013 #212
Right. Logic twisted like a pretzel. Ed Suspicious Jul 2013 #283
Judges often will say someone brought a fight on themselves and deserved injury. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #222
Sure it is. He has every right to defend himself. reusrename Jul 2013 #235
The string on Trayvon's sweatshirt was pulled all the way out on one side... Tx4obama Jul 2013 #239
I agree that it was perfectly legal but ... spin Jul 2013 #140
I agree completely. But you can't convict Z for acting foolishly, if that is not the law. dkf Jul 2013 #144
Once again I also agree. ... spin Jul 2013 #149
Yes the law is what it is. dkf Jul 2013 #151
may I ask Skittles Jul 2013 #228
I have often thought that it was quite possible that Zimmerman approached Martin ... spin Jul 2013 #248
As far as I'm concerned caseymoz Jul 2013 #255
Zimmerman was not legally obligated to follow the advise of the dispatcher. ... spin Jul 2013 #256
No, that wouldn't follow. caseymoz Jul 2013 #275
How do you know exactly what happened that night? ... spin Jul 2013 #280
How many times do I need to say this? caseymoz Jul 2013 #285
Your opinion is not the law. ... spin Jul 2013 #288
That's the law? The law's bullshit. caseymoz Jul 2013 #294
Organize with others and change the law if you can... spin Jul 2013 #297
there is no doubt Zimmerman's actions led to the death of an innocent teenager Skittles Jul 2013 #262
That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Apparently the jury agreed with me ... spin Jul 2013 #272
Once the defense asserts "Self Defense" they have admitted the fact of the killing and the burden Vincardog Jul 2013 #247
In that case I think the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that ... spin Jul 2013 #249
Just a warning, Legal Insurrection = right wing blog alp227 Jul 2013 #259
Good catch. I didn't notice that. Thanks. (n/t) spin Jul 2013 #301
I believe your link disagrees with you on where the burden of proof lays Vincardog Jul 2013 #298
zimmerman was the one forcing the issue brush Jul 2013 #166
He could have but he was stupid which isn't against the law. dkf Jul 2013 #168
yet you want to "convict" Martin for defending himself against someone acting foolishly? CatWoman Jul 2013 #188
why do Zimmerman defenders not consider that it was Trayvon fighting for his life? Skittles Jul 2013 #229
One of the problems that those who support Martin have is ... spin Jul 2013 #250
Trayvon would alive were it not for Zimmerman's IRRESPONSIBLE actions Skittles Jul 2013 #261
intercourse with animals is also perfectly LEGAL in several states.. frylock Jul 2013 #211
cant believe I will have to see that kind of arguments in DU. Sand Wind Jul 2013 #263
what about gay marriage? frylock Jul 2013 #264
And Martin was within his legal rights to defend himself intheflow Jul 2013 #258
Well, dkf, turns out you were absolutely correct about everything. classof56 Jul 2013 #287
I was hoping people would understand the law so they wouldn't expect too much. dkf Jul 2013 #295
Rolls eyes DonCoquixote Jul 2013 #14
Speculation on your part about wanting a fight. dkf Jul 2013 #24
If he didn't want a confrontation or fight, why did he get out of his car? Lex Jul 2013 #39
Unthinking desire to give 911 more info. But that's speculation on my part. dkf Jul 2013 #68
It's also pure hearsay that Trayvon initiated a fight. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #86
Pure speculation to say who initiated physical contact. No evidence either way. dkf Jul 2013 #91
agree. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #100
I think he did legitimately fear for his life. Someone certainly did and was screaming for help. dkf Jul 2013 #132
and from your point of view, how do you explain Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #202
Except for the girlfriend was on the line at that moment Quixote1818 Jul 2013 #126
She said Trayvon initiated the conversation: "He said, 'Why are you following me for?' dkf Jul 2013 #147
And if you were African American and regularly felt profiled how would you feel in this situation? Quixote1818 Jul 2013 #156
Pissed isn't good. Goes to possibility that TM threw the first punch. dkf Jul 2013 #158
I don't care if he did throw the first punch Quixote1818 Jul 2013 #175
Your version doesn't work well with the law. It won't help Z get convicted certainly. dkf Jul 2013 #177
Not according to what the lawer in the OP says. See here: Quixote1818 Jul 2013 #194
you heaven05 Jul 2013 #274
You seem to excuse the fact that he failed to identify himself as anyone other than... slor Jul 2013 #237
And then Jantel said Trayvon said: 'Get off of me, get off of me' n/t Tx4obama Jul 2013 #240
his past behavior proved otherwise DonCoquixote Jul 2013 #54
That makes no sense. dkf Jul 2013 #72
I don't think he had an intention to kill but he was prepared with his SYG education just in case. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #89
This is NOT unusual.... socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #96
That is pure speculation. There is no EVIDENCE that substantiates your belief. dkf Jul 2013 #99
I've had 30+ years training in and training .... socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #105
Zimmerman was the one who started the confrontation - no evidence. dkf Jul 2013 #138
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2013 #204
good point about the gun-- hadn't heard that before-- seems pretty damning NoMoreWarNow Jul 2013 #232
They were his backup. He got out of his car to follow Martin... Caroline-Vivienne Jul 2013 #134
That was his training. He was supposed to do that. gristy Jul 2013 #60
BS. Neighborhood watch people brush Jul 2013 #173
Unfortunately Chico Man Jul 2013 #221
This message was self-deleted by its author Politicub Jul 2013 #64
Seriously? Chico Man Jul 2013 #85
You're right. I self-deleted Politicub Jul 2013 #119
For the same reason Raul Rodriguez in Texas videotaped himself saying ET Awful Jul 2013 #122
Yes, exactly. gristy Jul 2013 #243
Pls stop making excuses for an out of control wannabe brush Jul 2013 #170
Leave us not forget that he also called the police on a 7 (SEVEN!), YEAR OLD CHILD Ecumenist Jul 2013 #251
There was no evidence that Z didn't assure Martin that he wasn't a perverted sexual predator either MrScorpio Jul 2013 #15
Relevance? dkf Jul 2013 #25
If some young person has some creepy looking adult following them around in the dark... MrScorpio Jul 2013 #41
Use your common sense Quixote1818 Jul 2013 #128
See that is more normal to me. Run home. Sounds like a plan. dkf Jul 2013 #135
And show the perv where your brother is with no parents there? Quixote1818 Jul 2013 #143
Nope. Get me in my house where I can lock the door. Then call the cops. dkf Jul 2013 #145
I have been followed by a road rage driver before Quixote1818 Jul 2013 #146
He is on foot so no he can't go to the police station. dkf Jul 2013 #150
So the perp knows where you live? DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #152
Rather stay out where you can be grabbed? Crazy. dkf Jul 2013 #154
Where is he suposed to go? Quixote1818 Jul 2013 #159
Why not go home? I don't get that. dkf Jul 2013 #161
We can go round and round Quixote1818 Jul 2013 #172
A prudent person would "lose" the perp and go home DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #163
There is a claim...that Martin damaged Zimmerman's nose and head. There is evidence that vanlassie Jul 2013 #16
Cut on knuckles and eye witness. dkf Jul 2013 #18
Doesn't matter who was on top, at worse Martin was fighting for his life Hoyt Jul 2013 #117
What ballistic tests? brush Jul 2013 #176
No the ballistic tests are hard evidence. dkf Jul 2013 #180
I'm saying that brush Jul 2013 #206
Trayvon had NO CUT on his KNUCKLES! He had a small cut on his index finger.. NOTHING Ecumenist Jul 2013 #252
evidence that zimmerman shot and killed an unarmed child. spanone Jul 2013 #21
After being injured and fearing for his life and body. dkf Jul 2013 #28
No evidence he was in fear for his life. He had a gun and he knew it. Lex Jul 2013 #44
he had a gun. he killed a kid. his fear was tempered by a killing machine. spanone Jul 2013 #53
No evidence Zimmerman initiated anything? burnodo Jul 2013 #35
Stalking is a specific legal term. This does not qualify. dkf Jul 2013 #45
because Zim was following him for no reason burnodo Jul 2013 #50
That's not the legal definition in Florida. dkf Jul 2013 #51
Save your keystrokes, when up is down, wrong is right, it's backward day, and you are wasting GoneFishin Jul 2013 #67
Florida Stalking Statute 784.048 Stalking; definitions; penalties.— 1monster Jul 2013 #174
There is evidence that Zimmerman's nose and head were damaged. MH1 Jul 2013 #36
Cut on hand. 2 Eyewitness accounts of one person on top of another. dkf Jul 2013 #42
Cut on hand could have come from the edge of the freakin' skittles bag. MH1 Jul 2013 #56
Did you miss John Goods testimony? dkf Jul 2013 #65
Any evidence Zimmerman didn't inflict his own injuries AFTER he shot Martin?? Ghost in the Machine Jul 2013 #82
that is not evidence. Zimmerman had some minor injuries. There is no evidence they were inflicted by Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #83
No independent evidence that Trayvon EVER laid a finger on Zimmerman. Only evidence 1monster Jul 2013 #165
What evidence that Martin damaged anything? No blood or swelling on his hands, jtuck004 Jul 2013 #205
Not even to the degree that the injuries would have needed a bandaid! tblue37 Jul 2013 #224
Actually there is no evidence that Martin damaged the back of Zimmerman's 'head' Tx4obama Jul 2013 #238
from the testimony...and Zimmerman's tapes... ewagner Jul 2013 #58
I would say so.... socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #115
What "evidence" that the teen committed assault? MH1 Jul 2013 #32
Injuries to Z. Evidence of injuries to nose and 6 contacts with ground. dkf Jul 2013 #37
The only unequivocal evidence that doesn't rely on defendant's testimony MH1 Jul 2013 #43
Unfortunately, all you've done is establish reasonable doubt onenote Jul 2013 #52
I read that it is the defense's responsibility to provide "affirmative defense" rather than MH1 Jul 2013 #63
What you read is wrong. onenote Jul 2013 #75
Ok, but that is still different than how some people here seem to be saying it. MH1 Jul 2013 #88
I think you are getting confused onenote Jul 2013 #106
I left out a word. Updated that sentence in the post. MH1 Jul 2013 #116
You're right to an extent...and.. ewagner Jul 2013 #153
The fact that self defense is included in the jury instructions means he has met the threshold dkf Jul 2013 #87
Clarification: "justifiable use of deadly force" by reasonable doubt MH1 Jul 2013 #104
This is based on his perception, not yours. dkf Jul 2013 #112
One more time. From the jury instructions, the "reasonable person" standard is clear: MH1 Jul 2013 #121
The prosecution made no assertions how Z could have avoided that danger at the time TM had pinned dkf Jul 2013 #142
You're excepting zimmerman's story of being pinned brush Jul 2013 #185
It corresponds with John Good's witness testimony. dkf Jul 2013 #187
Goods testimony was the opposite of the woman's testimony who said the one brush Jul 2013 #191
If the italicized words in your post had been added to the jury instructions onenote Jul 2013 #123
Sorry, a reasonable person has respect for human life. MH1 Jul 2013 #124
You are conflating two concepts onenote Jul 2013 #129
Right brush Jul 2013 #183
Zimmerman's Story Does Not Make Sense erpowers Jul 2013 #66
zimmerman is the one who claimed Martin assaulted him brush Jul 2013 #148
We have one person's story for that. Z could have banged his head by slipping and falling. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #245
If someone you do not know,follows you and grabs you, would you not "resist"? SoCalDem Jul 2013 #253
well heaven05 Jul 2013 #273
Oh, hello! 2ndAmForComputers Jul 2013 #286
How about the police told him not to follow? Chico Man Jul 2013 #26
#3 and #4 are in dispute hfojvt Jul 2013 #300
How does he get around the jury instruction re:self defense? dkf Jul 2013 #4
The one who should have been concerned about deadly force was Martin Fumesucker Jul 2013 #6
That's not what is in front of the jury. dkf Jul 2013 #7
I'm not arguing the law, I'm arguing reality Fumesucker Jul 2013 #9
Seems everyone who thinks Z is guilty is arguing "reality" and not the law. dkf Jul 2013 #20
" Doesn't any one want to discuss the law?" greiner3 Jul 2013 #40
Yeah I think that is what most are doing. They don't want to discuss the law because they wish it dkf Jul 2013 #93
It's not the law. It's dkf's interpretation of the law. 1monster Jul 2013 #181
Wrong he posted the jury instructions as ceonupe Jul 2013 #207
Depends on which post of his/hers you are referring to. I read many posts where s/he was 1monster Jul 2013 #208
Not with someone like you who tilts toward Zimmerman and cherry picks Politicub Jul 2013 #71
If everything about the two was reversed, I would be arguing the same thing. dkf Jul 2013 #80
If the roles were reversed we would have never heard of the case DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #155
That wouldn't be my fault. I could have judged this on the merits. dkf Jul 2013 #192
If everything was reversed brush Jul 2013 #189
Well I don't appreciate if that is so. dkf Jul 2013 #195
doesn't the law include using common sense when required? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #102
does that not work both ways? is the dead kid not allowed to defend himself? Civilization2 Jul 2013 #12
If TM were the one in court and Z was dead then yes, he could argue self defense. dkf Jul 2013 #19
This message was self-deleted by its author Kingofalldems Jul 2013 #27
Under Florida law, the right to stand your ground requires onenote Jul 2013 #57
Was it reasonable to assume imminent danger? mainstreetonce Jul 2013 #17
Why is unreasonable to think it would have continued? dkf Jul 2013 #22
please go outside to the sidewalk, find a stranger, Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #107
THANK YOU brush Jul 2013 #193
Is it clear beyond a reasonable doubt that it was unreasonable to assume danger? onenote Jul 2013 #59
Would I fear great bodily harm if I were straddled Chico Man Jul 2013 #79
"If" is the operable word brush Jul 2013 #197
Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't support Zimmerman onenote Jul 2013 #201
Did you leave out a word in your post? brush Jul 2013 #203
Yes I did. Corrected now. onenote Jul 2013 #209
in the context of undisputed facts + Zimmerman's fabulous story: YES. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #199
You are right except for one thing. 4 more years Jul 2013 #169
Easy, Ma'am: Zimmerman Lies, The 'Appearance Of Danger' Did Not Make Him Actually Fear For His Life The Magistrate Jul 2013 #90
Interesting, The Part You Leave Out, Ma'am.... The Magistrate Jul 2013 #94
Interesting, The Part You Leave Out, Redux, Ma'am... The Magistrate Jul 2013 #97
Why does it not surprise me that you're a Zimmerman defender Hugabear Jul 2013 #125
Second Degree Murder was John2 Jul 2013 #131
Did you read the portion on self defense? It negates both 2nd and manslaughter. dkf Jul 2013 #198
Did you John2 Jul 2013 #213
Couldn't just about every murderer who had a victim fight back claim "self defense"? cascadiance Jul 2013 #196
I don't agree (necessarily) with 12 and 14... Sancho Jul 2013 #29
that sounds like exactly what happened, or close. Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #111
That sounds more plausible than any explaination I've heard yet. 1monster Jul 2013 #184
This is dangerous from the Herald Chico Man Jul 2013 #30
He did break the John2 Jul 2013 #215
Right-o Chico Man Jul 2013 #218
Some random dude jumps you in the street and want to know what you are up to,. he is not a cop, no Civilization2 Jul 2013 #31
No evidence Z "jumped" TM. Pure speculation. dkf Jul 2013 #33
No evidence TM "jumped" Z either. Little Star Jul 2013 #46
True. No evidence who started the physical contact period. dkf Jul 2013 #47
You call it speculation I call it common sense. Little Star Jul 2013 #55
The prosecution must prove via evidence. You aren't supposed to use a guess to determine this. dkf Jul 2013 #81
Z was a LIAR. Therefore... Little Star Jul 2013 #92
Even if you discount his words the prosecution must prove their case with evidence. dkf Jul 2013 #95
Evidence based on lies is not acceptable evidence. Little Star Jul 2013 #98
The PROSECUTION must present evidence substantiating the claims. dkf Jul 2013 #103
Ummmmmmmmmmm, no it doesn't Iliyah Jul 2013 #109
Jury instructions... dkf Jul 2013 #118
Thanks for posting naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #178
Sorry but when there were only two actual witnesses and.. Little Star Jul 2013 #114
Falsus in unum, falsus in omnibus/nt DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #157
A disfavored principle of law isn't going to help your position onenote Jul 2013 #167
Bullshit. The guy who CHOSE not to stay in his car like he was instructed to GoneFishin Jul 2013 #73
He was already out of his car Chico Man Jul 2013 #76
So then Travon forced Zimmerman to get out of his car? GoneFishin Jul 2013 #101
Getting out of a car is not physical contact. onenote Jul 2013 #78
Tough crap. The pretzel logical contortions would not be needed if Zimmerman minded his own GoneFishin Jul 2013 #110
You are ignoring the law. That is not how it works, except in vigilante land. Ironic. dkf Jul 2013 #120
Are you a lawyer? John2 Jul 2013 #210
There is clear evidence Zimmerman John2 Jul 2013 #217
Self defense negates both 2nd degree and manslaughter. dkf Jul 2013 #220
Is there evidence Zimmerman "jumped" Trayvon? Chico Man Jul 2013 #38
This message was self-deleted by its author dkf Jul 2013 #48
I don't have any confidence in the outcome of this trial. Baitball Blogger Jul 2013 #34
Sadly, I agree with you. I am astonished by the posts here. Evergreen Emerald Jul 2013 #74
Sweetie, I tell my Iliyah Jul 2013 #84
I believe #10 has a mistake in it, if I heard the testimony right 1-Old-Man Jul 2013 #61
RW radio is consumed with this case underpants Jul 2013 #62
That fucking simple malaise Jul 2013 #69
+ Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #113
Fact Iliyah Jul 2013 #70
Could Zimmerman have slipped on the grass and hit the back of his head? Politicub Jul 2013 #77
Shit, he could have banged his head on the car's door as he raced out to shoot-down Travon. 1-Old-Man Jul 2013 #127
Question (because I haven't been watching this trial) Autumn Colors Jul 2013 #108
The notion the jury can't speculate ... ThePhilosopher04 Jul 2013 #130
I'm not a lawyer but... Hubert Flottz Jul 2013 #133
Years ago tiredtoo Jul 2013 #137
#3 is actually completely false, not just "disputed" (nt) Nye Bevan Jul 2013 #141
The police dispatcher told Fatty "we don't need you to do that( follow Trayvon)."/nt DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #162
When my wife tells me that she "doesn't need me" to take the garbage out, Nye Bevan Jul 2013 #164
The "is what is is " defense DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #171
Probably not. But it is false to say that you were "told by the police not to follow him". Nye Bevan Jul 2013 #182
If a trained police dispatcher tells you "we don't need you to do that" DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2013 #190
Sorry, not even close to the facts Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #186
only because it is difficult to prove ill will beyond a doubt Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #200
Facts are things that actually happened Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #216
well, being that you have all the sense CatWoman Jul 2013 #219
Let's start with #3 Chico Man Jul 2013 #223
this is all I need to know -- shove your "expertise" elsewhere CatWoman Jul 2013 #230
I agree Chico Man Jul 2013 #233
Not to speak ill of the dead Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #242
See here's the thing, that KID is dead and zimmy is a PROVEN liar....END OF STORY! Ecumenist Jul 2013 #257
Everyone is speculating Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #266
"The cheese off the cracker" Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #267
+1 Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #241
If you think those are the facts Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #244
K&R Rebellious Republican Jul 2013 #214
dkf can argue til blue, but Zimmerman's life is now worth about as much as Martin's Patiod Jul 2013 #225
One of the lone voices of reason here Chico Man Jul 2013 #226
dfk has a habit of doing that CatWoman Jul 2013 #231
Except "humiliated or harassed" is a da*n sight better than "dead." WinkyDink Jul 2013 #246
Sadly true Patiod Jul 2013 #268
I'd like to think this, too, but it's Florida. Maybe he'll be a King Bee. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #271
Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #227
To me, this whole case pivots on the fact Blue_In_AK Jul 2013 #234
That's it in a nutshell duffyduff Jul 2013 #236
kick Liberal_in_LA Jul 2013 #254
as josh marshall put it arely staircase Jul 2013 #260
Evidently not Patiod Jul 2013 #269
sadly not arely staircase Jul 2013 #270
K&R ReRe Jul 2013 #265
. blkmusclmachine Jul 2013 #276
K & R SoapBox Jul 2013 #277
So now a mugger can claim self defense in Florida when he shoots a victim. Kablooie Jul 2013 #279
Same Basic Point I Made Above DallasNE Jul 2013 #282
The lesson? Do not defend yourself if you are black in the state of Florida? SleeplessinSoCal Jul 2013 #281
That's what I See With This Case. lib87 Jul 2013 #290
The gun wasn't seen. But he followed him. If I were being followed in the rain by a guy SleeplessinSoCal Jul 2013 #291
Amazing colsohlibgal Jul 2013 #284
Well, it's all over folks defacto7 Jul 2013 #289
K&R n/t lupinella Jul 2013 #292
K&R Raffi Ella Jul 2013 #296
And the result is that armed vigilantism is alive and well in Florida. MoonRiver Jul 2013 #299
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