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msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
236. Because there's a difference between a whine, and an attempt to lighten the mood.
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:27 PM
May 2013

The former is self-indulgence, which is always in bad taste. The latter is making fun of that self-indulgence. And the latest report is that 37 people plus are dead. Vanity, vanity...all is vanity.

You know what I think Dash87 May 2013 #1
LOL, every time I read your posts Jazzgirl May 2013 #47
Got another! :D Dash87 May 2013 #50
Yeah, Dash and I have had this conversation. Best or worst dig line ever! nolabear May 2013 #329
They still use "gentlemanly", also. Also rather archaic. SharonAnn May 2013 #99
What is archaic about manners and etiquette? Not getting huffy with you. I think we have different KittyWampus May 2013 #120
I was thinking the same thing. Did I miss something. Like you I'm just wondering. southernyankeebelle May 2013 #163
Does anyone say "ungentlemanly"? loyalsister May 2013 #168
I used that term today to describe a jerk dr.strangelove May 2013 #170
I have never heard it used loyalsister May 2013 #178
I have heard it that way as well. LostOne4Ever May 2013 #279
I hear that term a lot ....... oldhippie May 2013 #180
Absolutely. "Bill O'Reilly behaves in an ungentlemanly fashion most nights on his TV show." MADem May 2013 #217
They make it a little more 'wordy'.... daleanime May 2013 #227
I think "gentlemanly" is rather archaic. Dash87 May 2013 #210
I agree. I raised my son to be a gentleman. dmr May 2013 #214
Yes, but that has a positive connotation. southerncrone May 2013 #232
I haven't really thought of it, because I haven't really heard it. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #2
From my point of view, awkwardness is ladylike if a lady does it. Luminous Animal May 2013 #254
It's an inside family joke. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #263
That's cool. Luminous Animal May 2013 #264
Antiquated and useless get the red out May 2013 #3
Men who don't consider women as strong, or as equals. DCKit May 2013 #4
I prefer unladylike behavior! randome May 2013 #5
Hate it. Who used it recently that has rekindled this discussion? PeaceNikki May 2013 #6
I hesitate to say, juries are hit or miss. nt redqueen May 2013 #12
oh, right here on DU? PeaceNikki May 2013 #19
Look at the replies to this OP. redqueen May 2013 #24
*sigh* PeaceNikki May 2013 #25
I'm not sure that's entirely fair hootinholler May 2013 #33
Par for the course Major Nikon May 2013 #200
What?! Someone used a word of which you disapprove? Oh,the horror. Comrade Grumpy May 2013 #63
Yeah... like FUCK!! Think of the children!!!111!!! PeaceNikki May 2013 #153
Well, we may as well post the jury results muriel_volestrangler May 2013 #241
Cult of true womenhood. ZombieHorde May 2013 #7
Mental hermaphrodites, unite! n/t TygrBright May 2013 #125
Well, I'm distinctly unladylike. MineralMan May 2013 #8
Depends on context. It can be a useful remark to someone who considers herself a lady... aikoaiko May 2013 #9
I'm generally not insulted by it. n/t lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #10
It's a Texasgal May 2013 #11
Seeing it used here in this context hootinholler May 2013 #13
"unladylike" = not under anyone's control eShirl May 2013 #14
Did you just call Madonna a whore! snooper2 May 2013 #15
I wish it would take a flying leap into the abyss where the word "gentlemanly" got tossed librechik May 2013 #16
I'm sure most feminists agree. nt redqueen May 2013 #17
What 'abyss' has 'gentlemanly 'been tossed into? muriel_volestrangler May 2013 #191
OOUUTTRRAAGGEE!!! Puzzledtraveller May 2013 #18
yeah. this. (nt) smackd May 2013 #32
That I believe would be considered quite "ladylike". LanternWaste May 2013 #90
I enjoy many of the "ladylike" qualities in my wife... Pelican May 2013 #20
I think it's problematic but not wholly negative el_bryanto May 2013 #21
I remember a phrase my stepfather would use to describe "unladylike" behavior... KansDem May 2013 #22
My standard repy when it was used in the past.. madmom May 2013 #23
My standard reply to that is to belch. But I don't know how to spell that. Matariki May 2013 #26
In usage Cirque du So-What May 2013 #27
I'm with you. Strike ladylike and gentlemanly and their negatives for classy and classless. nt stevenleser May 2013 #56
Classy assumes that you belong to a class that knows how to "behave". Luminous Animal May 2013 #258
Classy has nothing to do with economic class. I've seen plenty of classless rich people nt stevenleser May 2013 #282
He'll I've been unladylike my whole life newfie11 May 2013 #28
Yeah. It describes me like no other word does. n/t cherokeeprogressive May 2013 #36
Lol I wear it proudly newfie11 May 2013 #54
Another iPhone user. Dash87 May 2013 #76
Lol you are right newfie11 May 2013 #123
You can always turn it off in "Settings" emulatorloo May 2013 #197
Thanks for the info, but I screw up far too much not to have it. I couldn't live without it! Dash87 May 2013 #209
Same here newfie11 May 2013 #283
Me too, LOL! emulatorloo May 2013 #346
Yeah, and I noticed the good-looking ones belch loudest. Eleanors38 May 2013 #265
I never mastered that newfie11 May 2013 #284
That was extinguished in the 70s in our house. JohnnyLib2 May 2013 #29
Seems like a bit of a journey from "unladylike" to "Madonna/whore" Buzz Clik May 2013 #30
These concepts are linked. This is Feminism 101 stuff. redqueen May 2013 #35
So, if you say I'm acting in an unladylike manner, that you're actually calling me a whore? Buzz Clik May 2013 #45
It implies that it is too aggressive for a lady. annabanana May 2013 #62
Well, I guess I'll have to disagree. Buzz Clik May 2013 #64
Only in the most remote sense Major Nikon May 2013 #192
Well, I generally don't think HappyMe May 2013 #31
You should just link to Dawkins' "Dear Muslima" rant. It'd save you time. nt redqueen May 2013 #34
Who the fuck is Dawkins? HappyMe May 2013 #39
The Atheist version of God (nt) Nye Bevan May 2013 #51
Okay. HappyMe May 2013 #52
It doesn't. You were making sense, you pointed out real issues that are worthy of sabrina 1 May 2013 #281
World renown biologist, and quite brilliant. Gore1FL May 2013 #77
So... he is a godless heathen who's going STRAIGHT to HELL!!!! Demo_Chris May 2013 #82
I'm still confused about the HappyMe May 2013 #88
Hell if I know. I figure if terms like "ladylike" are your big concerns... Demo_Chris May 2013 #98
Thanks. HappyMe May 2013 #102
What a ridiculous conclusion go make. Discussing the word ladylike sufrommich May 2013 #103
Remember Derailing for Dummies? redqueen May 2013 #111
Read EXACTLY what I wrote... Demo_Chris May 2013 #132
Except nobody "ranked" the word "unladylike" as sufrommich May 2013 #173
I imagine many people lack the ability to possess concern for both the large and the small things in LanternWaste May 2013 #304
Not a clue on why he was brought up. Gore1FL May 2013 #100
calling for another round of the Opression Olympics? bettyellen May 2013 #291
I'm not calling for anything. HappyMe May 2013 #292
flame bait demwing May 2013 #37
It is the companion to "ungentlemanly." MADem May 2013 #38
^ this ^ progressoid May 2013 #147
It is not a very manly thing to say (nt) The Straight Story May 2013 #40
"Manly" behavior is not popular with the author of the OP, either. Buzz Clik May 2013 #61
The companion to "manly" is "womanly." MADem May 2013 #267
But manly promotes the stereotype that a man needs to be "tough" and "dominant"... cascadiance May 2013 #338
It's just a word that describes a person's appearance or demeanor. It doesn't necessarily promote MADem May 2013 #340
I don't really give a flying fuck. Hardly high up on my list of things to be outraged cali May 2013 #41
I'm sure you'd really appreciate a man telling you your posts are unladylike. boston bean May 2013 #211
Wouldn't bother me in the least, in fact, I would probably take is as a compliment, or simply sabrina 1 May 2013 #336
I can certainly believe you feel that way and would have never bothered boston bean May 2013 #341
This is very unladylike Major Nikon May 2013 #242
and i will be ungentlemanly and agree loli phabay May 2013 #306
Depends on the context, but I don't automatically see that word as an insult. Nye Bevan May 2013 #42
Can men engage in unladylike behavior? MattBaggins May 2013 #71
Ungentlemanly (nt) Nye Bevan May 2013 #113
If a guy bends over and everyone sees his ruffled panties then yes! One_Life_To_Give May 2013 #195
"And when he pulls his frilly nylon panties right up tight, Art_from_Ark May 2013 #273
My wife uses that term all the time Shrek May 2013 #43
My mother also used that term all the time. RebelOne May 2013 #110
Growing up and a "tomboy" I hated it. And, at age 55, I still don't know what the fuck Luminous Animal May 2013 #260
In the here and now, I think it refers (colloquially at its weakest point) to any female... LanternWaste May 2013 #44
I think you've hit on it. . . .n/t annabanana May 2013 #66
Thank you for this post. short and excellent. nt. NCTraveler May 2013 #171
I have no problem with the word "ladylike" badtoworse May 2013 #46
It's ridiculous. sibelian May 2013 #48
No. Do not care to discuss it. Got better things to do. Comrade Grumpy May 2013 #49
You are posting on DU MattBaggins May 2013 #73
Nor you. Comrade Grumpy May 2013 #84
And yet, here you are... Squinch May 2013 #216
Archaic, should be discarded from modern usage. (nt) Paladin May 2013 #53
I have a feeling it is used all the time around the world. Rex May 2013 #55
I admit I use it with my daughter maddezmom May 2013 #59
Do you use it with your sons if you have any? MattBaggins May 2013 #74
My son is a nonverbal and he has severe autism maddezmom May 2013 #83
The daughter I azmom May 2013 #112
Well I believe you can be a real feminist and have manners. n/t maddezmom May 2013 #116
I think the issue azmom May 2013 #130
The companion word is "ungentlemanly." MADem May 2013 #221
What does it matter where ones elbows are? MattBaggins May 2013 #248
... opiate69 May 2013 #249
So another dead unimportant European thing MattBaggins May 2013 #251
pretty much... opiate69 May 2013 #252
If you don't understand why it is rude, I can't help you. MADem May 2013 #250
Lol.. It's not about wealth MattBaggins May 2013 #253
If they're invited to a formal event, they do want this information and they want to follow it. MADem May 2013 #266
Yeah. Or belching loudly. Or spitting. Who cares about this "manners" stuff? (nt) Nye Bevan May 2013 #259
Belching isn't rude in every culture MattBaggins May 2013 #261
I guess I am in the minority here. Rex May 2013 #107
I think it's a substantial mis-identification or mis-attribution of what the traits of valid patrice May 2013 #57
i laugh at people who think they are insulting me with it... (as in i'm NOT ladylike) Scout May 2013 #58
A condition I strive for daily! annabanana May 2013 #60
Meaningless in a Modern Society. Same goes for "Manly." CBGLuthier May 2013 #65
This message was self-deleted by its author Apophis May 2013 #67
It's a word used to remind a woman that she's entered sufrommich May 2013 #68
Apparently this thread is for you to tell us all how we should feel ProudToBeBlueInRhody May 2013 #69
and for attention datasuspect May 2013 #93
OMG, I just found the thread that spurred all this ProudToBeBlueInRhody May 2013 #97
Please share then hootinholler May 2013 #101
Here ProudToBeBlueInRhody May 2013 #105
LOL azmom May 2013 #118
Really? hootinholler May 2013 #127
LMMFAO!! That is epic! opiate69 May 2013 #129
And the lulz never stop ProudToBeBlueInRhody May 2013 #185
lmao... wind 'em up and watch 'em go!! opiate69 May 2013 #188
It would be even more so to see the alert results Major Nikon May 2013 #208
This message was self-deleted by its author opiate69 May 2013 #108
+1 Buzz Clik May 2013 #141
My Mom used it on my sisters all the time in the late sixties/ early seventies. It was code FSogol May 2013 #70
My grandmother used the term ... onpatrol98 May 2013 #72
I strive to be unladylike every day BuddhaGirl May 2013 #75
Are you implying that a woman would act like a man? RC May 2013 #78
I never really thought about it much, but Jamaal510 May 2013 #79
It's very very JustAnotherGen May 2013 #80
I don't think I have heard it used other than ironically. nt Demo_Chris May 2013 #81
If a woman lifts her leg and farts, I can't call her act "ungentlemanly", can I? Scuba May 2013 #85
somebody that would probably be a lot of fun to be around. hobbit709 May 2013 #86
i hear it used most often when older women (boomers and lost generation) galileoreloaded May 2013 #87
The same thing I think of "unmanly" MNBrewer May 2013 #89
Oh - you'll LOVE this then... jmg257 May 2013 #91
i sit down to pee datasuspect May 2013 #92
Fine. I'll confess. So do I. randome May 2013 #106
On a train, airplane or other moving conveyance, it is the gentlemanly thing to do. MADem May 2013 #228
It was something I was accused of all the time by nuns and various Cleita May 2013 #94
Do people still use that?.... one_voice May 2013 #95
ahem... cyberswede May 2013 #135
Oh, well... one_voice May 2013 #167
I would look forward to some relic saying that to me. Whisp May 2013 #96
Now Sissyk May 2013 #179
I'm old school. I do believe that part of the problem we have in this sinkingfeeling May 2013 #104
+1 Shrek May 2013 #145
It is a perfectly fine word. I have no issues with it. Throd May 2013 #109
I certainly don't think the term is worthy of a profane response. kestrel91316 May 2013 #114
I think the context matters, but I'm happy to give this term and its male equivalent up to help stevenleser May 2013 #119
I don't consider either one of them to contribute to "negative" gender stereotypes. kestrel91316 May 2013 #122
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl May 2013 #115
I'm fine with it. It denotes manners and etiquette which are sorely lacking in many, many KittyWampus May 2013 #117
About the same as I think about "unGentlemanly" or "unManly". Tierra_y_Libertad May 2013 #121
"Unmanly" is a bullshit sexist term as well. redqueen May 2013 #124
Examples from current news coverage muriel_volestrangler May 2013 #199
Most of the time, "rude" or "ill-mannered" would do. nt raccoon May 2013 #126
I know the last time some pickleface called me unladylike, I replied Warpy May 2013 #128
Calling you unladylike to your face was itself an ungentlemanly thing to do. Nye Bevan May 2013 #206
Yeah, that was my thinking, too Warpy May 2013 #225
No way, the subjugation of women is deeply ingrained through virtually every Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #131
So true azmom May 2013 #140
Interesting. redqueen May 2013 #151
Hi redqueen azmom May 2013 #166
I was not trolling at all. I was answering your comment about the Madonna/Whore complex. Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #169
No no no no, not you... redqueen May 2013 #172
Thanks for clarifying, I was concerned. Well, here's another kick. Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #182
"like you haven't had enough abuse..." opiate69 May 2013 #194
Don't bring your shit over here. Any problem you have with Redqueen is your's. Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #196
I'll take it under advisement. opiate69 May 2013 #198
Shit hauling... Major Nikon May 2013 #234
"over here"? Dude, it's "general discussion". lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #299
Over here, as in the conversation I'm having with some else. You guys are free to piss all over Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #301
News flash: Now you are talking to me. lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #305
Only because you have rudely interjected yourself. There exists no device that can accurately Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #307
The device you're looking for is on your screen. It's called "ignore". n/t lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #308
Not a chance, reading the authoritarian drivel and Reich-wing bullying that Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #310
Good! I'm glad to hear it! lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #335
Post removed Post removed May 2013 #309
Post removed Post removed May 2013 #311
What do I think? Iggo May 2013 #133
It's a bullshit word: riqster May 2013 #134
Nose-picking. kysrsoze May 2013 #136
I think it says a whole lot about the person using the word... MadrasT May 2013 #137
I like it a lot! Why? Soundman May 2013 #138
Unladylike you say ? SamKnause May 2013 #139
It's Victorian treestar May 2013 #142
Oh, my! Your post isn't very ladylike at all!!! Zorra May 2013 #143
I was under the impression that carrying fights from one thread to another was frowned upon? Buzz Clik May 2013 #144
What the fuck are you talking about? What fight? redqueen May 2013 #157
Knock it off. Your shit storm/poutfest has already been linked and documented on this thread. Buzz Clik May 2013 #187
GD is the new Meta Major Nikon May 2013 #285
Gotta love amateur internet psychoanalysts Major Nikon May 2013 #286
Unladylike/ungentlemanly, for me anyway, are less about gender and more... Poll_Blind May 2013 #146
'She's a Lady' by Tom Jones Whisp May 2013 #148
I always hated that song for its disgusting sexism. nt Nay May 2013 #190
Tom Jones is English. RC May 2013 #222
That Tom Jones is English is irrelevant; yes, a "lady" in England can also be an upper-class Nay May 2013 #244
No, he is not English. MADem May 2013 #268
Laughable marions ghost May 2013 #149
I have no problem with the word StrongBad May 2013 #150
Sexist and stupid HockeyMom May 2013 #152
But it does have its uses occasionally, right? Nye Bevan May 2013 #158
Wow. redqueen May 2013 #160
Condescending, classist, and sexist. Deep13 May 2013 #154
Oh, surely it occasionally has its uses. Nye Bevan May 2013 #155
You realize it's being used ironically, right? cyberswede May 2013 #175
Funny enough, it was being used ironically in this thread's case too ProudToBeBlueInRhody May 2013 #186
"Ironically" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. That wasn't irony. Squinch May 2013 #204
You need to have your sacrasm sensor tested. nt Deep13 May 2013 #246
Succint and accurate. You and Egalitarian Thug summed it up well. redqueen May 2013 #159
thanks. nt Deep13 May 2013 #245
something a grandmother would say Kali May 2013 #156
I get the feeling you do not wish to "discuss" this idea at all. Common Sense Party May 2013 #161
Yeah, funny how that works with progressive ideas on a progressive board. redqueen May 2013 #165
I highly doubt that. Common Sense Party May 2013 #213
Appropriate when called for. MrSlayer May 2013 #162
Fuck that word. Solly Mack May 2013 #164
Wow, it's fascinating watching folks get riled up and go into attack mode MadrasT May 2013 #174
Right? redqueen May 2013 #176
Actually the people getting really riled up are the "fuck that word" posters. Nye Bevan May 2013 #177
There's a difference between a dismissal and being "riled up". Solly Mack May 2013 #189
So who exactly is getting riled up in the first place? Major Nikon May 2013 #203
You'll have to ask those who make claim that others are riled up. Solly Mack May 2013 #215
I understand what you mean now Major Nikon May 2013 #218
Not nearly as fascinating as watching a thinly disguised meta thread make it into GD. Warren DeMontague May 2013 #270
Veneer-thin. nt msanthrope May 2013 #272
I think it is a wonderful word... 99Forever May 2013 #181
It depends on how it's used meow2u3 May 2013 #183
Anyone who called me "unladylike"... bunnies May 2013 #184
newsflash, you found another word to add to the forbidden list quinnox May 2013 #193
Every edition of the Newspeak Dictionary is smaller than its predecessor..... (nt) Nye Bevan May 2013 #219
Well behaved women rarely make history Blue Owl May 2013 #201
Meh. Men still have to deal with outdated views on manliness. Codeine May 2013 #202
I have no problem with it whatsoever AgingAmerican May 2013 #205
I like to see threads like this because they demonstrate that the big battles have been won. Nye Bevan May 2013 #207
It is outrageous! Riftaxe May 2013 #212
"Women should never be held to civilized or polite behavior" sufrommich May 2013 #224
Like Todd Akin did? geek tragedy May 2013 #231
Liberals made fun of Todd Akin when he used it. geek tragedy May 2013 #220
We will never have true gender equality until RC May 2013 #237
"Ladylike" is not a reference to uteruses, but rather an attempt geek tragedy May 2013 #238
Best compliment anyone has ever paid me. n/t cherokeeprogressive May 2013 #223
use it with my daughters Niceguy1 May 2013 #226
How quaint. nt geek tragedy May 2013 #229
I think with 24 plus kids dead in OK, I really couldn't give a shit about this vanity post. nt msanthrope May 2013 #230
I was literally just reading your post in the "girls poop too" sufrommich May 2013 #233
Because there's a difference between a whine, and an attempt to lighten the mood. msanthrope May 2013 #236
Utter hypocritical bullshit. Pointing out that sufrommich May 2013 #239
You certainly do not have to accept my say-so. But you could be more classy with your language. nt msanthrope May 2013 #240
says the person chatting about poop- while wringing their hands everyone else isn't fundraising for bettyellen May 2013 #321
I must say that I expected better from you. nt msanthrope May 2013 #342
I'm sorry- I just don't get people coming into threads they think are dumb to tell other people bettyellen May 2013 #343
I generally go with JNelson6563 May 2013 #235
What the fuck does it matter Summer Hathaway May 2013 #243
the doors story is an invention BainsBane May 2013 #256
No.. it's not an invention... opiate69 May 2013 #262
Oh, really? Summer Hathaway May 2013 #269
Yes, there was a lot of discussion BainsBane May 2013 #274
As I always say Summer Hathaway May 2013 #276
You accused the OP of complaining about men opening doors BainsBane May 2013 #277
What I posted was Summer Hathaway May 2013 #280
Awesome post. polly7 May 2013 #288
the only posters expressing outrage Scout May 2013 #289
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague May 2013 #290
My God... opiate69 May 2013 #298
Amazing people should devote so much of their own outrage BainsBane May 2013 #295
I see BainsBane May 2013 #294
A group is comprised of individuals. Summer Hathaway May 2013 #300
language is part of culture BainsBane May 2013 #302
Is it at all possible Summer Hathaway May 2013 #314
I'll take that as a no BainsBane May 2013 #315
It was most definitely a change of subject. Summer Hathaway May 2013 #318
also, I believe you are mistaken in thinking BainsBane May 2013 #303
"To insist a woman be ladylike ... Summer Hathaway May 2013 #312
Sounds to me like you have some important issues BainsBane May 2013 #313
I am concerned Summer Hathaway May 2013 #316
but you do very consistently "waste your time" - and ours- on telling people their interest in bettyellen May 2013 #319
Please point out Summer Hathaway May 2013 #322
"You'll be waiting" proof you waste your time... and berating others who are discussing language or bettyellen May 2013 #323
You made the accusation. Summer Hathaway May 2013 #324
change the topic? oh no, sweetheart it's ALL about how you waste loads of time bettyellen May 2013 #325
Still waiting. Summer Hathaway May 2013 #326
Cool, you stay there in this "trivial thread, and I'll be right back. bettyellen May 2013 #330
In other words ... Summer Hathaway May 2013 #334
Exactly- and it is not as if this wasn't explained clearly and directly before, yet the BS continues bettyellen May 2013 #293
I don't think about it at all. I don't give a shit about such trivial crap. HiPointDem May 2013 #247
Me neither, I wish I had the time to waste on trivia like this, not to mention that I have zero sabrina 1 May 2013 #339
I don't mind it really LittleBlue May 2013 #255
HUGE fan MannyGoldstein May 2013 #257
dare I sayeth, I think yon internete posteur may have used said particular phraseage in an effort Warren DeMontague May 2013 #271
I find it condescending and dismissive. Spider Jerusalem May 2013 #275
What about "unmanly" davidn3600 May 2013 #278
"Unmanly" isn't the equivalent of "unladylike". That would be "Ungentlemanly". sinkingfeeling May 2013 #287
don't forget the bitch/slut dichotomy ... this one seems more prevalent to me lately... Tuesday Afternoon May 2013 #296
Many, if not most of my sheroes have behaved most "unlady-like" me b zola May 2013 #297
Said it better than i could. alp227 May 2013 #317
This reminds me about the Jim Morrison story... cherokeeprogressive May 2013 #320
What needs to be discussed here? pinboy3niner May 2013 #327
Oh, just for the fun of it, Newest Reality May 2013 #328
I tell my cat she's being unladylike The Velveteen Ocelot May 2013 #331
That's the female version of "uppity" right? truebrit71 May 2013 #332
Perfectly good word, in Victorian literature, and acceptable until 1966. Agnosticsherbet May 2013 #333
I know a lot of older people who use that word... Jasana May 2013 #337
It's still being used against strong women. Beacool May 2013 #344
It's a word. Like table or rutabaga. nt rrneck May 2013 #345
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