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dogman

(6,073 posts)

33. What does a cap do for a poor person?

Reply to pnwmom (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 03:38 PM

Jan 2013

Poor people also tend to smoke more.

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New healthcare law could penalize older smokers up to $4,250 per year [View all] banned from Kos Jan 2013 OP

As a person that smoked for 8-9 years myself, I agree with this in principle. phleshdef Jan 2013 #1

Except it does not apply to obesity and other factors. dogman Jan 2013 #4

I'm pretty sure obesity can drive your premiums up already. phleshdef Jan 2013 #5

Not under the ACA, just smoking. dogman Jan 2013 #7

Before the ACA, they could be denied insurance entirely. phleshdef Jan 2013 #16

For anything. dogman Jan 2013 #28

That sounds familiar Confusious Jan 2013 #201

Obesity can be caused by genetic factors and other illnesses, pnwmom Jan 2013 #24

And addiction is not an illness? dogman Jan 2013 #27

Not the same and you know it. Food is needed for nutrition, pnwmom Jan 2013 #60

That's not how it works and you know it. dogman Jan 2013 #64

It's not an instinct. There's nothing about being human that makes people need to smoke. pnwmom Jan 2013 #131

not if they have to pay an extra $4000 on top of the regular premium, it won't. first, that's HiPointDem Jan 2013 #214

They do have the option of quitting, and paying the same rate as anybody else -- pnwmom Jan 2013 #217

then the pricing scheme makes no sense at all, since the highest rates are charged to older HiPointDem Jan 2013 #218

It makes sense to me because it encourages people to stop before it's too late, pnwmom Jan 2013 #220

i thought it was an insurance program, not a smoking cessation incentive. which is it? HiPointDem Jan 2013 #221

It's both. It's an insurance program that takes smoking risk into account, pnwmom Jan 2013 #222

or neither. because you've already admitted it's allocating risk & cost incorrectly, & the HiPointDem Jan 2013 #223

As you say, Medicare provided equally for everyone, whether they were fat, thin, drug addicts, HiPointDem Jan 2013 #207

I've always considered empathy to be a major difference between GOP & Dems dogman Jan 2013 #232

You left out the genetic part Special Agent Oso Jan 2013 #87

See post #64 dogman Jan 2013 #90

There is NOTHING even close to smoking dmallind Jan 2013 #30

So we can only concern ourselves with #1? dogman Jan 2013 #35

Yes, but how much to smokers 'cost' the HC system vs. the obese? beaglelover Jan 2013 #39

Late honey Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #53

Obesity does cost the system more. phleshdef Jan 2013 #55

I smoke. I cost the healthcare system NOTHING. have been paying for insurance for 55 years. robinlynne Jan 2013 #120

It disgusts me, too. Jack Sprat Jan 2013 #125

being a smoker isn't a condition TorchTheWitch Jan 2013 #197

"including zero non-obese" jberryhill Jan 2013 #51

Where's the link to your source? Those nos. don't make sense. Also, deaths don't matter. Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #127

That's usually because laundry_queen Jan 2013 #136

I've never known someone morbidly obese who became slim naturally in older years. Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #171

No need to school me about metabolic syndrome laundry_queen Jan 2013 #173

No need to school me in metabolic syndrome. I've done the research. Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #180

And you lack empathy. nt laundry_queen Jan 2013 #195

Obese Workers Have Even Higher Health Costs than Smokers, Study Finds HiPointDem Jan 2013 #215

Obesity already causes higher premiums. nt bluestate10 Jan 2013 #97

Read the link in the OP. dogman Jan 2013 #114

actually smoking is way worse than obesity dsc Jan 2013 #126

actually not. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #211

That doesn't make sense to me. I wonder why? nt Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #172

It's just another tax on the poor, the economic group most likely to smoke. They're already HiPointDem Jan 2013 #42

If they are poor, then they qualify for Medicaid and thus this is irrelevant. phleshdef Jan 2013 #43

By 'poor' I mean the lower classes, not just the indigent. No, the lower working class are not HiPointDem Jan 2013 #45

Whatever. If people engage in giving themselves an easily preventable condition for no good reason.. phleshdef Jan 2013 #48

The higher your income, the longer you live & the more you use healthcare & the bigger the HiPointDem Jan 2013 #49

You just made that up and you are wrong. phleshdef Jan 2013 #52

medicare isn't medicaid. low-income people die younger & collect less on medicare. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #54

You are just twisting yourself in knots now. phleshdef Jan 2013 #57

Do I? "Smokers and the obese cheaper to care for, study shows" HiPointDem Jan 2013 #76

Misleading, dated and incorrect. phleshdef Jan 2013 #140

lol. your 'rebuttal' study isn't about lifetime costs. and it also claims that obesity is even HiPointDem Jan 2013 #141

Its about annual costs, which is more palpable than life expectancy speculation. phleshdef Jan 2013 #198

it's not *palpable* at all, as for *bigoted bullshit,* i've had a crawful of bigoted bullshit from HiPointDem Jan 2013 #200

Income has NOTHING to do with that kind of denigration. phleshdef Jan 2013 #203

The life expectancy differences are AN ACTUARIAL CERTAINTY, proven statistically in multiple HiPointDem Jan 2013 #205

Its a certainty until its not a certainty. That "certainty" can easily change. phleshdef Jan 2013 #208

i'm talking about the *actuarial certainty* that low-income people as a *class* die younger. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #212

Thank-you! robinlynne Jan 2013 #175

You are high and mighty. You would remove my health care? robinlynne Jan 2013 #121

No. Where the hell did I say that? phleshdef Jan 2013 #138

my income is 15,000. exactly enough for rent and health insurance, without food. I am robinlynne Jan 2013 #142

You obviously didn't read the stuff I actually posted. phleshdef Jan 2013 #154

You said I should pay more for health insurance because I smoke. I cant pay a penny more. robinlynne Jan 2013 #179

Christ. Calm yourself. Getting all fumey doesn't help your argument at all. phleshdef Jan 2013 #199

It's actually paying MORE THAN THREE TIMES what the supposed 'extra cost' is (about $1200K/year, on HiPointDem Jan 2013 #216

Everyone who willfully introduces longterm lifestyle risks does not have to pay more. robinlynne Jan 2013 #231

Segmenting insurance markets by risk cuts across that risk-spreading benefit in the interest of prof Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #58

I don't agree, and I am not a smoker. This is discrimination pure and simple. What if this was still_one Jan 2013 #105

It is very unfair. They do not do it for Medicare. Also, I am not a still_one Jan 2013 #106

So patients will be required to lie to their healthcare providers dogman Jan 2013 #2

Are those the only two options? cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #6

Death Downwinder Jan 2013 #8

If they continue to smoke. dogman Jan 2013 #11

You don't expect people to actually quit smoking, do you? Freddie Stubbs Jan 2013 #92

Don't many quit smoking when the price gets too high? No Vested Interest Jan 2013 #128

They'll lie to their insurance providers, and that's fraud. kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #17

Sounds like the GOP healthcare plan. dogman Jan 2013 #19

Actually, Obamacare is an improvement for smokers and offers more protections for them CreekDog Jan 2013 #73

Except there are a large number of people who are not currently denied. dogman Jan 2013 #81

you don't know their costs will be going up CreekDog Jan 2013 #84

I guess it is all an assumption. dogman Jan 2013 #88

it doesn't single out anybody CreekDog Jan 2013 #89

For someone who wrote about my posts, it is obvious you dogman Jan 2013 #91

they aren't less than human CreekDog Jan 2013 #93

nt dogman Jan 2013 #95

that's a lie and you know it because you stated the opposite just a couple posts ago CreekDog Jan 2013 #100

LOL I see you edited your post --because you said something ridiculous CreekDog Jan 2013 #103

No bullshit, if the game is fuck you to the "undesirables" TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #230

All it guarantees is that they pay more. dogman Jan 2013 #96

you are lying about the law again CreekDog Jan 2013 #104

The fact that it is left to the insurance companies tells me it does. dogman Jan 2013 #109

This message was self-deleted by its author dogman Jan 2013 #101

Would quiting solve the problem? creeksneakers2 Jan 2013 #182

why are you spreading falsehoods about Obamacare? CreekDog Jan 2013 #184

I read the article creeksneakers2 Jan 2013 #186

if you quit you're not a smoker, get it? CreekDog Jan 2013 #187

Somebody downthread said the creeksneakers2 Jan 2013 #188

the law is here: CreekDog Jan 2013 #190

the rules don't say they can charge former smokers more CreekDog Jan 2013 #189

They won't have to lie loyalsister Jan 2013 #178

Oh wait. . . . Those insurers have insidious little ways of finding out if one is lying. . . BigDemVoter Jan 2013 #23

I was not refering to insurers. dogman Jan 2013 #31

As if the only way to get nicotine is to smoke. Mariana Jan 2013 #41

how much do you want to bet that people will be tested for nicotine just as they are tested HiPointDem Jan 2013 #46

They test for nicotine for life insurance policies. Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #56

i'm pretty sure they already test for nicotine, period. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #69

You could be correct... Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #71

which would not tell you if someone smokes or not. only if they did. robinlynne Jan 2013 #143

'if they did' when the blood was drawn is basically 'that they do'. the percent of people who have HiPointDem Jan 2013 #147

nictoine patches, nicotine gum, e-cigs are everywhere. non smokers all. robinlynne Jan 2013 #150

it really doesn't matter, does it? fairness is beside the point. The point is to discipline and HiPointDem Jan 2013 #152

My point is nicotine does not a smoker make. Almost all ex smokers use nicotine. robinlynne Jan 2013 #176

Another reason to quit. GeorgeGist Jan 2013 #3

Indeed. Earth_First Jan 2013 #10

Great for you. dogman Jan 2013 #12

I spoke at great lengths about the possible side effects wih my prescribing physician.. Earth_First Jan 2013 #13

If it makes you feel better, Kurt Vonnegut described smoking as. . . Journeyman Jan 2013 #15

I quit around 40 years ago. dogman Jan 2013 #22

We will pay the penalty or we will quit smoking LanternWaste Jan 2013 #50

This is where single payer makes SO much more sense. laundry_queen Jan 2013 #137

Depending on income, it would remove our chance of having health care. robinlynne Jan 2013 #145

My doctor refused to give prescribe it, citing potential side effects. Incitatus Jan 2013 #72

exactly. robinlynne Jan 2013 #144

I quit on Chantix as well in 2007 SouthernDonkey Jan 2013 #193

it gave my neighbor heart/lung problems. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #47

I quit about 2 years ago cold turkey and I feel a hell of a lot better. Incitatus Jan 2013 #70

Exactly. nt bluestate10 Jan 2013 #99

OMG. shill baby shill... Jan 2013 #183

it's like a thousand little nails datasuspect Jan 2013 #9

You wouldn't be alone. A lot of people starting to think the same way. Unfortunately we DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav Jan 2013 #18

And under the provisions of the ACA, individual states have the right to lower or change that number Ikonoklast Jan 2013 #14

Smoking is expensive in Europe and Canada too RandiFan1290 Jan 2013 #20

tough choice, spend $$ on your drug addiction or health care nt msongs Jan 2013 #21

Are smokers there excluded from healthcare? dogman Jan 2013 #26

They are not excluded RandiFan1290 Jan 2013 #32

Yes laundry_queen Jan 2013 #139

Smokers have always been charged higher premiums. This puts a cap on that. n/t pnwmom Jan 2013 #25

What does a cap do for a poor person? dogman Jan 2013 #33

The health care law ProSense Jan 2013 #34

Good dogman Jan 2013 #36

Medicaid has been expanded for poor people pnwmom Jan 2013 #37

That's their fault. nt geek tragedy Jan 2013 #78

Your right, we should only help perfect people. dogman Jan 2013 #85

No. Charging smokers more is perfectly logical. geek tragedy Jan 2013 #86

Does Medicare charge smokers more? dogman Jan 2013 #94

Smoking is different. It is (a) 100% voluntary and (b) 100% guaranteed to lead to higher geek tragedy Jan 2013 #115

So smokers are the only evil people seeking healthcare? dogman Jan 2013 #116

Never said that. Only that they choose to make themselves less healthy and more expensive geek tragedy Jan 2013 #119

Wasn't thinking of the smoker's politics. dogman Jan 2013 #122

Empathetic is one thing. Terrible public policy is another. geek tragedy Jan 2013 #123

The tobacco industry is not interested in stopping smoking dogman Jan 2013 #124

Its not that voluntary creeksneakers2 Jan 2013 #185

what about people who drink? what about people who take drugs? robinlynne Jan 2013 #146

The causal link is nowhere near as strong. nt geek tragedy Jan 2013 #163

what? robinlynne Jan 2013 #181

What about all the money the states got from tobacco companies to offset the cost of healthcare? okaawhatever Jan 2013 #29

Alcohol is more complicated because there are some health benefits pnwmom Jan 2013 #38

What about other highly addictive substances 4Q2u2 Jan 2013 #40

Excellent question! Wind Dancer Jan 2013 #74

Thank You 4Q2u2 Jan 2013 #98

Who would admit to illegal drug use? dkf Jan 2013 #204

I have done everything I can to create for my patients a disincentive for smoking. Aristus Jan 2013 #44

Are you not more concerned that your patients are incentivised to lie to you? dogman Jan 2013 #61

Most of my patients who smoke are pretty up-front about it. Aristus Jan 2013 #63

If they say they don't, does that mean you will indicate otherwise? dogman Jan 2013 #65

Medical charts include spaces for subjective information, i.e.: "I don't smoke", as well Aristus Jan 2013 #66

Seems like this could be a pain for you if this issue blows up. dogman Jan 2013 #79

I'll roll with it. Aristus Jan 2013 #82

You know, there might have been something to all the bitching the right was doing. MrSlayer Jan 2013 #59

I think you might be right. Skip Intro Jan 2013 #130

This is reality: the choices made by smokers are expensive for the society flamingdem Jan 2013 #62

oh really? We are the reason health care costs so much/ And yet europeans smoke more and health care robinlynne Jan 2013 #148

Second hand smoke alone is hurting more than just the smoker flamingdem Jan 2013 #157

changing the subject? Yes I deny it. my stepfather was the oncology researcher who robinlynne Jan 2013 #174

Stop smoking. RedCappedBandit Jan 2013 #67

No baby, I love the way your ass drags across the floor ! RagAss Jan 2013 #68

This is a good idea IMO bluestater1966fgs Jan 2013 #75

Good. Why should we subsidize their self-pollution? Nt geek tragedy Jan 2013 #77

Not new at all spedtr90 Jan 2013 #80

Good. If you wanna fill everyone else's nose with your smoke... OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #83

I'm all for it if it discourages tobacco addiction.... mike_c Jan 2013 #102

If only. dogman Jan 2013 #111

I have an answer: Impose a National Sales Tax on Cigarettes Yavin4 Jan 2013 #107

The price of cigarettes in Texas is around $50 a carton and one carton a week is $2600 a year. Thinkingabout Jan 2013 #112

Then NY taxes them. dogman Jan 2013 #117

States can impose their own sales taxes if they want Yavin4 Jan 2013 #132

Is this just for tobacco products Revanchist Jan 2013 #108

I made the point upthread that simply testing for nicotine Mariana Jan 2013 #135

Well, then the smokers better grow some will power and quit cold-turkey. OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #160

What smokers are you talking about? Mariana Jan 2013 #169

Thank you for proving JoeyT Jan 2013 #191

we don't have this craziness riverbendviewgal Jan 2013 #110

Cheaper life and health policies for non-smokers are enforceable. If the health problem or death libdem4life Jan 2013 #113

This is idffernt LOWer premiums for some people, as opposed to raising premiums for others. robinlynne Jan 2013 #149

Like I said, I could understand health, but apparently smokers have some relevance to auto insurance libdem4life Jan 2013 #151

Weird, I haven't heard of it with auto insurance. Mariana Jan 2013 #156

I've had AAA for years and use their Road Service, but nothing else. libdem4life Jan 2013 #159

I smoked 22 years...this is a reasonable thing alcibiades_mystery Jan 2013 #118

Amen! +1000 SouthernDonkey Jan 2013 #194

This is not about decreasing smoking, but protecting profits. eom TransitJohn Jan 2013 #129

Strange. BlueCheese Jan 2013 #133

The Future of Healthcare Will Be About Prevention Yavin4 Jan 2013 #134

death is not preventable. if one thing doesn't get you, the other thing will. it's actually HiPointDem Jan 2013 #153

Highly Unhealthy Lifestyles Costs A Lot of Money to Treat Yavin4 Jan 2013 #158

hmm, how to prevent old age....? HiPointDem Jan 2013 #161

You're Being Obtuse n/t Yavin4 Jan 2013 #164

actually not, since the bulk of medical costs are incurred in the last couple years of life. Of HiPointDem Jan 2013 #165

Healt Care Costs Are Skyrocketing Because People Seek Last Minute Treatment Yavin4 Jan 2013 #166

baloney. smoking rates peaked for men in the 40s/50s, with 67 percent of men smoking. for women, HiPointDem Jan 2013 #168

Thank-you. As a smoker, I doubt I will ever need a transplant. THAT is expensive! robinlynne Jan 2013 #177

I don't smoke, I never have customerserviceguy Jan 2013 #155

yes, & yes. it's a very slippery slope & it's so weird to see all the democrats lining up to cheer. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #162

I suspect a lot of them are ex-smokers leftstreet Jan 2013 #167

marijuana causes lung disease & increases health care costs. just off yourself now & decrease HiPointDem Jan 2013 #170

I agree, but it's also the money laundry_queen Jan 2013 #196

Great observation customerserviceguy Jan 2013 #206

I asked my Doctor for a prescription for Chantix.............his answer mrmpa Jan 2013 #192

The 6-figure medical bill my mom racked up from Emphysema justifies it. TheBlackAdder Jan 2013 #202

considering that a simple broken leg can rack up a five-figure bill and that there are plenty of HiPointDem Jan 2013 #219

Perhaps his habits contributed to his wifes death? TheBlackAdder Jan 2013 #224

i doubt it. colon cancer, & she didn't allow smoking in the house. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #225

We have no idea what really went on in that household. nt TheBlackAdder Jan 2013 #227

uh, I have a very good idea what went on, since i knew them. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #228

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ sylvi Jan 2013 #209

Thank you. If this is any indication, we're well on our way to 100% individualized, for profit HiPointDem Jan 2013 #213

So, People Shouldn't be Forced to Wear Seat Belts or Motorcycle Helmets Either? Yavin4 Jan 2013 #226

Good! xoom Jan 2013 #210

This is how INSURANCE works--"actuarial principles". We should've enacted HEALTHCARE, instead. nt Romulox Jan 2013 #229