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renie408

(9,854 posts)
121. No
Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:31 AM
Dec 2012

Last edited Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:47 AM - Edit history (1)

I have to go make pancakes, so this is a quick answer.

My position is that human nature will not allow something like what you are describing to survive for long. The lack of structure itself makes it hard to defend and eventually, given the number of us crammed on here, somebody is likely to look over and want what you have. Besides,I would guess that internal strife might also tend to rear it's ugly head. Yeah, you could expel those that do not work and play well with others, but you are still going to have a hard time keeping that kind of 'system' working.

I have not said it was not admirable, simply impractical. You have no idea where I am coming from because you started with the premise that I was ignorant and unenlightened and have never looked any further.

I have not made an argument. YOU are the one with the rigid position you are attempting (seriously poorly) to defend. I get that you think you are all that and a bag of chips, enlightened and superior, but so far that is the only thing you have managed to impart with any persuasion.

I am supposed to be putting my boots on and in the egalitarian system of our house, if I get busted on the computer, I am going to get yelled at. But, I wanted to throw in here that (theoretically) in the current democratic system we have, it is the duty of government to regulate corporations. Your disdainful cynicism aside, I believe that given all the information a democratic society will create rules and elect leaders who will act in their best interests in the long run. It is messy and it is flawed, but I believe that it works. I am not un-idealistic. I believe that what was initially set up in this country is a good, working governing model. I do concede that it is currently not working quite as well as I would like. But I also believe that the best way to fix it is from within.

You said somewhere that you are participating as little as possible in this society. You have passionately stated that we are morally responsible to move toward the anarchist ideal you espouse. What are you doing to promote that and what form does your lack of participation take? Do you pay taxes? Do you get your car plated and have a driver's license? Do you obey stated laws where applicable? If the sole form of your lack of participation is a refusal to vote...what good is that doing? (I am assuming you don't vote, if I am wrong, sorry)

Here's the deal....you may feel that your position is the right one, supported fully by some moral imperative. You may feel that your ideals make you superior to me. But in the end, it takes a practical person to implement ideals. At some point, if you really believe all this stuff, you are going to have to start walking the walk and not just talking the talk. And in the meantime, you might try not pissing on every person that does not share your beliefs. Because the other thing a movement needs is members. Driving everyone away who isn't just like you isn't exactly a brilliant way to start.

Me too alcibiades_mystery Dec 2012 #1
Well, hell -- me three! villager Dec 2012 #3
Me too! burrowowl Dec 2012 #75
Good luck with that. renie408 Dec 2012 #2
Riddle me this, Batman: What good have leaders done? Taverner Dec 2012 #5
Hey!! You should lead that revolt!! ...no...wait.... renie408 Dec 2012 #18
+1 Johonny Dec 2012 #25
lol Hydra Dec 2012 #45
+ 2. BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #76
Ha ha ha...plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose!!!! MADem Dec 2012 #79
“The past is never dead. It’s not even past.” n/t jtuck004 Dec 2012 #94
The people never would have marched without the leaders exhorting them to jtuck004 Dec 2012 #59
The marchers made the most difference tho Taverner Dec 2012 #64
The "marchers" didn't, because people don't, spontaneously erupt into contradicting jtuck004 Dec 2012 #67
Anarchy doesn't mean no leaders Leopolds Ghost Dec 2012 #71
Ok, ty. n/t jtuck004 Dec 2012 #93
You merely expose your profound ignorance. n/t Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #73
It's profound ignorance to think that anarchy renie408 Dec 2012 #81
Please see Spain 1936 - 1939. Noam Chomsky gave a very enlightening talk on how Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #82
You say 'flippant' like it was a bad thing. renie408 Dec 2012 #85
Anarchy is not lack of structure. That is antinomianism or autonomism Leopolds Ghost Dec 2012 #90
Anarchy is freedom from government. renie408 Dec 2012 #92
Freedom from governance is not absence of leadership. The essential difference is that anarchy, Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #96
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. renie408 Dec 2012 #99
Words do indeed have specific meanings, you just don't understand them. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #105
Is it typical anarchist fashion to ignore renie408 Dec 2012 #108
We both do in our ways. He has tenure at MIT and I simply don't participate in this Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #114
I don't have anybody on 'ignore'. renie408 Dec 2012 #118
Your position regarding the Spanish Anarchists boils down to might makes right. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #120
No renie408 Dec 2012 #121
Human nature allowed for just this kind of communal based culture for 40,000 years. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #137
So, why do you think that it is in the natures of chimpanzees to go to war renie408 Dec 2012 #138
It isn't. There is a big difference between acquisitive violence and organized slaughter. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #140
Also... renie408 Dec 2012 #139
You mean the three years where 1,000,000 people were killed and the country was destroyed? Throd Dec 2012 #97
Yes. The other part you were never taught, or most likely never even heard of. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #98
I think his point is that if you have to kill a million people, it ain't exactly Utopia. renie408 Dec 2012 #100
It wasn't the anarchists that were killing a million people, that was the revolution they weren't Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #103
Ok... renie408 Dec 2012 #106
So your position is that you choose to ignore the living testimony of those that were there, Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #112
Again with the picking and choosing definitions... renie408 Dec 2012 #113
Wouldn't you like to know. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #115
I am not the one who started this entire discussion renie408 Dec 2012 #119
Then you are also anti-statist. banned from Kos Dec 2012 #4
Not necessarily alcibiades_mystery Dec 2012 #7
+100 Taverner Dec 2012 #15
Anti-Westphalian-nation-state, you might say (nt) Recursion Dec 2012 #35
The state would not be necesarry if we could control our corporations Taverner Dec 2012 #9
The Wealth of Nations and the Declaration of Indepdence were published in the same year Recursion Dec 2012 #126
Iceland does a tolerably good job having a classless society Exultant Democracy Dec 2012 #6
Iceland has a population of 300K people Spider Jerusalem Dec 2012 #10
But - they are eliminating "leadership" Taverner Dec 2012 #13
No, they aren't Spider Jerusalem Dec 2012 #16
Iceland is eliminating the idea of leadership Taverner Dec 2012 #11
Then it sounds like you need to update that passport!! renie408 Dec 2012 #21
A love it or leave it post. I forgot how annoying those are. white_wolf Dec 2012 #28
+100 Taverner Dec 2012 #36
No - America, if any place, can understand Anarchism better than any country Taverner Dec 2012 #37
Don't forget the Wobblies! One Big Union. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2012 #44
The IWW! Taverner Dec 2012 #57
Every American should keep their passport up to date. Far to few americans travel abroad. Exultant Democracy Dec 2012 #50
Except that will never happen. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2012 #8
Sigh - yes, you are right. But that can't stop me from dreaming. Taverner Dec 2012 #12
What kind of Anarchist? JaneyVee Dec 2012 #14
Anarcho-Syndicalist Taverner Dec 2012 #17
The best kind! JaneyVee Dec 2012 #19
How many Anarchists does it take to screw in a light bulb? WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #20
Correction: Screw you(r own light bulb in)! Hydra Dec 2012 #46
Depends on the size of the light bulb Leopolds Ghost Dec 2012 #70
Well us commies know the difference......... socialist_n_TN Dec 2012 #22
What's the difference between your position and a Libertarian Socialist? Xithras Dec 2012 #23
Libertarian Socialism is pretty close to what I believe Taverner Dec 2012 #29
I think Anarcho-Syndicalism is a set of libertarian socialism. white_wolf Dec 2012 #31
So you're trying to define 'anarchism'. randome Dec 2012 #24
No - I am trying to define myself. Taverner Dec 2012 #26
Got it. Just curious. randome Dec 2012 #32
"All they do is bring down productivity" NoOneMan Dec 2012 #27
Because if a worker is concerned with productivity... Taverner Dec 2012 #33
Thats not what I want, no NoOneMan Dec 2012 #38
Indeed! immoderate Dec 2012 #53
Without a power structure threatening deprivation, or worse, this too is a self-correcting problem. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #83
I think there's a "zero work" strain of anarchism... Comrade Grumpy Dec 2012 #65
Anarcho-primitivism is more what I am referring to NoOneMan Dec 2012 #68
How many people will die in the process anarcho-primitivsm? white_wolf Dec 2012 #109
How many people die currently? NoOneMan Dec 2012 #122
I disagree with you. I think Democratic Socialism can use technology correctly. white_wolf Dec 2012 #135
No, thats not the framework Im looking at things from NoOneMan Dec 2012 #136
I believe that we are all aready our own authorities. ZombieHorde Dec 2012 #30
+100 Taverner Dec 2012 #34
I think you're describing a natural human instinct for not wanting to be bossed around by limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #39
+100 Taverner Dec 2012 #41
Sorry, buddy. Doesn't work. sibelian Dec 2012 #40
How can you tolerate being bossed around without a plan change this? Taverner Dec 2012 #42
Well, sir, I don't like it. But... sibelian Dec 2012 #43
You found a good boss. Guess what? That great boss is a CO-WORKER!!! Taverner Dec 2012 #49
Ahhhhhh. sibelian Dec 2012 #58
Hey Taverner, Me Too... Tace Dec 2012 #47
Cheers! Taverner Dec 2012 #48
I've seen that sort of thing too easily gamed & the result was that those least equipped to deal patrice Dec 2012 #51
And all hell would break loose. babylonsister Dec 2012 #52
So you're saying that without the threat of punishment, you would somehow go berserk? n/t Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #84
What do you think of Kropotkin's ideas then? Stargleamer Dec 2012 #54
I like Kropotkin Taverner Dec 2012 #56
Kropotkin was the guy who was anti-religion right? Leopolds Ghost Dec 2012 #62
Back then the church served the rich Taverner Dec 2012 #63
A friend of mine who may or may not be religious Leopolds Ghost Dec 2012 #69
Take me to your leader. Iggo Dec 2012 #55
Step into this sphere, you'll find him in the corner. n/t Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #74
Fuck Tha GA Leopolds Ghost Dec 2012 #60
I was an anarchist once, then I turned 14 CBGLuthier Dec 2012 #61
And became an anarcho-syndicalist? Leopolds Ghost Dec 2012 #78
Junior high gym classes sucked enough the first time around. (nt) Posteritatis Dec 2012 #66
As an egalitarian I have always liked the anarchist system. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #72
I used to be one of those Shivering Jemmy Dec 2012 #77
"I is a princess of chaos and I is VERY IMPORTANT and we wants Hell too! sibelian Dec 2012 #80
Quakers are leaderless quaker bill Dec 2012 #86
Excellent and interesting post. Thank you. nt woo me with science Dec 2012 #88
Part of the problem with America right now woo me with science Dec 2012 #87
Well, you know what they say Leopolds Ghost Dec 2012 #89
Occupy. We have no leaders ~ We are all leaders. Zorra Dec 2012 #91
+1000 Taverner Dec 2012 #95
Where are you posting from? renie408 Dec 2012 #111
Lovely post. Thank you. woo me with science Dec 2012 #101
A lot of people have a difficult time wrapping their heads around this concept. Thanks for putting Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #116
Has Occupy brought about any change? wtmusic Dec 2012 #123
Your not an Anarchist, your Utopian . orpupilofnature57 Dec 2012 #102
I'm both - so? Taverner Dec 2012 #104
See you in the next world where Humans don't elevate scum above orpupilofnature57 Dec 2012 #117
Or we gradually work twards the goal, expecting to see none of it in our lifetimes Taverner Dec 2012 #132
You mean like Bane advocated? NashvilleLefty Dec 2012 #107
Bane? you mean Batman Bane? white_wolf Dec 2012 #110
Meh, those who shun leaders are the first ones that want to lead. Javaman Dec 2012 #124
I am an Arachnist wtmusic Dec 2012 #125
All hail the spider god! Taverner Dec 2012 #133
why not move to Iraq? samsingh Dec 2012 #127
That's just stupid. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2012 #129
not as stupid as wanting no leadership and wanting anarchy without understanding its consequences samsingh Dec 2012 #130
Wow...you need to get a dictonary bro Taverner Dec 2012 #131
okay - i'll do some reading samsingh Dec 2012 #134
Just remember that Anarchy is often confused with Nihilism n/t intaglio Dec 2012 #128
Or another way to put that chrisknight02 Jan 2013 #141
+1000....welcome to DU! Taverner Jan 2013 #142
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