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mzteris

(16,232 posts)
171. "is it rape?"
Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:13 PM
Jan 2012

here's a post from the "old DU" dated 11/07: current additions in italics

is it rape when a man wheedles and begs and pleads incessantly for hours, days unless the woman gives in and "has sex" even though she don't want to?

is it reasonable for a man, whose SO for whatever reason (physical, emotional, psychological) is unable to freely have relations, to go out and "get it" elsewhere? Is it HER fault? Is he justified because she won't give it up? Because, after all, men NEED to get laid, right? If he's not getting what he NEEDS from the relationship then it's okay for him to seek it elsewhere. However, if she's not getting what she needs from the relationship, it is NOT okay for her to seek it elsewhere, of course. and then he wants to come home and do it and godforbid you should be upset that he had sex with some stranger - hooker, stripper, whoever - and you KNOW he won't use a condom!

is it rape if he browbeats and threatens to leave if she doesn't do it? and frequently packs up his clothes in the car leaving the children crying please don't make daddy leave, cause of course he tells them it's mommy's fault he has to go so you give in and do it

is it rape if he er - "insists" that she have sex. as in - you know - you say NO - and he does it anyway

is it rape if she wakes up to find that he's having sex with her?

is it rape if - after repeated incidents (wheedling, pleading, threatening, insulting, whining) she'll finally say - just do it. hurry up and get it over with. and just lays there and he does it and then gets pissed because she didn't enjoy it? and she gets up and throws up and hides in the bathroom until he falls asleep?

when he's drunk. when he's mad. when's he sad. when he's happy. when he's BORED. sex sex sex sex sex sex.

Like it's the ONLY thing that matters.

If she feels like a blow up a doll, a piece of meat, if she feels like he doesn't give a DAMN about her or her feelings, if he's oh so very good at telling her how much he f'ing HATES her and how she ruined his gd life! but oh yeah, how about a blow, honey? C'mon, you know you want it. . .



When it's got to the point when he's drinking that she adds a little something to his beer so he'll please dear god fall asleep quickly. And he does on the couch and she leaves him there and goes to bed only to be awakened about 3 am by his pawing so she says she has to go to the bathroom and sits there in the dark using a towel as a blanket 'cause it's damn cold waiting waiting waiting for him to fall back asleep. And as she starts to walk back into the bedroom she realizes what the hell am I doing? if I go in there he'll just wake up now or in the morning and start in again, so she goes downstairs and sleep on the couch. And he wakes up the next morning confused a little bit but wants her to "bring him coffee". Don't worry about the kids, they're still asleep. So she makes sure to wake them up as soon as possible. But then he says, turn on the tv for 'em and lock the door. simple.

And she gets to the point that she keep her kids in the house and won't let them go outside to play or to a friends house when he's home, because if he gets her alone, he's going to START.

then there's the night he chases you around the house threatening to f'ing kill you if you don't just f him and you wind up hiding behind a piece of furniture all night long in the middle of winter freezing because you're afraid to come out.

When you try and try and try to get him to understand that if he would just stop acting in such a manner, then maybe you could have normal relations at some point but as long as he acting the way he is, you just CAN'T - and he gets mad and calls you a frigid bitch and leaves for the strip club. And then comes home and wants it 'cause - well he was at the strip club and he's all h-rny so you should just DO IT whether you FING WANT TO OR NOT!

Begging, pleading, wheedling, threatening, crying, storming out, coming back, yelling, screaming, name-calling . . . until she "gives in".

Tell me, is it rape?

But if men stopped raping then women wouldn't get so many lectures and blame-the-victim anymore. Quantess Jan 2012 #1
Indeed. I'm all for teaching basic safety and awareness, which are good things for everyone to learn arcane1 Jan 2012 #2
How so? I see the OP as promoting a way to start addressing the cause -- Remember Me Jan 2012 #52
I was generalizing, not speaking specifically to the OP n/t arcane1 Jan 2012 #119
Yes. The subject line is simply misleading. Orsino Jan 2012 #163
Can we do both? Hugabear Jan 2012 #3
Yeah, when people don't even know what rape is, redqueen Jan 2012 #7
can you point me somewhere reputable and non-anectdotal where the existence of date-rape is... ret5hd Jan 2012 #28
Expounded as in explained? redqueen Jan 2012 #29
well, just point me towards your best source, the on most likely to make me say... ret5hd Jan 2012 #34
Perhaps you could start here ... etherealtruth Jan 2012 #35
1 & 2 are completely anecdotal...a crackpot ga rep and a govt justice employee do not constitute... ret5hd Jan 2012 #40
Susan Estrich is a respected law professor etherealtruth Jan 2012 #42
this article does not speak to denial of date rape, but to minimalizing the crime. ret5hd Jan 2012 #43
Excuse me ...? etherealtruth Jan 2012 #44
"real and prevalent" to you... redqueen Jan 2012 #36
oops, replied to #35 instead of you. please forgive. ret5hd Jan 2012 #41
Not that the FBI is particularly "reputable," but they didn't admit there was such a thing Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #168
I was almost raped in college, and didn't realize it Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #61
That is very common. redqueen Jan 2012 #88
everything in our society directs, leads, conditions to this and we act like seabeyond Jan 2012 #92
That happened to me a few times laundry_queen Jan 2012 #120
It's so weird isn't it? For the longest time I felt that it was part of my role in life to Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #136
I agree. There is always value to teaching people how to avoid being victimized. yellowcanine Jan 2012 #11
Unfortunately, the blame DOES get put on the women by these "guides" Scootaloo Jan 2012 #13
Agreed. We can approach the problem from more than one angle. nt. Hosnon Jan 2012 #170
A balance approach is requried ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #4
Unfortunately people like the Dominique Strauss-Kahns of this world will never learn these lessons, Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #5
Is there a copy of the ad somewhere jberryhill Jan 2012 #6
This article has a picture. redqueen Jan 2012 #8
Oh, wow, that's worse than I thought jberryhill Jan 2012 #9
they sexualized the girl while addressing rape. ONE of the many examples fed to our seabeyond Jan 2012 #94
headline is not very pleasant quinnox Jan 2012 #10
I agree it shouldn't be tossed around lightly. redqueen Jan 2012 #14
yup quinnox Jan 2012 #16
How not to get raped Zalatix Jan 2012 #12
How not to get the point Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #23
Not to speak for the poster you're responding to, mythology Jan 2012 #31
Still missing the point... redqueen Jan 2012 #33
You might as well try to educate lions not to prey on gazelles or whatever. Zalatix Jan 2012 #54
In other words, you're saying that Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #59
No, I am saying that people who are deviant are deviant. Zalatix Jan 2012 #64
Nonsense Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #68
how about if we simple change our language for our younger boys. make sure girl is enthusiastic seabeyond Jan 2012 #89
And stop telling girls it's bad to be that way. redqueen Jan 2012 #93
exactly allow a girl ownership of her sexuality. which is exactly opposite what society does today seabeyond Jan 2012 #96
Enthusiasm shouldn't be confused with consenting. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #98
i would say, when she says stop, there is no longer the enthusiasm. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #101
And that goes right back to the original point Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #118
i agree with all of it until the end seabeyond Jan 2012 #122
Thank you. Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #114
the point is, and must be clear. because a girl says yes seabeyond Jan 2012 #115
that's pretty smart. nt arely staircase Jan 2012 #198
I guess you didn't read what I said. Anyone who fails to obey "no" Zalatix Jan 2012 #133
I did read what you wrote Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #159
How do you suppose to educate someone who excuses spousal rape? Zalatix Jan 2012 #169
First of all, unless you've been there, don't presume to know what it's like Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #174
Excuse me? You're the one cursing and getting irrational. I don't need to know what it's like Zalatix Jan 2012 #175
I am far from irrational. Cursing does not equate to irrationality. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #185
i read it. what a post. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #187
That is the best post I've ever seen on DU. redqueen Jan 2012 #188
This post deserves to be an OP varelse Jan 2012 #197
+1 redqueen Jan 2012 #210
THANK YOU! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ uppityperson Jan 2012 #209
rape most certainly is deviant arely staircase Jan 2012 #199
in their mind, they are not interpreting it as rape. i dont know why people dont get this. seabeyond Jan 2012 #200
Check out the seduction community.. redqueen Jan 2012 #204
i do not know what you are talking. i saw a bit on a thread. seduction has never worked for me. seabeyond Jan 2012 #206
It means if a woman starts resisting your advances for sex redqueen Jan 2012 #207
ya. that. eeew. it was in all the movies. it always made me uncomfortable. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #211
im sure all sorts of deviants, not only rapists, arely staircase Jan 2012 #216
"Rape" as in "real rape" is "deviant." Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #218
one is either a rapist or not rapist. and if one is a rapist one is deviant - regardless of arely staircase Jan 2012 #222
The problem with this kind of thinking Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #231
uh, you are the one asserting that there is a third category (outside of rapist or not rapist), arely staircase Jan 2012 #233
I think you've completely misunderstood Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #238
as i suspected nt arely staircase Jan 2012 #240
Actually, if you put everything I've posted together... Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #242
seriously, can't you whittle this down to a succinct statement? like, two to three arely staircase Jan 2012 #243
No. I'm not you. Thank the goddess. n/t Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #244
better luck next time. nt arely staircase Jan 2012 #245
I'm not a psychologist, but. . . . Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #217
this is the problem and the refusal to allow this concept to be realized. for whatever reason, this seabeyond Jan 2012 #219
I think in some cases -- maybe here, maybe not -- it's fear Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #220
i think this should be the conversation, the starting point, in the next thread. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #221
Excellent post. ronnie624 Jan 2012 #152
The problem is that boys and men know it all, too, Lance_Boyle Jan 2012 #82
I dont think they do. redqueen Jan 2012 #84
It's NOT a tiny tiny minority Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #102
Again, you're making the assumption Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #45
That is superb -- brilliant too. Remember Me Jan 2012 #55
Because "assholes who rape" will stop being assholes if only they knew better? mistertrickster Jan 2012 #67
you are more concerned about the rad fems than girls/women being raped. and a boys/mans life ruined seabeyond Jan 2012 #91
exactly Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #103
i have a couple sons. i have a couple of nieces. you can damn well bet have discussed ownership seabeyond Jan 2012 #105
K&R Solly Mack Jan 2012 #15
My sister has 4 daughters - all of them small in stature Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #17
And all those various things, those "safety measures" prove Remember Me Jan 2012 #56
I know. It's a bit of a war zone for us. nt Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #58
I plan on doing both with my children. ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #18
+1000 Remember Me Jan 2012 #235
rec x eleventy billion lapislzi Jan 2012 #19
People don't understand how painful their words can be. Marrah_G Jan 2012 #20
I've never been in a bar-fight. mistertrickster Jan 2012 #21
Please read the essay Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #24
Thank you. redqueen Jan 2012 #25
Looks to me like you're both telling me what I think and attacking me for it at the same time. mistertrickster Jan 2012 #65
No, I most certainly did not tell you what you think. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #79
You seem to be assuming that women don't do anything to prevent rape lunatica Jan 2012 #86
Excellent response. n/t Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #104
"I also don't know any women who go to bars alone." Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #117
i lived in reno, a 24 hour town, late shift. i went into bars alone. i had no problem, nor felt seabeyond Jan 2012 #124
I too lived in Reno for a few years; greiner3 Jan 2012 #166
i would be served the booze. a lot. for free. lol lol. seabeyond Jan 2012 #167
Not all men are rapists -- BUT Remember Me Jan 2012 #236
Good idea treestar Jan 2012 #22
BRAVO Ebony Magazine. Matariki Jan 2012 #26
Jackson Katz has been trying to change this paradigm for some time, too. PeaceNikki Jan 2012 #27
Oh yes, I love his work... redqueen Jan 2012 #30
Here's another I literally just found that I think you'll enjoy: PeaceNikki Jan 2012 #32
Evidence-free conclusion . . . mistertrickster Jan 2012 #69
It's called male privilege Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #80
get a girl drunk on a date, men pay for it one way or another, no doesnt mean no.... the simple seabeyond Jan 2012 #99
This bears repeating: "prevention in not really prevention; rather, it's risk reduction," Remember Me Jan 2012 #241
k/r fishwax Jan 2012 #37
I'd like to clear something up. redqueen Jan 2012 #38
I am incredulous etherealtruth Jan 2012 #46
Uh, they're into denying ANY Remember Me Jan 2012 #57
I know etherealtruth Jan 2012 #172
Part of the response may be the caption - which wasn't limited to advertisements. Ms. Toad Jan 2012 #47
My daughters do not need ad campaigns, as I can provide them with basic, common sense advice myself. Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #50
college campus's now have a team of jr and sr that goes to these parties to watch out for the seabeyond Jan 2012 #97
This terrifies me. stevenleser Jan 2012 #157
All of the above. n/t Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #161
so much is about her own empowerment and confidence and that is gained in time. seabeyond Jan 2012 #164
As part of every graduation gift for young women, I give them Gavin DeBecker's "The Gift of Fear" riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #229
I entirely agree with the concept, but seriously lack the faith in testosterone laden persons to Lionessa Jan 2012 #39
You do realize how offensive that is, right? redqueen Jan 2012 #138
agreed. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #143
"anti-rape campaigns that target young men and boys" vs arely staircase Jan 2012 #48
Fully agree. While boys need to be taught that "no means no" Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #49
they are both very important things to teach - nevermind public service announcements arely staircase Jan 2012 #192
This. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2012 #77
Why is this so hard to understand? EOTE Jan 2012 #127
very good points. i do believe education (of boys and men) can prevent rapes arely staircase Jan 2012 #186
K&R! Louisiana1976 Jan 2012 #51
I suspect this has been asked before but... randome Jan 2012 #53
Because I find them worthy of discussion. redqueen Jan 2012 #81
It's a huge social problem chrisa Jan 2012 #112
Exactly, it's men that need to be told to not rape. Odin2005 Jan 2012 #60
Great idea. Tell bankers not to foreclose on people's houses while you're at it. nt mistertrickster Jan 2012 #75
Correction: it's rapists that need to be told to not rape. Lance_Boyle Jan 2012 #83
Once again, like it or not, ALL MEN are potential rapists Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #106
Or ask my friend who was raped by her BFs friend. Odin2005 Jan 2012 #108
I guess what I dislike is this attitude Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #110
Silly Analogy ProfessorGAC Jan 2012 #128
You're not a rapist, but you are a potential rapist Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #130
Tansy, I'm going to be blunt. Occulus Jan 2012 #140
I have merely stated facts Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #142
Interesting to see the insults thrown around... redqueen Jan 2012 #144
Well? What the hell do you expect? Occulus Jan 2012 #147
*sigh* redqueen Jan 2012 #148
See below. Occulus Jan 2012 #150
It doesn't make any difference. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #160
Rape is about power, not sex FrodosPet Jan 2012 #246
That's just blatantly offensive Lance_Boyle Jan 2012 #134
Lance, if you go back to the sex/women's issue threads of the past several weeks, Occulus Jan 2012 #135
It's not offensive and it's not wrong -- ALL WOMEN are potential false rape accusers Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #137
Apparently your logic is highly offensive. redqueen Jan 2012 #139
You mean, the thread that just got locked? Occulus Jan 2012 #145
POTENTIAL. You want to go look that up, or keep waving the strawman around? redqueen Jan 2012 #146
Distinction without a difference. Occulus Jan 2012 #149
We're done. redqueen Jan 2012 #151
There you go again Occulus Jan 2012 #154
I would say it's hard to believe that you actually truly do think... redqueen Jan 2012 #156
Saying "all men are potential rapists" does the trick rather nicely. Occulus Jan 2012 #158
No, it's just as logical. And thanks for the nasty picture, too... redqueen Jan 2012 #153
That picture has fuck-all to do with the way a woman looks Occulus Jan 2012 #155
Let's see. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #162
no they aren't, that is a hateful thing to say. arely staircase Jan 2012 #189
I never said women can't or don't coerce or pester partners into sex Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #191
Just to clarify -- You do understand the difference between "potential" and "future," don't you? Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #193
i think you are being a bit more clear, i think arely staircase Jan 2012 #196
All WOMEN can potentially falsely accuse men of rape. cottonseed Jan 2012 #232
Yeah, I know. I said that. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #239
Correction: Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #121
this is the newest study and i cannot find others i have seen on this. it matters with study, seabeyond Jan 2012 #126
Yes, I know Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #129
ahhhhh. really? wow. it was all layed out. a number of different studies seabeyond Jan 2012 #131
Try using the Wayback Machine or Google Cache... justiceischeap Jan 2012 #132
Thanks for posting that link. redqueen Jan 2012 #141
If there is any one person who explodes the "scary monster" myth Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #194
Yeah, society doesn't want to go down that road yet apparently... redqueen Jan 2012 #205
k&r uppityperson Jan 2012 #62
This article baldly states that "it's not effective" - any reason to believe that? Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2012 #63
Um, maybe if it were effective, women wouldn't still be getting raped? Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #66
"Only about 20% of rapes are reported to law enforcement" mistertrickster Jan 2012 #72
Many rapes are reported to other agencies besides law enforcement Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #73
Then those agencies are covering up a crime that should be prosecuted. nt mistertrickster Jan 2012 #74
Many rapes aren't reported BECAUSE they can't be prosecuted Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #76
Tansy you've done a terrific job of making your point on this thread lunatica Jan 2012 #87
+1 redqueen Jan 2012 #90
Thank you, Lunatica, and redqueen, too Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #107
I think you've obviously got the bona fides to show you know what you're talking about lunatica Jan 2012 #109
What are YOU Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #123
I would imagine if a woman goes to the hospital after she's been raped justiceischeap Jan 2012 #100
That is not logical, captain. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2012 #113
a very large group of boys/men you do not address are those that dont see rape, as rape. seabeyond Jan 2012 #116
Yes Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #125
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #71
I heard a LOT of advice when Kobe, Tyson, and Roethlisberger were accused. U4ikLefty Jan 2012 #70
AG Holder announces new FBI definition of rape niyad Jan 2012 #78
K DeathToTheOil Jan 2012 #85
I am so sick and tired of the women being blamed for this LynneSin Jan 2012 #95
I think a "don't rape" campaign could be effective, chrisa Jan 2012 #111
I am way late to this party. Busy few days, but have to add my "voice" of support. nt riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #165
"is it rape?" mzteris Jan 2012 #171
Thank you for posting that here. (nt) redqueen Jan 2012 #173
I'm sorry but a lot of us men would never dream of forcing ourselves on a woman and find this ddeclue Jan 2012 #176
1. There is no broad brushing of "all men as rapists". redqueen Jan 2012 #177
can I call you a whaambulance for telling you the truth? ddeclue Jan 2012 #178
No but you can use one yourself for your excuses for rejection. redqueen Jan 2012 #179
reply ddeclue Jan 2012 #180
i married my friend. i have always liked nice guys, wont accept anything less in my life seabeyond Jan 2012 #182
I've always preferred being sober Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #190
... it just gets worse, doesn't it? redqueen Jan 2012 #183
... ddeclue Jan 2012 #230
Men AND women get drunk as an excuse to have sex Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #202
If you *assume* that a woman gets drunk in order to have sex with you, redqueen Jan 2012 #203
Again, I don't see why this is so difficult... Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #208
" a lot of women INTENTIONALLY go out and get that drunk on purpose ... redqueen Jan 2012 #212
As I posted above, I think the poster is frustrated by some bad experiences Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #214
"too drunk for her own good" redqueen Jan 2012 #215
no I'm not saying most I am saying some... ddeclue Jan 2012 #228
You said "most". redqueen Jan 2012 #237
My rule is that she must be 1) more sober than me. 2) not have had more than 3 glasses of wine in ddeclue Jan 2012 #223
i think those are pretty good ground rules seabeyond Jan 2012 #224
actually I am such an easy drunk (and I am a relatively big guy) that 2 or 3 glasses and I have a ddeclue Jan 2012 #226
bah haha, see. i drink like you do. seabeyond Jan 2012 #227
I think you have entirely too broad a definition of "taking advantage of" Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #234
You should be honored that several women found you to be trustworthy friends Nikia Jan 2012 #184
that would be great if it wasn't ALWAYS the case. Women love to make friends with me. ddeclue Jan 2012 #225
I think you're broad brushing women based on some bad experiences Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #213
Sexual Assault Prevention Tips JNelson6563 Jan 2012 #181
Never. Iggo Jan 2012 #195
I agreed up until the part about consumption of alcohol Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #201
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Stop Telling Women How to...»Reply #171