General Discussion

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)

89. Define "we".

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:05 PM

Nov 2012

The place names in my state are named by the people here.

If you're concerned about the names your community gives to places and buildings, then by all means speak up.

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The idea that there are still parks and places named after Civil War Generals from the South [View all] Quixote1818 Nov 2012 OP

Wars leave quite a cultural impression, for good or ill. nt rrneck Nov 2012 #1

Making heroes of people that fought to keep you enslaved demhottie Nov 2012 #2

Why glorify them from any war? EarthGurl2012 Nov 2012 #3

Sherman Won And He Was Fighting Among Other Things To Free Black Folks DemocratSinceBirth Nov 2012 #123

Sherman also destroyed countless lives and property in the process Art_from_Ark Nov 2012 #159

On the latter point, neither did Washington or Jackson Scootaloo Nov 2012 #181

Washington raped his slaves demhottie Nov 2012 #183

Sherman is a mixed bag, though. Ken Burch Nov 2012 #205

"I will make this march and Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #226

In history, there are seldom real heroes. Only in mythology. Democracyinkind Nov 2012 #227

I think every "Main Street" in every southern city and town should be renamed "Sherman Street" madinmaryland Nov 2012 #177

No..."Liberation Street"...and be adjacent to Tubman/Douglass Square. Ken Burch Nov 2012 #206

Let the Old South have its memories. R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2012 #4

That old argument really burns me theHandpuppet Nov 2012 #218

I'm not a fan of the Old South by any stretch. R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2012 #241

Many people in the South seem to be unwilling to acknowledge that they lost the Civil War. luv_mykatz Nov 2012 #5

It really is not about loosing the war at all . . . EarthGurl2012 Nov 2012 #17

So the fact that my family has died at sea fighting wars for the entire history of this nation, Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #32

I would have to have move on defined to answer that one. EarthGurl2012 Nov 2012 #40

Well, just extend the analogy. I would be justified in hating all you fucking traitors Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #46

Sorry, you lost me at hating and fucking . . . EarthGurl2012 Nov 2012 #49

Too bad for you. If your sensibilities are so easily offended you don't stand a chance. n/t Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #51

Nothing about the Confederacy should still engender pride in people. WinkyDink Nov 2012 #110

Give Me a Break fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #126

That history was used to help create the KKK...an organization founded by those "rebels" Ken Burch Nov 2012 #212

ironically fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #220

By your logic customerserviceguy Nov 2012 #136

+1 Tunkamerica Nov 2012 #257

There's a huge memorial in DC named for a dude who owned hundreds of slaves. Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #6

But Washington did not commit treason. David__77 Nov 2012 #9

Actually, he did. Against the King. Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #12

If one is a partisan of the American Republic, then he did NOT commit treason. David__77 Nov 2012 #27

But even that correct, moral position depends on the view of the individual Kaleva Nov 2012 #30

But nobody is proposing to put a Washington Monument in the middle of London. NYC Liberal Nov 2012 #58

That may be true but the English Civil War has produced its' own set of controversial monuments Uncle Joe Nov 2012 #73

In some circles, there are some who mind digging up Cromwell again. AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #101

King George would disagree. nt. Recovered Repug Nov 2012 #13

Well, everyone is grateful for your input. Tunkamerica Nov 2012 #37

No, I think slavery is worse, though perhaps less pertinent to the discussion. David__77 Nov 2012 #68

And who called for an end to slavery and freed his slaves. fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #127

Washington did not free a single slave during his lifetime. Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #138

I thought you were talking about another one hughee99 Nov 2012 #169

That too. And he also raped his female slaves. (nt) Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #174

Oh, I'll Go You One Better ChoppinBroccoli Nov 2012 #7

That must just be SC. I've never even heard of it. But just looked it up Tunkamerica Nov 2012 #39

The absolutely funniest thing about SC Confederate Memorial Day is its date... Tom Ripley Nov 2012 #57

By law, they are considered US veterans. Kaleva Nov 2012 #8

Irrelevant. Most people of the South don't care about the names, just don't care. bluestate10 Nov 2012 #10

Most People of The South Don't Care About their Southern Historical Treasonous Leaders? fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #150

Unless you live aardvark401 Nov 2012 #11

Uh, no. defacto7 Nov 2012 #44

I was shocked to learn Mississippi celebrates Confederate Memorial Day. intheflow Nov 2012 #14

Most Confederate soldiers were not evil slaveholders. Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #18

Oh Good Grief fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #141

Most 18-year old Confederate conscripts did not own slaves. Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #148

Right fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #151

Do you understand what "conscripted" means? (nt) Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #152

right fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #154

In case you hadn't realized, you're losing this argument onenote Nov 2012 #202

LOL fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #219

Nah, just another person who understands history. onenote Nov 2012 #223

Oh...ok fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #224

Why can't they just use regular Memorial Day to commemorate their lost brethren? intheflow Nov 2012 #258

Why do people celebrate Columbus Day? Sadiedog Nov 2012 #15

Why do we glorify Washington and Jefferson? They each owned hundreds of slaves (nt) Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #20

I agree. Why? nt Sadiedog Nov 2012 #21

And Both Acknowledged the Pure Evil of Slavery fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #132

No they didn't, not during their lifetimes. General Lee *did* free his slaves, however. (nt) Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #137

Actually fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #139

See Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #140

And what part was not true? fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #142

Claiming that you find slavery repugnant, but keeping your slaves enslaved until after you die, Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #146

It was fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #153

Memorializing fallen soldiers is not the same as celebrating slavery or racism (nt) Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #155

You Remember Traitors fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #158

18-year old farmhands who happened to be born in the South and conscripted into the army Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #161

Yea Really fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #171

I remember a really funny comment Randi Rhodes made doing a show on racism. Hoyt Nov 2012 #231

Excellent point! Bake Nov 2012 #77

We don't; it's a generic "Presidents Day" now. Otherwise, Italian-Americans* celebrate their paisan. WinkyDink Nov 2012 #111

Uh, I believe that you billh58 Nov 2012 #245

There are Confederate cemeteries all over the South Fumesucker Nov 2012 #16

Many of our military bases are named after Confederate generals Kaleva Nov 2012 #19

That was one of my dad's JustAnotherGen Nov 2012 #66

Fort Rommel! :) pinboy3niner Nov 2012 #67

As Someone Born on One of Those Bases fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #191

all the more reason I'm glad I joined the Air Force. gejohnston Nov 2012 #247

No Civil War Heroes fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #254

It surprises me little to see so many "RKBA" Gungeon regulars taking the slave-holder's, i.e., apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #22

Well, work to change the law if you don't like it. Kaleva Nov 2012 #24

As noted: it surprises me little to see so many "RKBA'ers" rush to the aid of anything Confederate. apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #28

My guess is that President Obama and many Dems in Congress would support.. Kaleva Nov 2012 #34

Your "guess," of course, would be wrong: the Democratic Party has been in the forefront apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #42

Your'e trying to muddy the waters. Kaleva Nov 2012 #45

Nonsense: that is called "projection." You're trying to defend the Confederacy, and are now apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #47

Unable to answer my question? Kaleva Nov 2012 #70

Unable to refrain from defending the late Confederate States of America? apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #84

Have you ever read my posts in GC/RKBA? Kaleva Nov 2012 #87

1. The OP is about parks and places named after traitors, not Confederate "veterans," so this apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #99

The OP was about Confederate generals who, by law, are considered US veterans. Kaleva Nov 2012 #162

No, it was not: it had absolutely NOTHING to do with their status as "veterans." apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #166

It's one's personal opinion that they are traitors. By law, they are not. Kaleva Nov 2012 #170

Still dodging, and falsely at that. They are traitors "by law," since they had to seek pardons after apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #175

You are refering to events well over a 100 years ago. I'm refering to the current status. Kaleva Nov 2012 #192

Nope, that is not how it works: answer the question put to you. apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #194

I'll ask you again. Kaleva Nov 2012 #196

I'll ask you again for the fifth time in this thread: apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #197

Your comment Kaleva Nov 2012 #211

So, your answer is "I don't care." That's very curious, "moderate" or no. apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #213

This is a place where people can discuss what they are doing about what outrages them. Kaleva Nov 2012 #214

As already noted: what really irritates you is that you were not allowed to get away with diversion apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #215

It's human nature for someone to take action on what outrages them. Kaleva Nov 2012 #225

Again: what really irritates you is that you were not allowed to get away with diversion and apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #243

But you do nothing about what you say outrages you. Kaleva Nov 2012 #248

Sure I do. What really irritates you is that you were not allowed to get away with diversion apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #249

No-one has "defended the Confederacy". (Projection, indeed...) PavePusher Nov 2012 #72

Oh yes they have. Simply denying a plain, indisputable fact does not diminish the fact. Pro-tip. n/t apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #85

What "plain indisputable fact"? PavePusher Nov 2012 #86

If you have trouble manipulating your mouse to scroll up and down the screen, visit your apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #97

I've already read the comments. PavePusher Nov 2012 #103

"I can't seem to find it" - Perhaps the problem is visual, then. Lenscrafters? A new monitor? apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #105

Right fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #124

And that poster has spent a good deal of this sub-thread pretending that he can't "see" it... apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #125

defend? fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #129

If and only recognizing Zhukhov's strategies in '43 and '44 are a like defense of Soviet-style commu LanternWaste Nov 2012 #94

Benedict Arnold was a brilliant tactician, too: why not name an Army post after him? apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #100

Boadicea should not have a statue in Britain? Vlasov not in Russia? Broaden your historical perspec LanternWaste Nov 2012 #106

More deflection. Answer the question: should Benedict Arnold have a statue at West Point? apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #107

Wow glacierbay Nov 2012 #79

LOL fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #143

What else would you billh58 Nov 2012 #238

because that's their culture and heritage... BlueMan Votes Nov 2012 #23

You know, this is a stereotype. EarthGurl2012 Nov 2012 #33

Nope: it's a reality. Especially when it comes to the entire "RKBA" movement, which is a right-wing apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #35

Amen brother! Kingofalldems Nov 2012 #113

Thanks for saying so; I don't remember what we got cross-threaded about, but I apologize apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #133

actually- it's part of the culture and heritage scene from 'oh brother..." BlueMan Votes Nov 2012 #38

You know that a lot of us have actually lived there and seen the reality that still pervades Egalitarian Thug Nov 2012 #52

Right fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #135

You know this is from a movie, right? Tunkamerica Nov 2012 #41

Nope, sorry. EarthGurl2012 Nov 2012 #48

you don't get it SmileyRose Nov 2012 #25

Exactly what, pray-tell, doesn't the OP "get"? Please spell it out for us, specifically.... apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #31

Weee! Another thread offering the opportunity to bash the South! Trashing now....nt. OldDem2012 Nov 2012 #26

Lots of Teabaggers still want to fight that war sigmasix Nov 2012 #29

Teabaggers are everywhere. EarthGurl2012 Nov 2012 #36

Apparently lots of people on this board do as well, since there isn't a week that doesn't Tunkamerica Nov 2012 #43

Your heart is in the right place (I think) but you have a very poor understanding of the coalition_unwilling Nov 2012 #60

YUP! and don't forget their hero Ron Paul and David Duke were intertwined. graham4anything Nov 2012 #184

Because Lincoln in a move heal the country gave Confederate and Union vet equal status SpartanDem Nov 2012 #50

Well I live in Richmond, Va., and it is changing, and most say it's a good thing. WCLinolVir Nov 2012 #53

I grew up in Richmond fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #144

I know what you mean. WCLinolVir Nov 2012 #195

All True fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #221

Don't forget the Jefferson Davis Memorial Highways gort Nov 2012 #54

In NOVA! n/t godai Nov 2012 #82

I've had ancestors on both sides of the war, from the volunteer state. Neoma Nov 2012 #55

The reason is simple, we never forced the traitors to repent for their sins Hippo_Tron Nov 2012 #56

Not to get all theological on you, but I don't think you can force anyone to repent coalition_unwilling Nov 2012 #63

I think years of occupation and re-education would've made them get the message Hippo_Tron Nov 2012 #109

We have Robert E Lee High School here in San Antonio LeftInTX Nov 2012 #59

The Irony here Sherman A1 Nov 2012 #61

What do you mean by 'we,' white man? JK. On a serious note, I don't think having parks and coalition_unwilling Nov 2012 #62

They still fly the Confederate flag davidn3600 Nov 2012 #64

YES I agree. Same with those who still fly the Dixie Flag. Spits in the face of America & Blacks. graham4anything Nov 2012 #65

nothing wrong with remembering brokechris Nov 2012 #69

I'm bi-racial too JustAnotherGen Nov 2012 #71

And I was taught that we were all Americans--that we didn't let our brothers brokechris Nov 2012 #78

Very well said. Kudos to you. n/t PavePusher Nov 2012 #88

thank you brokechris Nov 2012 #117

That IS very well said JustAnotherGen Nov 2012 #91

I see nothing whatsoever funny brokechris Nov 2012 #119

Anyone who sees "zero difference" between Jefferson Davis and Adolf Hitler Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #160

I am Jewish and the connection between Ron/Rand Paul & Jorg Haider is very easy to see. graham4anything Nov 2012 #188

Anyone who declared war on America fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #122

Because most honestly didn't look at it that way. Xithras Nov 2012 #74

Mostly agree but MadrasT Nov 2012 #93

Ever been to Russia? Travelman Nov 2012 #75

There's a confederate soldier statue in York, ME.... MADem Nov 2012 #83

This message was self-deleted by its author Turbineguy Nov 2012 #76

Wow, there hasn't been a South bashing thread here in cordelia Nov 2012 #80

IMO those "memorials" are equivalent to Germans memorializing Nazis. Odin2005 Nov 2012 #81

So should any memorial for anyone who was a slaveholder be taken down? Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #90

Napoleonic statues too... LanternWaste Nov 2012 #95

All you have to do is wish for something, and the Internet can instantly make it come true, Odin2005 slackmaster Nov 2012 #108

Define "we". lumberjack_jeff Nov 2012 #89

Why glorify Washington and Jefferson? Why have them on bills? they were both slaveowners. nt raccoon Nov 2012 #92

And Robert Lee, unlike Washington and Jefferson, freed his slaves (nt) Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #116

i live in the south and they harbor a lot of pride in that fucked up war....people are strange spanone Nov 2012 #96

It's really stange/disgusting and a common characteristic of the bigots there. Hoyt Nov 2012 #230

The Civil War was a major national trauma, MadHound Nov 2012 #98

James Loewen's excellent book "Lies Across America" deals with this very topic arcane1 Nov 2012 #102

I own and display a piece of Robert E. Lee memorabilia Tree-Hugger Nov 2012 #104

Maybe neither man was angelic, but only one of them led troops to dissolve the theretofore Union. WinkyDink Nov 2012 #112

And another led the army of the South against nadinbrzezinski Nov 2012 #114

Exactly Tree-Hugger Nov 2012 #156

Hey, I have no problem with it either nadinbrzezinski Nov 2012 #165

Lots of shades of gray in the Civil War Tree-Hugger Nov 2012 #168

Jackie Kennedy was a Lee thru her mother's side Redford Nov 2012 #157

Last time I was in Richmond I saw thucythucy Nov 2012 #115

Your definition of "shrine" is incomplete. PavePusher Nov 2012 #118

How so? thucythucy Nov 2012 #200

The portion you are ignoring... PavePusher Nov 2012 #250

I suppose. thucythucy Nov 2012 #255

Yes, interesting, our vocabulary. Many synonyms, Useful at times. n/t PavePusher Nov 2012 #256

Or imagine visiting West Point and seeing a "Benedict Arnold Shrine." It's the exact same thing. apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #121

Agree fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #120

By definition the Confederacy is the most anti-American force in the history of this country. aaaaaa5a Nov 2012 #128

What would you do? Change the names of EVERYTHING? Blue_Tires Nov 2012 #130

Yep: I'd change everything on that list. Just like the schools with mascots offensive to Native apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #134

Jefferson owned hundreds of slaves and raped many of them. Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #149

Jefferson did not lead a war of treason against the United States. Please try to sort your apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #167

How do you think African Americans feel about attending a school named for a white slaveholder Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #173

But that's not the subject of this OP - the traitors who attempted to keep African Americans apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #180

Not a big leap from "glorifying people who fought to keep people enslaved" to Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #182

It is a big leap IN THIS OP, which is very specifically about the Confederate traitors who apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #185

Thanks for the suggestion, but I think I will just continue to post in this thread. Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #187

The real deal is you simply want to change the subject. Let's have you on the record: apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #189

What about the professional sports teams with NA names? glacierbay Nov 2012 #193

I'd agree, but Blue_Tires Nov 2012 #246

We need to fix this.... whistler162 Nov 2012 #131

Do we dig the corpses out of Arlington, too? Nevernose Nov 2012 #145

I can think of about 187,213 things more important than the name of a fucking park. n/t cherokeeprogressive Nov 2012 #147

No kidding. Just another divisive thread to rouse the South haters. cordelia Nov 2012 #199

Read any online bio of Confederate Gen. Patrick Ronayne Cleburne VOX Nov 2012 #163

A few DUers would automatically equate him to Adolf Hitler. Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #164

Amazing... shrdlu Nov 2012 #172

I fully agree with you (nt) Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #176

Amazingly, there's a Nathan Bedford Forrest High School... turbo_satan Nov 2012 #178

There's a Robert Byrd Bridge from WV to OH. Byrd was an Exalted Cyclops in the KKK (nt) Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #186

Those names aren't about glorifying. They're about remembering WHAT HAPPENED, but patrice Nov 2012 #179

The question is does naming a park after a general mean one approves of slavery? Or does it mean still_one Nov 2012 #190

Depends. A monument to the soldiers is one thing. Ken Burch Nov 2012 #210

You know what I find odd? MFrohike Nov 2012 #198

That war needs to be fought, agreed. Ken Burch Nov 2012 #208

Another reason I wish we could "Rec" replies: spot-on analysis. I wish I knew the answer. apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #209

Indeed. Imagine what we'd think of it if Germany had monuments to Mengele, the Gestapo, and the SS. Ken Burch Nov 2012 #201

I've been asking our friends from the Gungeon above a very straightforward question apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #203

They're probably listening to "Sweet Home, Alabama" on repeat as they post. Ken Burch Nov 2012 #204

I just figured they were whistlin' Dixie, but your conjecture is probably closer to the mark... apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #207

You mean like this? Spider Jerusalem Nov 2012 #216

Jefferson Davis' birthday is a state holiday here. Third Doctor Nov 2012 #217

The Civil War was deemed a 'noble' war Canuckistanian Nov 2012 #222

Should we honor the Vietnam veterans? The Iraq War veterans? (nt) Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #232

More false equivalency: the Generals who commanded troops in both the Vietnam and Iraq Wars apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #244

I guess american Indians would have to laugh at the outrage Tsiyu Nov 2012 #228

There's a popular park -- confederate carving and former KKK meeting place -- outside Atlanta. Hoyt Nov 2012 #229

My friend Devon called it "Confederama" Tsiyu Nov 2012 #233

"Confederama" -- That's perfect. Hoyt Nov 2012 #235

I bet you remember the nightmare Tsiyu Nov 2012 #239

Hell No, I ain't forgetting . . . . . . . racist JB Stoner. Hoyt Nov 2012 #242

It's history. Autumn Nov 2012 #234

So if a history is "bad" then it should be erased from all memory? oneshooter Nov 2012 #236

Yes. Let's demolish the Vietnam Veterans' Wall (nt) Nye Bevan Nov 2012 #237

There are many tributes JNelson6563 Nov 2012 #240

You gotta understand, the South is still stuck in the '60's, grahamhgreen Nov 2012 #251

You know what? They were Americans, too. aquart Nov 2012 #252

George "Macaca" Allen named his son LibDemAlways Nov 2012 #253