General Discussion

NickB79

(19,224 posts)

68. So Americans don't have an individual right to free speech, or free religion?

Reply to lagomorph777 (Reply #64)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 04:04 PM

Oct 2021

So in this portion:

right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government

If I as an individual wanted to petition the Government, on my own, I have no right to do so? I can only petition as part of a group?

Cornell Law clearly says it protects individual rights.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/first_amendment

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A Well Regulated Militia [View all] Dirty Socialist Oct 2021 OP

you're missing a couple of words Blues Heron Oct 2021 #1

To me it would mean universal IF Dirty Socialist Oct 2021 #2

It says "the people" Blues Heron Oct 2021 #4

After re-reading it Dirty Socialist Oct 2021 #6

Poorly written, and not, nearly, enough, commas. Paladin Oct 2021 #18

Perhaps it is poorly written. Caliman73 Oct 2021 #72

To me it was always that to have a well regulate militia, the people have to be allowed to own guns. brewens Oct 2021 #7

Militia over a standing army Claire Oh Nette Oct 2021 #27

A pretty small percentage of people owned guns in the first place in the Colonies. Take away that brewens Oct 2021 #30

Do you have anything to back up that assertion? Nt hack89 Oct 2021 #57

Yeah. brewens Oct 2021 #61

I don't see a specific mention of gun ownership rates in colonial America hack89 Oct 2021 #66

Is there a specific passage you can point to? ShazzieB Nov 2021 #78

All the hoopla over 'the people' is, ahem, AndyS Oct 2021 #14

I guess I will have to read Madison Dirty Socialist Oct 2021 #15

The second amendment is an awful, poorly-worded sentence. Politicub Oct 2021 #19

to me its crystal clear - which is why we need to erase it from our constitution Blues Heron Oct 2021 #20

I agree that it should be repealed. Politicub Oct 2021 #21

to me the first part just explains why Blues Heron Oct 2021 #22

The quote is a clause, not a sentence, and it's deliberately removed from its context. lagomorph777 Oct 2021 #63

What does "keep and bear" mean? What are "arms"? maxsolomon Oct 2021 #24

I think it means own rifles and handguns Blues Heron Oct 2021 #26

I'd guess the average militiaman did not own a flintlock pistol. maxsolomon Oct 2021 #28

At The Time, Sir The Magistrate Oct 2021 #39

This message was self-deleted by its author sl8 Oct 2021 #47

You Are Refering To Individual State Constitutions At The Founding, Sir? The Magistrate Oct 2021 #48

This message was self-deleted by its author sl8 Oct 2021 #50

Without The Text, Sir, It's Hard To See What Meaning May Be Conveyed The Magistrate Oct 2021 #51

This message was self-deleted by its author sl8 Oct 2021 #52

Defense Of the State Is Defense Of The Citizen Himself, Sir The Magistrate Oct 2021 #55

This message was self-deleted by its author sl8 Oct 2021 #56

that's my point. maxsolomon Oct 2021 #49

The term "well regulated" can cover many things, including what types of firearms are regulation. So dameatball Oct 2021 #3

'regulated' had a somewhat different meaning then Amishman Oct 2021 #17

Originalism is only applicable when a Conservative says it is. maxsolomon Oct 2021 #25

Glad you realized this. LiberatedUSA Oct 2021 #5

Now I think it's poorly written Dirty Socialist Oct 2021 #8

open to intepretation Crepuscular Oct 2021 #9

They probably should have said that we can own guns for the purpose of serving in a well brewens Oct 2021 #10

We can regulate weapons we already do. The Jungle 1 Oct 2021 #11

True that Dirty Socialist Oct 2021 #12

But it is not the 2A that is preventing gun control hack89 Oct 2021 #31

The 2A allows strict gun control hack89 Oct 2021 #13

I take well regulated to mean: LakeArenal Oct 2021 #16

Todays well regulated militia is each states National Guard. pwb Oct 2021 #23

The 2A had nothing to do with the National Guard. former9thward Oct 2021 #73

It helps to quote the entire thing. Zeitghost Oct 2021 #29

I contend that morons allowed open carry does not qualify as a "well regulated militia". pecosbob Oct 2021 #32

Yeah, the RWNJs always forget everything that comes before the comma (n/t) MissMillie Oct 2021 #33

Just keep in mind... LiberatedUSA Oct 2021 #34

Are there any other Amendments that speak of a collective right? NickB79 Oct 2021 #35

Exactly, it was the Bill of Rights, and they are individual rights. nt EX500rider Oct 2021 #44

Um, yes. The First. lagomorph777 Oct 2021 #64

So Americans don't have an individual right to free speech, or free religion? NickB79 Oct 2021 #68

Fine, "the people" of course applies to all people. lagomorph777 Oct 2021 #69

I said it was incongruous with the other Rights NickB79 Oct 2021 #70

No - it's written as it's written. I don't have to defend the Founders here. lagomorph777 Oct 2021 #71

Collective vs ind manicdem Oct 2021 #77

The 2nd covers guns expected to be used by the militia - i.e. uniform military-grade arms. BusterMove Oct 2021 #36

From Scholar Carol Anderson: "a constitutional right to form militias to put down slave revolts" usonian Oct 2021 #37

Very interesting, especially the removed passage by Thomas Jefferson! Rhiannon12866 Oct 2021 #53

That makes no sense. There was no federal issue at stake. hack89 Oct 2021 #58

Anderson isn't wrong about one of the southern state motivation, but she ignores the fact.. SYFROYH Oct 2021 #59

I read recently someone who had an interesting angle on the 2nd amendment. Mr.Bill Oct 2021 #38

It says "keep and bear arms" Angleae Oct 2021 #42

"Keep" can mean other things than own. Mr.Bill Oct 2021 #43

Depends what "keep" means in relation to arms. maxsolomon Oct 2021 #74

Yes, thank you! dutch777 Oct 2021 #40

So much law loophole jumping, it's why our society is out of wack. Brainfodder Oct 2021 #41

Interesting take on the 2cnd, that's been done to death. Captain Stern Oct 2021 #45

Nice straw man. lagomorph777 Oct 2021 #65

I didn't build a straw man..nice, or otherwise. Captain Stern Oct 2021 #67

You offered a Binary choice. Guns: Yes or No? maxsolomon Oct 2021 #75

I didn't offer a choice at all. Captain Stern Oct 2021 #76

The people have the guns to form a well regulated militia SYFROYH Oct 2021 #46

This message was self-deleted by its author sl8 Oct 2021 #54

How is Meatloaf's 'I'd Do Anything for Love' like the 2nd Amendment? HAB911 Oct 2021 #60

Well done. 👍 ShazzieB Nov 2021 #79

Thank you HAB911 Nov 2021 #80

Yup. But gun-humpers (even here) will give you all kinds of excuses to ignore the first clause. lagomorph777 Oct 2021 #62