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Zalatix

(8,994 posts)
94. Been delaying this because it's a long one...
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 06:46 AM
Jan 2012

I've been thinking this over and tossing it around with my wife. Please forgive if this sounds overly analytical...

If I had a garden and plenty of meat nearby I wouldn't need a car so much, of course. And walking never hurt anyone. However I would prefer to drive rather than walk to the next Comic Con and I bring a lot of comic books, anime, etc. which I'd need a car for. What I want is one of the cars of old, hybridized with the tech of new - eco friendly cars that last for decades. Modern industry does not even ALLOW that. Everything is planned to break down!

In actuality we do have chickens. 6 hens (for eggs) which we feed using compost heaps. They go for the worms, too, and the compost helps grow food. We're not ready for meat chickens yet and the eggs don't come often - laying too many eggs destroys a hen's calcium levels.

Your food security seems to be based on a certain degree of decentralization. I like that aspect. We need more of that in America.

Clothes that last for life? I'd settle for pieces that last for 10-20 years. Not happening in America or most of the modern world - gotta buy, buy, buy! Weave once and wear for 10 years? Hmmmmmmm, actually I could go for that. Or I could barter with someone else and call it a localized version of Comparative Advantage. (Long explanation)

Washing dishes and clothes? I really like the idea of throwing dishes in the dish washer and clothes in the washer and dryer, letting it take care of the work, while I do something else. HOWEVER... today's washers and dryers break down inside of 1-2 years. They make new models of these things every 6 months according to what the manager at Best Buy told me. SIX MONTHS!!! WTF! These things used to last 10 years or more!

So now you present a valid logical question: how much time does the average person lose hand-washing clothes and dishes, versus working their rear end off to afford a dishwasher or clothes washer/dryer that keeps breaking down?

I must have a refrigerator. But again, corporations have it so they don't last, either. I can do without the fancy computers on the dishwasher, though. Which takes me back to the question in the previous paragraph.

I must concede that if electricity is lost, you have the advantage.

However I can NOT live without computers. Computers can be incredibly eco-friendly if you use them to substitute resource-heavy stuff, most classically the reading and making of books. Keep them running cool and you add 2 years to their lifespan. But again... why aren't computers made to last??? Also, MP3's save me resources because I don't need to buy CDs (just the mp3's), and I listen to a LOT of music while I work. But my wife, kids and I go to concerts about once every 6 months, too. You guys probably have tons of musicians in walking distance.

On the surface of this issue, computers are the one thing I would say I'd miss if I lived near you, and I'm not sure about computers since you're posting on the DU, and you guys probably do have refrigerators. I do have but one objection: what about access to medicine and medical services?

Then there are all the huge advantages that come with your way of life.

The biggest advantage, that can't be easily matched here, is your strong community. In the modern world we fall prey to economic collapses from time to time - depressions. We're running a big risk of a dollar collapse, for instance.

You know the drill, big time gurus are out now talking about stocking up on gold. Gold is stupid. In an economic collapse situation, you can't defend it easily if it's in your possession, and if you have stocks of it "elsewhere" someone's going to steal it - basically, gold that is not in your hands will never make it to your possession. Others who think they are smarter than the crowd, say that you should own a farm. This is actually a smarter idea. Hyperinflation, which people fear could happen soon, means one apple will cost $1000. Ye olde apple tree is now a well of red gold. Owning a farm? Now that's an empire. Let me label this, "localized food security".

BUT... what no one talks about in an economic collapse is, alongside a good garden or farm, the one most important thing of all: your community. When you say "and really enjoy yourself catching up on the latest gossip, discussing politics, movies, whatever you want to", that means when an economy collapses around you, you have these people to rely on. Combine that with the localized food security that you seem to enjoy, and you have what you need to ride out the kind of collapse that America is now flirting with.

So let's get back to the whole hand-washing stuff lifestyle. The bicycle-powered washing machine you posted info about, seriously? Do they have stuff like that where you live? Could you power that thing with solar? Without the battery setup, that would be like fusing a modern lifestyle with some honest exercise. And keeping some equipment off the trash heap, too.

+10000 FreakinDJ Jan 2012 #1
I call the free-traders' position what it is: TREASON. Laelth Jan 2012 #2
Oh now you're an isolationist. <sarcasm> Zalatix Jan 2012 #7
+1 I never understood those arguments right here on DU either... Little Star Jan 2012 #23
They never think about the consequences Zalatix Jan 2012 #28
Yes, treason and pure evil. ananda Jan 2012 #17
and Administrations that "Cook the Books" to say it doesn't harm Americans / America FreakinDJ Jan 2012 #29
It is fraud. It is also treason. Laelth Jan 2012 #39
Absolutely! AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #81
Amen--Treason it is. We need TARIFFS now! unlawflcombatnt Jan 2012 #146
About time someone had the guts to say it straight. Many thanks! n/t Zalatix Jan 2012 #147
I beg to differ about the use of resources Catherina Jan 2012 #3
Thanks! We consume the most because of Republican / Conservative principles. Zalatix Jan 2012 #10
I'm a lot harsher than you are Catherina Jan 2012 #34
Thanks, one thing though... Zalatix Jan 2012 #38
Fully understood Catherina Jan 2012 #43
I actually bought a little manual clothes washer at the thrift store I work at. Odin2005 Jan 2012 #57
Do you have a picture of it? Or a similar one? Catherina Jan 2012 #60
Here's a pic of it I found online: Odin2005 Jan 2012 #61
That's so cute Catherina Jan 2012 #67
I used one of those for a few years. Worked a treat. I gave it to a relative living in NYC in a MADem Jan 2012 #80
I like Rosling's view of the washing machine: joshcryer Jan 2012 #76
Been delaying this because it's a long one... Zalatix Jan 2012 #94
Actually Mexico city has harsher smog control nadinbrzezinski Jan 2012 #68
Thanks. I didn't know that Catherina Jan 2012 #71
I never understood how any ordinary citizen could support free trade. n/t Little Star Jan 2012 #4
I've never understood how any working class person could vote repug. One would think it difficult SammyWinstonJack Jan 2012 #21
With the "moderate" Democrats supporting "free" trade all the time Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #165
Shouldn't they start the ball rolling by giving their money to the 1% in other countries? eppur_se_muova Jan 2012 #5
+1 Little Star Jan 2012 #8
+1! Zalatix Jan 2012 #12
I think that they did with the bank bailouts. Some for our 1%. Some for the foreign countries' 1%. AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #82
Somebody has to pay for that 600% profit.... orpupilofnature57 Jan 2012 #6
Shouldnt we as progressives consider ourselves citizens of the world? DCBob Jan 2012 #9
Didn't you read the OP? How about telling this to the poor of America Zalatix Jan 2012 #11
Yes. I dont think these goals are necessarily mutually exclusive. DCBob Jan 2012 #13
So you think that impoverishing America is necessary for this? Zalatix Jan 2012 #14
no. DCBob Jan 2012 #15
If we REALLY cared about the poor in other countries Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #169
As you see, they'll just deny that it is happening kenny blankenship Jan 2012 #18
yup... until it happens to their selfish selves fascisthunter Jan 2012 #42
Exactly. This is a false argument. treestar Jan 2012 #35
When did Washington become the capital of the world, as opposed to the capital of the U.S.? Laelth Jan 2012 #20
February 21-28, 1972 AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #83
Yes. It is not "us vs. them" it is "us AND them". pampango Jan 2012 #22
+1 Little Star Jan 2012 #27
How can we help others when we can't even help our own? n/t Little Star Jan 2012 #25
Free trade does not improve the quality of life of people living in other countries JDPriestly Jan 2012 #33
You're not against free trade, but the industrial revolution itself. treestar Jan 2012 #36
You're setting up a strawman to knock down Populist_Prole Jan 2012 #45
What argument? treestar Jan 2012 #48
Again with the buzzwords playing into the corporatitist's hands Populist_Prole Jan 2012 #58
So what do you propose be done? treestar Jan 2012 #79
They're excluding our workers. Do you get it yet? Zalatix Jan 2012 #88
What do you propose be done? treestar Jan 2012 #111
Tariffs. China uses them against us, we have a right to use them against China. Zalatix Jan 2012 #112
Then why not advocate for that? treestar Jan 2012 #115
I have never run away from arguments. However, you have. Zalatix Jan 2012 #116
You have made not one argument here for the tariff, not one treestar Jan 2012 #118
Let's look at what you previously said, and my questions that you previously avoided Zalatix Jan 2012 #122
Stop having a war with me treestar Jan 2012 #149
My questions came first and I will NOT stop demanding answers to them. EVER. Zalatix Jan 2012 #150
I did not claim that! treestar Jan 2012 #151
It is not a lie, you did say that. And it is documented. Once again: Zalatix Jan 2012 #152
Absurd. America is not the only place jobs originate! treestar Jan 2012 #153
Then you do not understand the nature of our trade deficit. Allow me to explain, with CITES. Zalatix Jan 2012 #154
If the world is dependent on our economy treestar Jan 2012 #155
So you want to talk about that whole 30% of the world's resources thing, eh? Zalatix Jan 2012 #160
Took a while to read first set of links treestar Jan 2012 #157
All your arguments are for putting Americans out of work. Zalatix Jan 2012 #158
"We already have the highest lifestyle in the world" Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #166
OK, but we are still first world treestar Jan 2012 #181
I'm advocating that we should have free trade only with those countries JDPriestly Jan 2012 #73
A TRADE war? We're already in a trade war, started by China and other nations. Zalatix Jan 2012 #89
you do that... and drop the progressive moniker fascisthunter Jan 2012 #40
What's disgusting are your insults... DCBob Jan 2012 #44
No... your disgusting insult is that we as Progressives should curtail American standards of living fascisthunter Jan 2012 #49
I never said that. DCBob Jan 2012 #54
sure... good bye! fascisthunter Jan 2012 #55
What about OUR working class? What about us? Why should we go unemployed for this? Zalatix Jan 2012 #90
We shouldn't. If trade policy is done correctly and fairly is should benefit both sides. DCBob Jan 2012 #97
Well said. AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #84
Dear free traders, here are more Americans losing jobs to make the rest of the world a better place. Zalatix Jan 2012 #16
You see we are makeing their lives better. Just think about those happy people at Foxcon. wandy Jan 2012 #24
It is interesting how folks paint essentially slavery as altruistic and "progressive" TheKentuckian Jan 2012 #78
You know, when ever a "centrist" or right-winger says that a certain policy will Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #174
Here are three more Americans that free traders should speak to Zalatix Jan 2012 #19
That's a silk stalking horse... Skidmore Jan 2012 #26
And, let's see a few free traders donate all their money to projects in JDPriestly Jan 2012 #30
You nailed it exactly. Populist_Prole Jan 2012 #51
One can NOT be FOR "Free Trade" and Pro-LABOR at the same time. bvar22 Jan 2012 #31
Tell that to the Germans. n/t pampango Jan 2012 #62
If anyone has forgotten, maybe one of them will remind us by repeating what they said. AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #85
What Skidmore says. PETRUS Jan 2012 #32
Paul Krugman supports free trade. Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #37
Oh no.... you got that poster! fascisthunter Jan 2012 #41
Doesnt Krugman's opinion mean anything to you on this issue? DCBob Jan 2012 #47
no it doesn't.... his point of view on this ISN'T progressive... it is flawed fascisthunter Jan 2012 #52
sure genius.. DCBob Jan 2012 #56
Krugman has begun to change his mind on outsourcing, so you're wrong on this, too. Zalatix Jan 2012 #92
from your linked article.. DCBob Jan 2012 #96
A 25% tariff would be far more than what we've done so far. Zalatix Jan 2012 #113
Hey fascisthunter, Krugman has started to turn away from defending free trade. Zalatix Jan 2012 #91
Not anymore! Populist_Prole Jan 2012 #50
Paul Krugman supports free trade?... NOT bvar22 Jan 2012 #64
"Krugman's views on free trade have provoked considerable ire from the anti-globalism movement". Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #66
No one here is advocating Smoot-Hawley. Elwood P Dowd Jan 2012 #72
Thank you for dispelling the Smoot-Hawley myth! Zalatix Jan 2012 #129
Krugman called for a 25% tariff on China. I posted the cite already. That's NOT free trade. Zalatix Jan 2012 #125
Has he proposed exiting NAFTA? Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #135
Free Traders are never the Ones lowering their own Standards of living for the World fascisthunter Jan 2012 #46
The dirty little secret you NEVER hear uttered by the media or pols. n/t Populist_Prole Jan 2012 #53
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #59
What a total pile of BS! Elwood P Dowd Jan 2012 #63
When you have to resort to such blatantly stupid ad hominem.. girl gone mad Jan 2012 #70
No, because that's an ad hominem argument. But, if that is their position, even a broken clock AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #86
Thanks for posting this! LongTomH Jan 2012 #65
Many thanks LongTomH! Zalatix Jan 2012 #114
I have a solution to this that rarely comes in nadinbrzezinski Jan 2012 #69
Repubs would hate that idea (the mythical North American Union is a mainstay of bircher fears). pampango Jan 2012 #75
Alas it is in the rarely enforced side agreements of nafta nadinbrzezinski Jan 2012 #77
Free Trade doesn't help the Third World or First World. white_wolf Jan 2012 #74
There is NO "free trade". World trade is controlled by a cabal of multinational corporations. AdHocSolver Jan 2012 #87
Regarding foreign made designer clothes Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #117
Mexico is a great circular thing since they love to bitch about immigrants. Sirveri Jan 2012 #93
Here's an uncomfortable question for you Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #95
+1 DCBob Jan 2012 #98
that would all be a valid point if "globalization" was improving the quality of life in the third Douglas Carpenter Jan 2012 #99
In some cases it clearly is. DCBob Jan 2012 #100
it is dishonest to represent the majority as benefiting when that is clearly not the case Douglas Carpenter Jan 2012 #102
Funny, I was just in the Philippines also. DCBob Jan 2012 #103
I would suggest taking a trip off the beaten path a little bit and away from the tourist belt Douglas Carpenter Jan 2012 #104
I certainly do get off the beaten path.. I have relatives in the province far from any major city. DCBob Jan 2012 #105
Actually call center workers in the Phlippines make about $500 / month. DCBob Jan 2012 #106
most of those jobs would be for only 6 months, would they not? Douglas Carpenter Jan 2012 #107
Yes, I think thats correct but from what I understand there are always new contracts. DCBob Jan 2012 #109
While there is a "rising middle class" in China and India, the poor are worse off than ever Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #167
Interesting perspective. I haven't heard of those issues. Zalatix Jan 2012 #168
Yes, that is true also in the Philippines. Prices of almost everything are going up. DCBob Jan 2012 #177
Then what do you have to say about this? Zalatix Jan 2012 #180
Most of America's rich corporate elite are greedy bastards. DCBob Jan 2012 #183
And despite that you feel we should keep sending jobs overseas? Zalatix Jan 2012 #184
Yes, if there are proper controls and regulations in place. DCBob Jan 2012 #185
Um, there's no proper way to send American jobs out of the country. None. Zero. Nada. Zalatix Jan 2012 #186
That's an absurd statement. DCBob Jan 2012 #187
Globalization will collapse under the weight of its own absurdity. Zalatix Jan 2012 #188
I suspect the growing middle classes of China and India would probably disagree with you Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #119
The vast majority of Indians and Chinese are not participating in it except as victims of Douglas Carpenter Jan 2012 #126
you have no answer for these facts Zalatix Jan 2012 #128
What exactly has that got to do with the topic at hand? Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #130
It has everything to do with the topic at hand and yes, you absolutely do know that. Zalatix Jan 2012 #133
Welcome to globalisation Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #136
Food crises, pollution, slave labor & child labor are acceptable because "welcome to globalization"? Zalatix Jan 2012 #138
Reading comprehension failure Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #141
Reading comprehension failure.... where, again? Zalatix Jan 2012 #143
We are asked to decline our standard of living so the 1% can get more high density Jan 2012 #101
That's facile and nonsensical honestly Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #120
The top 1-5% of China and India are buying cars - made by slaves and high pollution Zalatix Jan 2012 #123
There is a reason why you won't respond to this... my response is even MORE uncomfortable. Zalatix Jan 2012 #127
You seem to make a lot of stupid assumptions. Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #131
You seem to give a lot of cowardly non-answers. Zalatix Jan 2012 #132
Stupid assumptions, again Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #134
Cowardly non-answers, again Zalatix Jan 2012 #137
I said America is using 30% of the world's resources. Which it is. Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #140
Your argument has so many errors, where to start! And can you back up anything with cites? Anything? Zalatix Jan 2012 #145
We're supposed to be glad because our poor are "better off" than those in India? Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #170
You obviously refused to drink the kool-aid. Zalatix Jan 2012 #171
I have actual experience working blue collar jobs and volunteering in programs Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #173
That's what I want to get into more of... community organizing to create jobs, to be specific. Zalatix Jan 2012 #175
The ProSense Jan 2012 #108
If I could give up my iphone to pull a family out of poverty, I would mdmc Jan 2012 #110
It's called foreign aid. Zalatix Jan 2012 #139
I'm a one worlder myself, but I have nothing against protecting the economy mdmc Jan 2012 #142
I'm not a one-worlder. I don't want China having a vote on my country's reproductive rights. Zalatix Jan 2012 #144
Thank you varelse Jan 2012 #121
These homeless students are making sacrifices to help the poor in other nations... Zalatix Jan 2012 #124
My church has just started a program for homeless *community college* Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #176
Many unemployed will never be able to get another job - thank outsourcing for this! Zalatix Jan 2012 #148
I imagine many people rationalize that imaginary, wholly made-up red and black lines... LanternWaste Jan 2012 #156
I showed you a lot of America's poor and jobless in this thread. Why don't you tell them that? Zalatix Jan 2012 #159
Building tariff walls didn't help any country in the 1930's (except Germany but that had more to do pampango Jan 2012 #161
There is an example of a nation using tariffs to become rich. And the Smoot-Hawley story is a myth. Zalatix Jan 2012 #162
Next? Smoot-Hawley was bad republican policy. That much is not a myth. FDR knew it. pampango Jan 2012 #163
Blame foreigners? Hardly. It's about protecting American jobs. Zalatix Jan 2012 #164
Sounds like you would have been fighting FDR when he was dismantling tariffs in the 1930's and pampango Jan 2012 #178
Europe's economic model is putting them deep in debt. Fail. Zalatix Jan 2012 #179
FDR wasn't doing anything about tariffs after World War II Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #189
I see a lot of affluent Americans who have never met a real poor American or Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #172
Look at this very thread. Free Traders FEAR to talk about the poor in Western nations. Zalatix Jan 2012 #182
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