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Member since: Wed May 5, 2004, 09:44 AM
Number of posts: 36,418

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If you think the 917 was terrifying, can you imagine driving a mid-engine V-16 with swing axles?

Three decades before there was a McLaren M8 or the Can Am Panzerwagens, there were the Auto Union and Mercedes streamliner record cars. Prof. Ferdinand Porsche (the elder) also designed this one, below.

Would you drive on 1937 tyres at over 200 mph? Maybe if you're Tazio Nuvolari, Bernd Rosemeyer or Dick Seaman:

And, we were real happy to sell him the delivery system for tactical nukes.

Israel already had theirs, gratis:

The CIA was well aware that AQ Khan was also peddling his "previously-owned, low-miles" uranium enrichment centrifuges to Iraq and Iran in the Bush Sr. 1980s. Israel already had their bombs just-in-time for the 1967 War, thanks to us, and the ability to deliver them.

Read grandfather's career recollections: in S. America during the "Dirty War" & in Franco's Spain

Here's his end of career interview with the Foreign Affairs Oral History project in the National Archives. http://international.loc.gov/service/mss/mssmisc/mfdip/2005%20txt%20files/2004zim01.txt

He was what might be described as a typical State Dept. spook during the Cold War, except that Zimmerman was posted in Spain and ended up in Paraguay, Uruguay and Brazil during the "Dirty War." Early in the interview, he talks matter of factly about the Fascists he dealt with routinely in Spain and Portugal. His observations about Carter's attention to Human Rights are also notable for their ambivalence.

If George Zimmerman had Right-wing authoritarian attitudes (and the interview below is indeed with George's grandfather), he may have gotten them through his father who was reportedly Military Intelligence in Vietnam from his Grandfather, who was either CIA under diplomatic cover posted in some of the worst human rights violations in the world or was a career State Dept. guy in those posts who went over to CIA as a contractor at the end of his State Dept. posting. More specifically, he moved over to the "HUMINT Office of the old Intelligence Committee Staff" posted at Langley. At the very end of the interview he sums up his later career (1985-91) as being with the ARA (DOS Bureau of Inter-American Affairs). He appears to have been part of an "Inspection Corps," which may have been attached to the State Department, or that may have been his cover. But, there is no question about that he was a spook posted in some of the nastiest Spanish-speaking posts during the Cold War:

Q: Then you came back in 1974 to serve in ARA for five years.

ZIMMERMANN: That is right. I really didn't have an assignment when I came back. I had interviews with the Inspection Corps, with Ken Young and also with Bill Bowdler in ARA. Bill said, "We want you to take over Brazilian affairs. You have Portuguese and we think it will be great." It looked pretty good to me, I didn't see anything else on the horizon at that point. I had not ever been in Brazil before, and I had to do my homework fast. There was an excellent Ambassador at the other end, John Crimmins. It was a great assignment and I really enjoyed it. There were many problems and it was a very busy time.
It became even busier when the office became responsible for all East Coast Affairs including Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay. We were having problems over nuclear facilities in Brazil and the military agreements were going a little sour because of friction on nuclear matters. They also wanted a lot more military aid than we were prepared to give them at that point. Also, as I say the dirty war was going on in Argentina and Uruguay.

Q: The dirty war being?

ZIMMERMANN: The dirty war was referred to the atrocities committed by both the military government and the opposition. There were hidden massacres and burials at night that nobody knew about. People were abducted and never heard from again. People were dropped out of planes over the river. It was a very dirty war.
At one point Robert Hill was Ambassador there. I stayed with him usually when I went to Buenos Aires. I remember riding with him with four lead cars and two behind. It was that bad in terms of threats against Americans who were accused of being too sympathetic with the "opposition". It was a very dirty problem. Obviously the human rights organizations here were very much up in the air, and, of course, we were too. The Carter administration properly placed great emphasis on human rights. There was great pressure from the White House on these things.

Q: Basically you had military governments in all three countries.

ZIMMERMANN: That is true, and Stroessner had been in Paraguay since 1955.

Q: And Uruguay had a military government?


Q: I think it is very interesting to look at the impact of the human rights policy during Carter on the Foreign Service and its almost visceral reaction about how this sort of upsets all sorts of other things. I think we have learned to live with it. But this was the beginning. Did you and your colleagues have trouble adjusting to this major emphasis on something... ?

ZIMMERMANN: I don't think any of us held any objection to this being a real goal in our foreign policy. I think what gave many of us problems was that it became almost the only goal in some ways. It certainly became a predominant goal and other means of achieving ends were sort of left in limbo.

Q: Did you find yourself going head-to-head with Pat Derian, head of the Human Rights office, or others in her office?

ZIMMERMANN: No, you didn't go head-to-head with Pat Derian. Our Assistant Secretary was very careful on this score. We followed his lead. Fred Rondon, who was my Argentine Desk officer and later my deputy, had the most contact with Pat Derian. In fact he accompanied her on a trip down to Argentina. He was a good man for it and was bilingual in Spanish and could help out a great deal with Pat. He also had good rapport with her, I think, given the circumstances. We took our lead from the Assistant Secretary really on how to play this.

Q: How did this translate with relations? Was it one of these things where we would go up and say you have to be more human rightish and then go on our way and nothing would happen but we had made our bid?

ZIMMERMANN: My opinion is that our representations seldom led anywhere in Uruguay or Argentina, certainly not in Argentina. In Argentina, one feels half out of the real world. There is a feeling of being isolated from world events. Certainly, they, in their own activities felt that; they didn't give a damn about opinion elsewhere.

Q: They can live off their own resources.

ZIMMERMANN: Exactly. We tried hard. I mean the violations were so egregious that it wasn't hard to be in support of human rights, believe me. The violations were incredible, including by the Tupamaros in Uruguay. We may have had a slightly restraining role in Uruguay in some cases, but not a great success.

Q: How about with Brazil and human rights?

ZIMMERMANN: Human rights was a factor in Brazil...the death squads and so forth. But violations had tapered off as an issue in some way versus what it had been earlier, and certainly Brazil in this respect was way over-shadowed by Uruguay and Argentina. But there were still problems. We got wind of violations less than we did in Argentina. Information came from interviews with people who had been released from prison some time later. Also, we had other fish to fry in Brazil, including the nuclear issue, because they were by far the most advanced in nuclear research, etc., and were dickering with the Germans.

Q: What was the issue on the nuclear side that got us so involved?

ZIMMERMANN: Well, the issue was basically what their ultimate intentions were. We discouraged the production of enriched uranium, which we tried to keep away from most countries. Were their goals just nuclear power and research or were they intent on developing military uses?
We had a similar problem with the Argentines. We were very concerned. They would not let us see their reactors except from a distance. But the issue didn't come up as sharply as it did in Brazil because Brazil was dickering with German firms for plutonium enrichment equipment and processes. In the end, the German processes did not prove very successful as I remember. I think they were systems that had not really been proved in themselves and as far as I know, did not prove to be very useful to the Brazilians either. It cost a lot of money and time and plus bad relations for a while.

Q: Brazil, unlike most of the other Latin American countries, hasn't really fought any wars with anybody for a long time. Why would it want a bomb?

ZIMMERMANN: Well, Brazil sent troops to fight with us in World War II and were the only Latin Americans that did.

Q: Yes, and they fought the Italian campaign. But you don't have a feeling that the Brazilians are after slices of territory. What would they use a bomb for?

ZIMMERMANN: Argentina. This was the big rival on the continent and they were aware that the Argentines were also pursuing nuclear development.

Q: Was it the feeling that the Argentines are messing around with nuclear things so we better have one ourselves?

ZIMMERMANN: That was the feeling on both sides, absolutely.

Q: You look at the map and you would say that you would have a real hard time making much of...they abut on each other in a relatively small area of little consequence.

ZIMMERMANN: Uruguay was established as a buffer state. I think in Brazil's case it was a little more than that, however. In Brazil it was a question of being a big power. They always wanted to be considered a big power, particularly by the US, and pointed at us and said we didn't treat them as a big power. The nuclear aspect was the mark of a big power and therefore they wanted to develop this. I think that was a very major part of the consideration.

Q: How did you evaluate our Embassies? Were we well represented in those countries?

ZIMMERMANN: Well, I think under John Crimmins the Embassy was very strong in Brazil. He was a top professional to my mind. In Uruguay, Larry Pezzulo, who was Ambassador when I left ARA, was excellent and worked very hard. His predecessor was not under the same pressures, so I think a comparison might be unfair.
In Paraguay Landau did a very good job for a number of years. I visited there twice. I flew back with the body of the Ambassador who died here and saw Stroessner a couple of times. It was a very low key operation compared with events in neighboring countries.
I think Hill did a good job in Argentina although I know he was controversial. I was never that closely involved with Raul Castro ...from Arizona I believe. I took him through his paces here before he went down, but I did not have that much of a feeling later.

Q: Carter did speak some Spanish. Was there more interest in ARA during his administration?

ZIMMERMANN: I don't know. Obviously Kennedy had an interest with his Alliance for Progress program. I think Johnson was so involved in the Vietnam business that he probably didn't have a whole lot of time for it, at least as far as I remember...I was on the Far East side at that point. I think Carter had a genuine interest in Latin America. He had Bob Pastor as his NSC guy for Latin America affairs.

Q: Did Rosalynn Carter make a trip to Latin America?

ZIMMERMANN: Yes, she went to Brazil for an inauguration that the President could not attend. I don't think the Brazilians appreciated her visit properly. I think that was unfair, but again it was the old Latin machismo. She got very involved in human rights down there too, which didn't endear her to the government.

Q: You retired when?

ZIMMERMANN: In February 1979.

Q: What have you been doing since?

ZIMMERMANN: That fall they were setting up the new FOI (Freedom of Information) office and I started working with the first team. After about a year and a half or so, Larry Pickering wanted me to join the historic document review center...it was sort of a Bangkok mafia. So I moved down there and am still working down there insofar as the salary cap permits me.
But aside from that, most of my work during the past five years has been with the Intelligence Community Staff on the HUMINT committee. That was broken up as of July under Gates. My contract is being kept alive until they decide how this settles down, whether they even want any contractors back. The HUMINT office is being moved out to Langley and the other divisions of the old Intelligence Community Staff are being parceled out elsewhere. I did mostly projects that had to do with Latin American and the Iberian Peninsula.

Q: Okay. I want to thank you very much.

George Zimmerman had felony assault on police officer charge in '05 & 2 domestic assaults

Note: the following information is public information available from public records about a public figure. It is not subject to the letter or intent of the DU rule that prohibits posting "private/personal information."

From the Orange County, FL Circuit Court Clerk of the Court Records page: http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/default.aspx
Record Count: 4
Search By: Party Exact Name: on Party Search Mode: Name Last Name: Zimmerman First Name: George Case Status: Closed Date Filed On or After: 01/01/2005 Date Filed On or Before: 01/01/2006 Sort By: Filed Date
Case Number Citation Number Style/Defendant Info Filed/Location/Judicial Officer Type/Status Charge(s)

Div 10
OKane, Julie H

Criminal Felony


Miller, W Michael




Div 44
44, TBA

Domestic Violence
Closed - SRS



Div 46
White, Keith F

Domestic Violence
Closed - SRS

You can do your own search here: http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/default.aspx Click: All Case Records Search. Next page enter Zimmerman George and DOB 10/05/1983 or do the look-up by the case date or number, as contained in the record extract posted above.

If anyone has anything to say about this information being posted, please respond in the thread, below.

Thank you.

Were you not aware of the strategic alliance and extremely close military ties between the two?

See, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_relations

Saudi Arabia funded most of Pakistan's nuclear program in the 1970s and 1980s with US intelligence acquiescence after the "Safari Club"/BCCI deal with GHW Bush. Please, see, http://journals.democraticunderground.com/leveymg/280 The Agency's BCCI operation may have previously involved former CIA Director Richard Helms and predated 1977, when Bush was appointed director of Joe Allbriton's First American Bancshares. That Texas-based bank was linked to the CIA, the Saudis and BCCI by Newsweek, reprinted here: http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/1992/12/06/the-bcci-cia-connection-just-how-far-did-it-go.html

It doesn't have to be a command, Pakistan willingly acts as a proxy. For all intents and purposes, Pakistan is Saudi Arabia's nuclear and paramilitary auxiliary. This extends to common efforts today against Iran and Syria, and to suppression of a simmering Shi'ia uprising in the Gulf states. Please, see, http://www.wvpakistan.com/Editorial/PakistanA%20new%20proxy%20battle%20ground%20for%20Saudi%20Arabia,%20Iran.htm

With the third-party help of the CIA, the Pakistani ISI and Saudi GID intelligence agencies jointly ran the Mujahadin against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, and later in Bosnia, Kosovo and Chenchnya.

As early as 1969, British and US-trained pilots of the Pakistan Air force flew the aircraft of the Royal Saudi Air Force to help fend off an invasion from South Yemen. In the 1970s and 1980s, about 15,000 Pakistani soldiers were stationed in Saudi Arabia to protect the country's oil fields. Against the backdrop of the recent uprisings in the Middle East and the Arab world which led to the ouster of several autocratic rulers of the Muslim world, Pakistan had played a key role in the region by supporting Saudi Arabia to preempt a possible revolt against the Saudi kingdom.

Besides placing two army divisions on standby to help Riyadh should any trouble break out, reportedly the Pakistan government helped the Saudi kingdom with the recruitment of thousands of ex-Pakistani military personnel for Bahrain's national guard. Please, see, http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/bahrain-calls-mercenaries-silence-protestors-5689

Islamabad receives more financial aid, both open and covert, from the Saudis than any other country. Pakistan is an extremely poor country and effectively bankrupt, without large reserves of hard currency of its own to have funded the purchase of its nuclear warhead and missile development programs from China. The source of that finance was Saudi Arabia: http://www.jamestown.org/programs/chinabrief/single/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=3532&tx_ttnews[backPid]=192&no_cache=1

A more likely candidate as a source for future Saudi missile purchases is Pakistan. According to a number of press reports, including those regarding the 1994 defection of a Saudi diplomat, Saudi Arabia has been funding Pakistan's nuclear and missile program purchases from China. The money certainly had to have come from somewhere, as Pakistan has been bankrupt for years and the Chinese are not known for their easy payment plans. In May 1999, following the Pakistani nuclear tests, Prince Sultan toured the uranium-enrichment plant and missile production facilities at Kahuta. Sultan may also have been present in Pakistan at a May 2002 test launch of the nuclear-capable Ghauri missile. If these reports are correct, what in essence has happened is that Saudi Arabia has given money to China for Pakistan's missile and nuclear programs. If so, Saudi Arabia could be buying a nuclear capability from China through a proxy state with Pakistan serving as the cutout. If Riyadh's influence over Pakistan extends to its nuclear programs, Saudi Arabia could rapidly become a de facto nuclear power through a simple shipment of missiles and warheads.

Those in Riyadh who favour the preparation of an open nuclear programme for military uses in cooperation with Pakistan include Saudi Defence Minister Sultan Bin Abdul Aziz, and its former intelligence chief, Turki Bin Faisal. The de facto nuclear capability of Saudi through Pakistan has been presumed for decades.

Some of America's wealthiest supported the Eugenics Movement - lines up well with elites who

supported and financed fascism and Nazi movements around the world during the following decades:

Sanctions or war - another false choice, like Center-right or Extreme Right. The frame is so skewed

that this is no real choice. It's built upon myth and falsehood, such as the assumption that Saudi Arabia would pursue the bomb if Iran got one. This is absurd given the fact that the Saudis financed the Pakistani nuclear program, and are already a de facto nuclear power.

I hate being lied to, even by those who think they're on the side of reason and conscience. They totally buy into the program that sanctions are not only necessary, that somehow they promote peace and goodwill. Quite the opposite - it's just a "feel-good" way of paving the road to war and provoking Iran into doing something desperate and stupid, which is the real objective.

That future truly sucks.

Except that half the cars on the road have no human operators, as it is, anyway.

Why NSA's Total Information Awareness will go the way of the Manned Bomber and Space Plane Programs

Big Pentagon budgets are hard to kill. Years after it's obvious to nearly everyone that the the original program is obsolete, it doesn't work, or its original strategic justification no longer applies, the toys of war never seem to really go away.

This is what's happening today with the NSA's Groundbreaker program, which was originally disclosed in its earlier incarnation as Admiral John Poindexter's Total Information Awareness (TIA) program. When there's a program that can't be justified, but the Pentagon really wants to keep, it goes black-budget, and is turned into a subject that no serious person wants to publicly discuss. It gets mystified.

Operation Groundbreaker emerged in the wake of 9/11 as NSA's answer to the question: "What does a terrorist eat? What is his credit score? And, if you intercept every single email and telephone call made in America, will any of them lead you to Osama Bin Laden's hideout?" They spent billions trying to answer those questions, and merely confirmed what they already knew. Humus and yogurt are good food, and most everyone's emails and bank records contain mountains of useless data that tie up the attention of armies of trained intelligence analysts. And, as it turned out, Osama wasn't really living in Detroit.

When a program is really in danger of receiving the budget ax, then a strange thing has been known to happen. They get turned into UFOs.

The Air Force's 50 year-old Hypersonic Space Planes and UFOs Over China in 2010

The hypersonic space plane concept is very 1950s tech, and had it not been for the sheer "bang for the buck" of guided missiles as opposed to a continuation of manned bomber programs, we would have seen some variation on the B-58 "Superhustler" space plane parasite bomber concept, illustrated below:

Old declassified black and white photos and nicely rendered art show that by the late 1950s, America could build Mach 6 or 7 space planes if enough money were thrown into the engineering problems involved. Some full-size mockups were built for the Air Force by Consolidated, which folded after Lockheed got the contract for what became the SR-71 Blackbird. Just how far the hypersonic space plane program progressed under other management is still a secret.


By the 1970s, even the Russians were going to punk down a mountain of rubles to develop their own fleet of hypersonic Buran space shuttle/fighter/interceptor/surveillance planes:

But, then, the Evil Empire crashed, as is ours, now. Kerchunk. So, see, no real technology payoff there. Just misspent funds and sleek, expensive but obsolete toys gathering dust parked in aircraft scrapyards in Arizona and Siberia.

But, the really cool ones that never got built -- because there were cheaper, better options -- never really went away. The space planes just got thrown into the black budget closet. Every now and then, one or two of them gets pulled out and buzzed around over China or Norway to justify the billions that are still being spent on their development.

So we, who still, half a century after these things were publicly declared obsolete or too expensive, we are still paying for them. But, don't ask too many questions - they're labeled "UFOs." As we all know, serious people aren't interested in that.

The fact is, the unexplained aerial events millions of people have been seeing in recent years are all readily explainable by known technology. For example, the spectacular laminar separation "bursts" observed in the contrail flow of the vehicle seen in the video over China are the same as illustrated in NASA-released documents of airflow at Mach 7 over the X-37 fuselage, below. This technology is so old that it's declassified as historical material. The enormous vapor contrails seen in the video may well be the result of the injection of cooling liquid into the extremely hot boundary layer surrounding the skin of the aircraft, a technique described in the NACA hypersonic space plane studies of 1957. See, http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4302/ch2.12.htm

In the 1950s, the X-15 already traveled at this speed, the only real difference is that this is a lifting body with an airbreathing engine that extends the burn period and range of its powered flight path. Turn it into a mystery, recycle 'fifties tech, and continue to spend billions of dollars half a century later.

Same principle of known science also applies to the NSA's computational technologies. Like manned bombers, there's no revolution on the horizon for an IT solution to fighting terrorism - after having billions of dollars thrown at it for a decade, the "revolution" in computer profiling of threats is over. It's a technological dead-end. While huge black budgets continue to fund domestic spying programs, the usable technology payoff isn't very great, but the profits for federal contractors which build these things never seem to go away.

Watch the skies.

But, you know, there isn't anything that much more advanced. Technological advance isn't linear

for 100 year periods in singular applications. Yes, we can build remotely-piloted Mach 7 scram jets and sometimes we show this stuff off (e.g., the "UFO" over China last year), but the X-47/51 follow-on isn't orders of magnitude more advanced than the SR-71/X-15 technology of the 1950s.

It would take a real order of magnitude advance to develop a Pre-cog type actionable CT intelligence program from the mass driftnets and profiling algorithms NSA/DHS uses today. The electronic take is so compromised by program considerations -- we don't want to blow double-agents already in place in targeted groups -- that even when we do obtain hard actionable intelligence, most of the time nothing is done with it.

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