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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:14 PM

 

I wonder if President Obama is changing his calculation.

I think he fully intended to wait to the primaries are over to endorse. But I’m thinking now if Joe wins Michigan and Washington he many move up the timetable.

It is apparent Bernie is taking this into the gutter. His endorsement would not stop it. But would make clear it is not being done by democrats. He can’t want another 2016 and his endorsement would likely secure Biden a majority of the delegates.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Reply I wonder if President Obama is changing his calculation. (Original post)
GulfCoast66 Mar 2020 OP
left-of-center2012 Mar 2020 #1
GulfCoast66 Mar 2020 #2
Joinfortmill Mar 2020 #3
left-of-center2012 Mar 2020 #5
Rainbow Droid Mar 2020 #24
showblue22 Mar 2020 #4
grantcart Mar 2020 #22
Thekaspervote Mar 2020 #6
GulfCoast66 Mar 2020 #8
betsuni Mar 2020 #10
Skittles Mar 2020 #7
UncleNoel Mar 2020 #9
SiliconValley_Dem Mar 2020 #11
Celerity Mar 2020 #12
GulfCoast66 Mar 2020 #13
Celerity Mar 2020 #15
GulfCoast66 Mar 2020 #16
Celerity Mar 2020 #19
GulfCoast66 Mar 2020 #21
Celerity Mar 2020 #26
quakerboy Mar 2020 #25
Celerity Mar 2020 #27
DrToast Mar 2020 #14
Tarheel_Dem Mar 2020 #17
GulfCoast66 Mar 2020 #18
Farmer-Rick Mar 2020 #20
GulfCoast66 Mar 2020 #23
Indykatie Mar 2020 #28
BidenBacker Mar 2020 #29

Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:17 PM

1. If Biden keeps winning ...

 

Obama won't have to say anything.
Why would he?
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Reply #1)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:23 PM

2. Because it would allow him to get into the fray 2 months early.

 

He is still very popular and would destroy trump if he could run. Having him made selected statements or speech’s could set the Democratic Party up for success going into the convention.

And we lost 2016 in part because African Americans were not as inspired to vote as in 08 an 12. Seeing he and Joe together could change that paradigm.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:25 PM

3. Amen

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:28 PM

5. i don't think Obama wants to 'get into the fray'

 

He'll support the ticket but I don't see him campaigning.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Reply #5)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 02:03 AM

24. I don't see how he has any choice. This is his 8-year veep who supported him on everything,

 

and he was replaced by a total madman who made it his mission to reverse everything Obama accomplished, no matter how important the accomplishments were to American public health, economic health, institutional health, national security, etc, you name it. If Obama did it Trump has reversed it or is trying to reverse it.

I expect to see Obama heavily involved in this campaign.

He simply has to be.

2020 is about "Sanity vs Insanity". It's about "Sense vs Nonsense".

Obama left a legacy of Sanity and Sense that Insanity and Nonsense is trying to reverse, and his own man is running in his own party, on his own platform.

He can't avoid being involved, and I'll be very disappointed in him if he tries.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:27 PM

4. Obama should say something. This is out of control and it's bad.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to showblue22 (Reply #4)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 01:55 AM

22. It's not out of control. Statistically it will be over in 48 hours.

 


Obama is simply waiting so he can be a unifying force.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:28 PM

6. Oh.. I don't know about that. Obama jumping in now may only make the outcry of rigged

 

Against Biden worse. More half truths that will hit below the belt
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to Thekaspervote (Reply #6)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:32 PM

8. I don't doubt it. But wheat from chaff.

 

Someone attacking President Obama is unlikely to vote for Biden regardless.

That said, one thing I don’t doubt. President Obama is smarter and a way better politician than me or most people. I trust he will calculate the best course of action.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to Thekaspervote (Reply #6)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:50 PM

10. Luckily, Bernie has that ad of he and Obama being pals.

 

Only the real nuts will keep up the rigged stuff. Little chance anyone else will be fooled again, in my opinion. Having said that, I'm paranoid that there ARE a lot of people, nutty or not, who will get fooled again...
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:31 PM

7. maybe he is reluctant to endorse

 

yup
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:44 PM

9. Joe is doing it on his own,--building the Biden Coalition Revolution.

 

Not the revolution Bernie imagined!
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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:59 PM

11. People of America have seen this act before

 

They will vote for Biden and work to launch him to the White House to send Trump home and then hopefully jail.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 12:10 AM

12. If Obama appears to be bigfooting the Bern, the defection rate from Sanders voters will instantly

 

double (or more) for the general. I am sure President Obama knows this.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to Celerity (Reply #12)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 12:21 AM

13. You really think so?

 

I figure it differently. Those that will never vote for anyone but Bernie are built in.

I mean, unless a dedicated socialist who truly thinks all capitalist are the same, the fight against Trump is existential.

I guess the wildcard is Bernie himself. If once it is apparent he will not win he keeps on we can count on a 16 redo and plan accordingly. But he will be going in with a much smaller percentage of the delegates. He gains more leverage by playing ball with Joe.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #13)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 01:09 AM

15. TBH, I have zero clue how far Sanders will push things, and his 2020 voters are vastly more

 

radical, non Democrat Party-friendly (millions have never even been members), and far more burn it all down-types than his 2016 voters were.

They are far more likely to do crazy shit now than before. I can easily see them passing up the defection rate of Clinton's primary voters in 2008 (around 24 to 25% voted McCain, 5% did not vote.) I think if Bernie does things badly, and then Obama were to get prematurely involved, you could see a 35% or even 40% defection rate (although not so many straight to Trump, that will stay around the 10 to 12% range like in 2016, I think.) I think a shedload will either not vote or will go 3rd party if Bernie does really make a huge effort to prevent that.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Celerity (Reply #15)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 01:17 AM

16. Not going to disagree. You seem to have studied this more than me.

 

I’ve always been right of Bernie but not by that much. My biggest turnoff was the whole cult of personality thing. Reminds me of someone else and his followers. Politicians who encourage this, no matter the ideology or time are dangerous. Even if that is not their intention. Events can swirl out of control then the followers start controlling the followed.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #16)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 01:31 AM

19. he lost me when he wilfully and incorrectly self-labelled as a democratic socialist when he is

 

nothing more than a bog standard social democrat. It is madness to try and re-define globally accepted definitions, some which are 200 years or more old. It also is so damaging, as in the reactionary American zeitgeist, it gives the goddamn Rethugs a self-made hand grenade to blow up our entire party with by smearing us ALL as socialists (which equates to communist in vast swathes low IQ 'Murica). They have tried this all the time in the past, but now they have Bernie, in 1000 speeches and videos, calling himself one.

Even worse (potentially), he does have actual REAL socialists (all over, like Jacobin, the DSA, etc etc) and more than few (again in the DSA) real Trotskyists and other types of actual communists backing him. They look at Bernie as simply a means to an end, with that end being actual expropriation of the means of production (a thing that Bernie has said for a couple decades now he does not believe in.) They LOVE Sanders using their label falsely, as they think it opens up the door to slide on in to tangible, real power over the coming several decades.

It is a giant clusterfuck of epic proportions.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Celerity (Reply #19)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 01:47 AM

21. I disagree. Have you ever heard him Disavow the DSA goals?

 

I haven’t. If nothing else, the guy is brutally honest in his politics. I generally believe it when people tell you what they are. He is way more versed in socialist ideology than me yet still calls himself a Democratic Socialist. I believe him.

So he does not openly espouse them. I think the biggest mistake the other candidates have made in the debates is they never asked him. I honestly believe he would either admit to it or at least go mealy mouthed.

Our mistake is assuming he is a contrarian Democrat. I’ll believe to my dying day that in the first debate had Hillary ask him as a Democratic Socialist does he support the DSA platform where eventually the state owns the means of production he would have either admitted it or danced around the issue. It’s who he is.

He knows what a Democratic Socialist is. Better than I do. And still claims to be one. I respect the guy enough to believe him.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #21)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 02:24 AM

26. here is my full explanation, including Bernie disavowing actual socialism

 

I think at one point in his early life, he likely was an actual socialist, but I think he realised that it was never going to work out (nor happen) here in reactionary, hyper-capitalistic America.

The very definitions of social democrat and democratic socialist are fundamentally divergent. I do so wish he would stop with the semantic games. Then again, the irony is his false labelling finally turned around and bit him in the arse. Let us ALL hope that it doesn't hurt us that much in the general.

Socialism's end goal is state/societal control of the means of production (at large levels, not mom and pop businesses under most forms, although some truly radical socs even want to do away with that level), ofttimes via nationalisation or collective ownership. I can assure you that that is not the endgame in ANY of the social democracies on the planet.

Some (NON DU) Sanders supporters are actual socialists (as stated before, parts of the DSA, the Jacobin magazine group, etc), but they cannot try and say that is the same as bog standard social democratic forms of governance and economic ordering. They can come here to Sweden (I am doing post grad studies in Stockholm and we may well stay here for years as we truly adore it) and try and tell them they live in a socialist nation. They will laugh at them, just as they would laugh at a RW American saying the same thing (albeit the RW says that for different reasons.)

Sweden has a very robust capitalist system as one of its fundamental organising principles, they just do a far better job at regulation and steering the outcomes of it, especially in terms of income inequality, which is the most important overarching and interlocking statistic that determines the well-being of a nation state.

Bernie's stubbornness in terms of false self-labelling (as a democratic socialist) via to his futile attempts try to change close to 200 year old, pervasive, globally accepted (at both academic levels and in everyday informal parlance) political/economic definitions is not only suicidal electorally speaking, but has the spillover effect of doing great damage to our Democratic Party as a whole. It feeds into bullshit RW messaging that falsely smears us all as socialists and thus (in the reactionary and woefully brainwashed USA) the even more false and loaded term, 'commies.'


now, here is Bernie in his own words:


What socialism is — according to Bernie Sanders

U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders has been calling himself a democratic socialist since the 1960s.
Bernie's use of the word "socialist" has attracted both love and ire from the left.
His definition of socialism is vague, but is the basis for many peoples' understanding of the concept.


https://bigthink.com/politics-current-affairs/what-is-socialism-bernie-sanders?rebelltitem=3#rebelltitem3

snip

Luckily for us, Senator Sanders explained his political philosophy in a speech he delivered at Georgetown University in 2015. (The entire speech can be viewed here.)

He begins by referring to the New Deal of President Franklin Roosevelt and pointing out the good that it did for a country in the depths of the Great Depression:

"He saw one-third of a nation ill-housed, ill-clad, ill-nourished. And he acted. Against the ferocious opposition of the ruling class of his day, people he called economic royalists, Roosevelt implemented a series of programs that put millions of people back to work, took them out of poverty and restored their faith in government. He redefined the relationship of the federal government to the people of our country. He combated cynicism, fear and despair. He reinvigorated democracy. He transformed the country. . . . And, by the way, almost everything he proposed was called 'socialist.'"


The senator then muses on several issues facing the United States, income inequality, unemployment, high rates of childhood poverty, the high cost of medical care, and a declining faith in our political system, among others, and decides that the concentration of wealth and power is both the root cause of them and the key reason why we have failed to solve them. His solution, of course, is "socialism." It is then that he gives us his conception of what that is:

"Democratic socialism means that we must create an economy that works for all, not just the very wealthy. Democratic socialism means that we must reform a political system in America today which is not only grossly unfair but, in many respects, corrupt."


He goes a bit into the particulars of policy and explained that his conception of socialism would require — this is what it would look like — universal health care, total employment, free college education, more public spending, a living wage, environmental regulations, and a robust democratic culture to come into existence. He flatly denied any interest in nationalization, telling the audience:

"So the next time you hear me attacked as a socialist, remember this: I don't believe government should own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a fair deal."


The contents of this speech were very similar to other statements he has made about socialism across his entire political career. The entire speech could have been summed up neatly in a quote he gave to the Associated Press back in 1997:

"To me, socialism doesn't mean state ownership of everything, by any means, it means creating a nation, and a world, in which all human beings have a decent standard of living."


Wait a moment, praise for the New Deal? No interest in nationalization? That definition sounds a lot like capitalism!

You might have noticed that this program focuses on making capitalism work better and not replacing it with an entirely new system based on social ownership. This has made his definition of socialism a matter of contention.

While "socialism" is a system based around replacing private ownership of the means of production with social ownership, which generally means having the workers own and operate them instead — either through cooperatives or the state — Bernie hasn't shown much of an interest in using the government to promote this change.

Bernie's explanation of "socialism" is, in fact, closer to what political philosophers refer to as "social democracy." This is a capitalist system, since the means of production are still privately owned, where the state heavily regulates the economy and has an active welfare system in place to correct for the worst problems inherent to capitalism like inequality, cyclic instability, or the profit motive encouraging people to do things against the public interest.


snip



FDR went out of his way to say no to socialism, so it is rubbish for Sanders to claim that the New Deal was democratic socialism



What FDR Understood About Socialism That Today’s Democrats Don’t

He ruled at the height of government activism, but saw ideology as something to fear, not embrace.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/08/16/democrats-socialism-fdr-roosevelt-227622

President Franklin D. Roosevelt arrived at Franklin Field on the campus of the University of Pennsylvania in characteristic style: beaming, from the back seat of an open car. He had earned this smile. It was June 27, 1936, and he had just been re-nominated by acclamation in the smoke-filled Philadelphia Convention Center a few blocks away. It was, arguably, the high-water-mark of his career. Thanks to the monumental initiatives of Roosevelt’s first term, it was also a moment of transcendent significance in the nation’s history, though none of the 100,000 people sweating in the yellow-brick football stadium realized it. This was the pinnacle of American socialism, by that or any other name.

In the four years just past, Roosevelt had transformed the purpose of the United States government, making it a constant companion in the lives of Americans. The Social Security Act of the previous year was merely the crowning achievement. Roosevelt’s initiatives, meant to curb the misery brought on by the Great Depression, directly funded millions of government jobs, employing everyone from photographers to brush-clearing conservation workers. To pay for this, he raised the income tax—which hadn’t even existed two decades earlier—to 75 percent on the highest incomes. The rich were subsidizing the poor, and that was A-OK with FDR.

The giant crowd bristled with excitement to hear their hero defend these policies. What followed was his so-called “Rendezvous with Destiny” speech, which historians rank among the greatest of his career, a tall order from the man whose oratorical roster included “nothing to fear but fear itself,” and “a day that will live in infamy.” But while those speeches perfectly captured individual moments, Roosevelt’s “Rendezvous with Destiny” speech came far closer to revealing his inner theories and motivations: Never before or after would he lay out his vision in greater clarity.

That vision included one truly insistent message: He was not a socialist.

Though he never used the term socialism in his speech, Roosevelt’s anger at those who accused him of ideological motivations, of applying an economic theory that was anathema to the United States, exploded from the lectern. In line after line, the fiery president defended his actions as pragmatic responses to the real, glaring needs of a changing society. The rich who criticized him, who cloaked their greed in an affinity for capitalism, were dangerously missing his point. He knew the ideological threats of communism and of fascism were real, and were overtaking democracy in European countries. An etched-in-stone commitment to the status quo would be an invitation to extremists everywhere. By fulfilling the government’s obligation to assist its people, he was instilling confidence in the American system. He was vindicating the Founding Fathers.

snip



“Is the New Deal Socialism?” by Norman Thomas

Norman Thomas was the most prominent spokesperson for the Socialist Party of America in the 1930s and 1940s. He ran six times for president on the SP ballot line. Recently, an article by Seth Ackerman of Jacobin magazine argued that Thomas acknowledged that President Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal programs had socialist aspects and this, essentially, is why Bernie Sanders isn’t wrong to invoke the New Deal legacy when he uses the term “democratic socialism.” Nevertheless, the pamphlet from 1936 that we partially reproduce here makes it clear that Thomas didn’t think that the New Deal equaled socialism and that Roosevelt was no socialist.



https://newpol.org/is-the-new-deal-socialism-by-norman-thomas/

Mr. Roosevelt and his followers assume that prosperity is coming back because of the New Deal. Al Smith and the rest of Roosevelt’s assorted critics assume that it is in spite of the New Deal and perhaps because of the Supreme Court. Mr. Hoover plaintively protests that the catastrophic depression of January – February, 1933, was due merely to the shudders of the body politic anticipating the economic horrors of the New Deal.

As a Socialist, I view the Smith – Roosevelt controversy with complete impartiality. I am little concerned to point out the inconsistencies in Al Smith’s record, or to remind him that in 1924 and 1928, when I happened to be the Socialist candidate for high office against him, more than one of his close political friends came to me to urge me as a Socialist not to attack him too severely since he really stood for so many of the things that Socialists and other progressive workers wanted.

But I am concerned to point out how false is the charge that Roosevelt and the New Deal represent socialism. What is at state is not prestige or sentimental devotion to a particular name. What is at state is a clear understanding of the issues on which the peace and prosperity of generations — perhaps centuries — depend. A nation which misunderstands socialism as completely as Al Smith misunderstands it is a nation which weakens its defense against the coming of war and fascism.

But, some of you will say, isn’t it true, as Alfred E. Smith and a host of others before him have charged, that Roosevelt carried out most of the demands of the Socialist platform? This charge is by no means peculiar to Mr. Smith. I am told that a Republican speaker alleged that Norman Thomas rather than Franklin D. Roosevelt has been President of the United States. I deny the allegation and defy the allegator, and I suspect I have Mr. Roosevelt’s support in this denial. Matthew Woll, leader of the forces of reaction in the American Federation of Labor, is among the latest to make the same sort of charge.

Roosevelt Not Socialist

Emphatically, Mr. Roosevelt did not carry out the Socialist platform, unless he carried it out on a stretcher.


snip

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to Celerity (Reply #15)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 02:15 AM

25. Actually, we have an easy way to know EXACTLY how far bernie will push things

 

Because he has said what he will do. There are dozens of articles with titles that all amount to "Bernie says he will drop out if Biden has a plurality going to the convention".

Bernie has said what he would do. He's not even holding out for Biden to have a majority. He won't contest a plurality.

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/sanders-agrees-the-person-with-the-most-delegates-at-the-convention-wins-80035909591

Together we can beat trump. If we turn on ourselves, split the party and spend all our time trying to invalidate our own fellow party members.. we will just repeat 2016. Lets not do that. Lets be better.
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Response to quakerboy (Reply #25)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 02:34 AM

27. well, I remain a wee bit unconvinced but I will take him at his word

 

I do find it ironic that even taking away ALL SD's in 2016, Clinton still had a plurality of pledged delegates (she did not quite have enough total delegates to win without a some, NOT all, of the SD's) and STILL Bernie tried to take the nomination. Now he is saying he will not do this? I sure hope so.

TBH, Biden will get well over 1991 in just pledged, so there will be no second ballot anyway. (thank fuck, lolol)

Also, Bernie may well do this, and I hope he does, but my main fear is that he truly makes a REAL effort to get ALL of his voters to vote for Biden. There is zero chance all will do so, no matter what he says, but he truly needs to try and ensure that number is as small as possible.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 12:58 AM

14. This may sound crazy, but I don't think Bernie will push as hard this time

 

Soon, he’s going to be several hundred delegates behind Biden and even he knows the rest of the primaries favor Biden. I predict he will drop out before Biden reaches a majority of delegates.
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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 01:25 AM

17. Of course it's up to Pres. Obama, but I think would cause untold damage. He's a brilliant man,

 

and I think he wants to maintain the appearance of being even handed. We can certainly wait until after GA for any of our former Presidents to get involved. Now, say if Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton came out for Sanders, it would definitely be time for Obama to speak up. However, I think they will all follow the traditional protocol. Remember, someone has to bring us all together when the dust settles.
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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #17)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 01:30 AM

18. I generally agree. But I also think those on the Bernie Bus

 

Who will not vote for Biden are baked in the cake. They won’t even with an amicable solution.

Because they hate the Democratic Party as much as the Republican.

The ones who will are also baked in.

But I also agree. Obama will make the correct choice.
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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 01:43 AM

20. Biden wins a handful of states and Bernie is suppose to drop out?

 

Let's see how well Biden does going forward. I think he ain't there yet.
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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #20)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 01:58 AM

23. Did you not read the prefix to my statement that if Biden Wins Michigan and Washington?

 

Which unlike some here I think is not assured.

But if Biden wins those Bernie has no path to the nomination. He will get destroyed in Florida and it will be close in New York. Then all the big delegate states are gone.

If Bernie sweeps Michigan and Washington in commanding fashion it is game on.

But if Bernie wins by a few percentage points it will be a slow process and no way Obama should get involved.
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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 03:23 AM

28. Obama Won't Jump Into the Fray Nor Should He Until Biden Locks In The Nomination

 

Let Biden earn this on his own. He's got this.
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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 03:55 AM

29. Obama should stay out for a while

 

I'm looking at April 7th as a big day myself. That's the day that Wisconsin votes and if Bernie can't win in progressive WI then forgedaboudit. Even if he does eke out a slim victory that's when we get to 2/3 of the primaries being in the books and the cold hard math may be irrefutable by then.

Plus April is a weird month...after WI there is nothing for 3 full weeks. If Sanders is way behind with no chance then it would be good for him to exit stage left at that time. That gives an extra 3 weeks to start consolidating and turning our full attention to the Gopper goon in the WH...why spend that time throwing bombs at Biden when you've already lost the war?

Bernie fell behind Hillary in 2016 in delegates but he still won a lot of states...like 22. But if he gets to April 7th and we can count the number of states he won on both hands and still have fingers left over then it's "Sayonara, Sanders!".
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