"The best known socialist in America"

If you're a capitalist, isn't the idea of being good at it the goal?

it is regulated by democratic governments acting in the interests of the people. Which makes her a socialist of the market reform 'social democrat' variety.

Both Sanders and Warren represent a stark contrast from the Reagan/Thatcher 'free market' neoliberalism that has dominated the economic policies of both parties since the 80s.

False. Socialist and social Democrat are not interchangeable terms. In one, the operative noun is socialist. In the other, it is Democrat. They're not even remotely the same thing.

No, I don't know who your audience is, but I believe that you are implying that Sanders has branded himself a socialist, and that brand will never die. And that's because the opposition is clever enough to see an opening to attack Sanders, and they're using "socialist" as a noun and not an adjective. They do the same with "Democratic" and "Democrat."

You will never persuade people who buy into the fear that's conveyed by the opposition. All you can do, IMO, is tell the truth. If your audience doesn't listen, it's on them.

The odd thing about Sanders and his democratic socialism is that his marquee policies are extraordinary in that they are entirely MAINSTREAM. Were Sanders to drop his brand as a democratic socialist, or social democrat-- eliminate the "social" part of his brand-- his proposed policies would sound far less intimidating to whomever thinks that Sanders would become the next Stalin or Lenin. (BTW, I suspect that 80% of those who fear Sanders' brand have no idea what Lenin and Stalin did during the USSR's heyday. It's the wonderfully implied pejorative that is effective, without ever having to give a history lesson.)

Sanders' proposals are looked upon favorably by a significant majority of citizens. So maybe that makes the nation a profoundly liberal place that is choked and gagged by corporate elites and billionaires whose lobbyists are embedded in Congress and the corporate media.

That's just a guess.

Socialist in the context in which he uses it is always a noun, never an adjective. Whether he's describing himself as a socialist or a democratic socialist, "socialist" is a noun. Your assertion to the contrary is rather odd. In the term "social Democrat", social is, of course, an adjective, but that's not what he calls himself. Unless it's situationally necessary, he doesn't call himself a Democrat of any stripe.

The audience is people who apparently don't know anything about Sanders prior to 2015. He did indeed tag himself with a label decades ago, and he's done nothing to dissuade people from adjusting it or really helped them understand it, even though, in a bit of irony, it was never really accurate.

The "democratic" part is a recent addition meant to deflect the "socialist" part from criticism. He's not a socialist and according to the DSA, he's not really a democratic socialist, either. They endorsed in him spite of the fact, not because of it. They think he could serve as a useful tool to pursue their agenda, which is overthrowing capitalism. The problem, of course, is that Bernie's not in favor of doing so.

"Were Sanders to drop his brand as a democratic socialist, or social democrat-- eliminate the "social" part of his brand"

Which he should have done decades ago, and certainly when he decided to run for president. It's an issue in a national campaign and all the explaining in the world isn't going to change that fact.

"Which makes her a socialist of the market reform 'social democrat' variety." It does make a difference.

The assertion is still wrong. She's simply not a socialist. For that matter, neither is Bernie, but that doesn't stop him from claiming otherwise.

The political opposition has seized upon the "socialist" part of the branding and is using it as a pejorative. You can't control that. And when you respond to that attack on the brand, you are giving credence to the opposition's narrative and you sound defensive. In essence, the opposition is calling Sanders names. "He's old and has white hair" doesn't get a lot of traction. "He points too much with his right index finger" sounds picky and trivial. But call him a socialist, and the earth's magnetic poles are reversed. THAT has traction because of the implied danger that socialism will ruin society's core democratic values and way of life. It's all myth-building, but don't tell that to the guy wearing a MAGA hat. He's five miles inside the Trumpian bubble and can't see the outside.

One of the few ways out of this circling toilet water is to merely cite the policies Sanders proposes and make it as clear as your tap water that his proposals are FAVORED by the majority of Americans in poll after poll, and that makes Sanders' policy proposals as American as apple pie.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. It's a duck.

If she considers herself to be a Democratic Socialist, and wanted people to think of her as one, she would refer to herself as such.

And she doesn't.

Is that clearer?

Because of all the shit that's being thrown at Bernie.

http://inthesetimes.com/article/22165/sanders-warren-populist-progressivism-new-deal-democratic-socialism

Link to tweet

I don't think she's lying. I think she's not quite honest with herself.

The United States isn't a pure capitalist country. We have many socialist programs.

Social Security
Medicare, Medicaid and SSI
Public Schools
Fire and Police Departments
Public Works departments that build roads
Most city water, sewer and trash
United States Post Office
Until recently most prisons

Most people are good with this. There are a few Libertarians and Republicans that would like to tear all this down.


Some of us. Including Elizabeth Warren would like to expand it to healthcare and college. She also mentioned public daycare.

And we need to stop this "socialist" stuff because that is where the republican propaganda is planning to pound on any of the Democrats, whoever wins the nomination will be labeled as such, so why are we helping republicans spread that label when we know it is not true?

Man, talk about shooting ourselves on the foot.

which is opposite of our current downward spiral to "unregulated capitalism." Totally different from "socialism."

Hoo-boy! It's getting deep in here!

Warren believes in well-regulated capitalism, regulated enough that it benefits the broad middle class, rather than the rich. Her whole career has been about harnessing the economy to grow and benefit the greatest number (the middle class). She is more like Eisenhower, whose top tax rate was 90%. You are right to contrast her with a trickle-down Republican like Reagan!

then how you expect others to acknowledge that there is a spectrum of forms of socialism?

Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, France etc.? The only "socialist" aspects in those countries are public education, universal healthcare and various forms of social programs (maternity leave, old age pensions, welfare etc.). In all other aspects these are capitalist countries.

So my question is -- why the emphasis on "socialism" when discussing universal healthcare? You already haver public education, social security, Medicaid etc.

That's the point.

Neither of them said that "it seemed “immoral” that millionaires represent the people of their states.] They actually represent “the interests of corporations and big business — their fellow millionaires," then became a proud, unapologetic millionaire monetizing their fame via sales on those sterling examples of under-regulated capitalism, Walmart and Amazon.

https://imgur.com/a/dtT8iGm
(1971 Bennington Banner)

It appears that following through with what he stated "the people have the right to know" by releasing his comprehensive medical records isn't the only the Jr. Senator from Vermont has had a 'change of heart' about.

It is a dangerous path to go out criticizing people who have earned their wealth honestly, there are the crooks like the trumps and then there are Bloomberg, the Bezzo, Fred Smith (FedEx) who have worked very hard to earn their money, that needs to be admired, not denigrated. Maybe yes, they should pay their workers better, yes they should pay more taxes, yes the loopholes for rich people should be eliminated, then lets sound those drums until they get it, but to try to make these people evil is the wrong path.

Anyway, I didn't find a point there either.

Also, this thing that we have to vote for a "real Democrat" I know it is geared against Sanders and Warren, and the only thing I can say is take your time to go to their websites and learn about their agendas, these are progressive Democrats, which is what the country needs. I like Joe, but to have him as our nominee will imply more of the same, he is so ingrained in the status quo that it is difficult for him to see any other way.

[link:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/04/joe-biden-electable-trump-2020-election|

This ridiculous notion that M4A is not possible also has to stop, it is very possible, the studies have proven time and again that it is not only possible but that it will save money, that our country will be healthier. The food and medical industry are killing this country, and people need to open their eyes to this epidemic that only cares about money, M4A will end that, preventive medicine will reduce costs and will make us all much healthier.

Why has M4A not happen yet? Because people like Biden, Mayor Pete, Klobucher don't believe it can, republicans know it is possible but it is not in their self-interest to make it happen, republicans are corrupt, they don't care what is good for the country they only care for what is good for their pockets.

Sanders is the only one speaking to the outrages we all know exist.

You want another moderate?

Not me.

The people who told us we got to nominate Clinton or we will get Trump are now telling us if we dont follow them again were gonna get Trump for another 4 years.

Give it a rest already

...are the ones who flipped all of about zero seats in the 2018 elections.

And I don't remember anyone telling anyone that Hillary needed to be nominated to beat Trump. Hillary was pretty much the presumptive nominee (the mathematical winner after Super Tuesday, I believe) well before the Republican Party even nominated Trump, so, don't try it with that revisionist history.

In 2016 the rhetoric was that Sanders could not beat trump, and the disenfranchising of Sanders base was at full force, the same as it is happening now.

The same calls of "Socialism", "the angry guy", etc. (just Google it), is exactly what we hear today, nothing has changed and my personal fear is that we are disenfranchising, again, Sanders base which we need to get the crooks out of office.

Most of the seats we gained in Congress in 2018 were from MODERATE candidates that Sanders and his cohorts spurned. Many of them are the same candidates that are now openly stating they are afraid that Sanders will win the nomination because it will hurt their chances at reelection.

preference Biden?

Did you click on the wrong link while setting your preference?

This one true savior bullshit is tiresome.

Warren covers far more ground than Bernie AND speaks to the outrageous sexism and misogyny we all know exists. She took on Bloomberg the billionaire far more successfully than Sanders ever would. She will bring them all down to earth.

By the way, Clinton won millions more votes. It took treason to keep her out of office.

All of our candidates are speaking about similar issues, and Warren is particularly assertive at addressing them in significantly more detail than Sanders.

Sanders isn't unique with his perspective on Democratic or social issues. Democrats of many stripes have been fighting for similar issues for decades. Politics didn't start in 2015 when he decided to run for president.

Or just Sanders?

And who exactly is this "us" Sanders has disparaged? He hasn't disparaged me. He has certainly disparaged a party leadership that has put wall street before main street.

As Biden would say, "get your facts straight, Jack!"

It is the 'public' part of 'public defender'.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/07/bernie-sanders-vermont-119927

His work in the 1960s:



Note that the Head Start and property taxation jobs were for the government. The work for the nonprofit was to register people for food stamps. And we don't know who ran the psychiatric hospital where he worked as an aide.


The 1970s:



Note that one of the magazines he wrote for was state-supported.


He was broke through the 1970s, putting most of his time into failed campaigns for the Liberty Union party.

Until he finally got lucky enough, by 10 votes, to win that mayor's race in Burlington.

a way to make money.

I would have chipped in funds for carpentry classes.

benefit their candidate. Fact Distortion is their MO.

I remember. He was writing rape fantasies. Was that a job?

Do you likewise think the "public" part of Certified Public Accountant means that all CPAs work for the government?

In some areas, public defenders do work for the government, whereas in other areas, they are private attorneys that have been approved by the courts. I'm not sure which Biden was, but as another poster already pointed out, Biden most certainly worked in private practice during his early career, so your point is moot regardless.

he wouldn't have needed a college degree for, including being a bad carpenter (his friends' assessment).

But Sanders spent most of his thirties, when he already had a child, running repeatedly for office for a fringe leftwing party that had no chance of getting anywhere, making so little money he couldn't keep his electric bill paid, writing eccentric opinion pieces for publications that paid almost nothing, and traveling all over Vermont hitting the same political talking points he tends to hit now.

If a friend hadn't talked him into running for mayor of Burlington, and if Sanders hadn't managed to squeak out a victory by only 10 votes, God knows where Sanders would be now. Once he won that election he got some media attention and he ran with it.

Then Sanders also suddenly had some money, though his own writings while mayor explained that he was having trouble with such basic things as paying his bills, keeping his car repaired, and keeping his home tidy enough to have people over.

My impression is that Jane later provided the stability Bernie needed to deal with those basic things.

pie-in-the-sky ideas to brainwash young people. No thanks.

Thousands of Vermonters own a summer camp.

He needs to work on that.

I was trying to remember the exact word!

I'm sorry, I need to see a picture. I'm originally from Long Island where wealthy NYers have "summer cottages" in the Hamptons.

Paid in cash.

for which they paid cash.

Yep, everyone in Vermont does that...

In my neck of the woods people do have cabins that are very small along the lake or river called "camps." Some are basically trailers, others just small cottages that are closed up during the winter and are usually held within the same family for generations. Of course there are some more palatial properties that wealthy people bought and built up. For those of us who don't have second properties, we just try to enter the lottery for a campground or cabin in the state park system.

...and yet even they couldn't afford the type of healthcare plan that Sanders wants to implement? No wonder he can't/won't give specifics on his healthcare plan.

On many boards with Vermonters they have one Health Insurance company, no Doctors, no jobs, taxes killing the elderly because they are all that is left as the young are leaving for jobs.

Just ask AOC.

he wants others to. The golden rule turned upside down.

https://www.businessinsider.com/joe-biden-net-worth-lifestyle-real-estate-family-wealth-assets-2020-1

"The couple earned a $15.6 million income between 2017 and 2018 from book royalties and paid speaking engagements, according to financial disclosures reported on by Forbes."

After a lifetime spent in public service Biden deservedly got his monetary rewards - OUT OF OFFICE. He lives in a 300k house he paid for with a mortgage like the rest of us, and his wife is a working mom ( like most of us strong, independent liberal women) who supported Joe's dedicated and unselfish public service.

As any lawyer will tell you: don't ask a question that you don't know the answer to.

why do i feel like there are russians and/ or republicans on here sowing discord and division. pretending to be independents or moderates not really discussing policy but only throwing stones.

DU is breaking out into more pie fights than usual. I cannot believe that young folks really get so worked up about Bernie. They have jobs, families, and bills to pay.

"BernieBros" seem to be multiplying like tribbles. Someone must be paying for it somewhere.

comparing Socialism with capitalism. What we have in the US isn't capitalism, it is crony capitalism.

Don’t be fooled again!

...all the more reason for Sanders and his supporters to call them out, yes?

A millionaire who earned his money fairly and takes up for poor people. As far as I know he never cheated a contractor by refusing to pay and isn't a slumlord.

Is begging poor people -- who might not even be able to afford food or are scraping by trying to make ends meet -- to save up a few dollars and donate them to your campaign so that you can turn around and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars buying your own books that made you a multi-millionaire "fair?" I would say not.

(insert demographic). All is lost.

I thought the quote from Senator Warren:

“I’d like to talk about who we’re running against—a billionaire who calls women fat broads and horse-faced lesbians,” said Warren. “No, I’m not talking about Donald Trump. I’m talking about Michael Bloomberg.”

was spectacular.


The hit on Sanders underwhelmed me coming from a man with more that fifty three thousand million dollars hitting on a guy with a house in DC (He's a Senator after all), a house in his home state (yeah, kind of normal) and a cabin in the woods (yeah, so what).

Let's talk about Bloomies helicopter fleet.

Or those NDAs. (They were "consensual"

Or his taxes ("I can't just use Turbo Tax"...like you peons?)

Or his cluelessness (Do you deserve $53B? "Yes, I worked hard for it." Like millions in America don't? WTF?)

who has had 6 figure government jobs for a very long time, has a house where he works, a house where he lives (and represents, so he has to have a residence there). In later years he finally splurged on a vacation "camp", as they are known in New England, mostly from the proceeds of a book deal.

Most of his assumed net worth is those houses, along with his government pension/retirement, and an estimated half million in his own retirement/investment accounts based on the savings he and his wife have worked long lives for.

If he had any less than that, you'd all be calling him too irresponsible with his money, and therefore unqualified. He's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

Could he have answered that question better last night? Sure. He could start with an overt recognition of the privilege he has compared to the working class and poor.

Then he could use my favorite way to compare things like this:

Bernie's worth of est. $2 million translates in seconds to ~23 days.

Bloomberg's $60 billion translates to 1,902 YEARS.

eta: another good comparison is to people who have been in congress and the senate as long as he has. Because he's no where near the top of that heap when it comes to net worth.

should most definitely NOT carry our banner. I’d vote Sanders before him.

inheritance money from resale of a house along with some retirement money and an advance on Sanders' book sale. It is estimated at around $575,000.

His 3rd house is in Washington DC and considering how many years he has been in Congress - it makes sense. It's valued at about $565,000 but it was bought a number of years ago at $489,000.

He still holds mortgages on 2 of the houses.

Link to his "fancy" lake house: https://heavy.com/news/2016/08/bernie-sanders-new-house-see-photos-inside-lake-home-champlain-vermont-personal-finance-disclosure-book-advance-fec-wife-jane/

Scroll down to see Bernie's fancy Vermont house (it's #6): https://www.forbes.com/sites/kamranrosen/2019/06/25/where-the-top-democratic-primary-candidates-call-home/#5ce2658624a3

Can't find a picture of his DC house but at less than $600,000 for DC . . . I'm sure it's no mansion.

Of course I can probably find you pics and prices of the other candidates' houses if you want. Google is easy.