Vox: Sanders supporters are annoying & antagonistic, so let him win, & Dems will magically get along

[highplainsdem]

Or so Matthew Yglesias -- who likes Sanders -- says, in part of the case he makes for Bernie Sanders:


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/1/7/21002895/bernie-sanders-2020-electability

Most of the fears about Sanders expressed by Democratic insiders — fears that have trickled into much of the mainstream media coverage of his campaign — are better understood as disputes with his followers than as real problems with the man himself.

His extremely online loyalists (themselves only a minority of his supporters, as with any candidate) tend to be both highly ideological and highly antagonistic. Some, including younger supporters, seem to lack a broader perspective on events. They are unrealistically optimistic about what a Sanders administration could achieve, unreasonably down on Sanders’s rivals, and simply lack appreciation of how small the differences within the Democratic field are, especially compared with the gaping void between essentially all Democrats and all Republicans under modern polarized conditions.

-snip-

At the end of the day, Sanders’s record is not nearly as scary as many establishment Democrats fear. His “revolution” rhetoric doesn’t make sense to me, but he’s been an effective mayor and legislator for a long time, and he knows how to get things done — and how hard it is to get them done.

Some of his big ideas are not so hot on the merits, but it’s not worth worrying about them because the political revolution is so unrealistic. And on a couple of issues where the next president will probably have a fair amount of latitude, Sanders breaks from the pack in good ways. He’s perhaps not an ideal electability choice, but his track record on winning elections is solid and his early polling is pretty good. There’s no particular reason to think he’d be weaker than the other three top contenders, and at least some reason to think he’d be stronger.

-snip-

Lots of moderate Democrats nonetheless find it annoying that Sanders and some of his followers are so committed to painting mainstream Democrats in such dark hues. And it is annoying! But annoying people won’t stop being annoying if he loses the nomination. If anything, they will be more annoying than ever as some refuse to get enthusiastic about the prospect of beating Trump. But if Sanders wins, partisan Democrats who just want to beat Trump will magically stop finding Bernie superfans annoying — the causes will be aligned, and the vast majority of people who want Trump out of the White House can collaborate in peace.

-snip-

But most likely, a Sanders presidency will simply mean that young progressive activists are less sullen and dyspeptic about the incremental policy gains that would result from any Democrat occupying the presidency.

-snip-

Emphasis added.


And yes, there was more to the column than this. But what's written about Sanders supporters caught my attention first because of two tweets from Yglesias a couple of days ago, starting with this tweet (full text below):

Link to tweet

Bernie Twitter does in fact contain a disproportionate number of annoying people — which prompts some anti-Bernie backlash that I think is misguided.



The underlying cause of the Annoying Bernie Twitter problem is more banal than most people realize.

His support skews young, young people tend to be a bit more headstrong & obnoxious, and a small average difference leads to big gaps in outliers.

Remember...this is an assessment of Sanders supporters by a journalist who likes Sanders, who was chosen by Vox's editors to make the case for Bernie Sanders.

[Zolorp]

1. I wish I had a dollar for everybody I know who swore they would vote for Trump if Bernie wins.

Then I would be approaching being an enemy of the working class.

Too many people I know want Trump out, but are terrified of a Sanders presidency. Scares me, too, when we have many options who are not scary to average voters.

[YOHABLO]

6. "Everybody''? How many people do you know?

[Zolorp]

7. Many

Admittedly I live in Kentucky and everybody knows everybody here.

You would be surprised by how many here voted for Trump in 2016 but are pissed off over soy bean and corn prices, not to mention other farmer issues. Most of my neighbors lost money on their farms the past two years and they blame it all on Trump.

About 2/3 would even go for Warren if they are currently against Trump over the tariffs that have destroyed their family farms.

Nearly all will take Trump again over Sanders. They are terrified of him becoming president.

The farmers were the first to go for FDR, if you look at history.

[YOHABLO]

10. Interesting. And not terrified of Trump? That's insane and ignorant.

[Zolorp]

13. Yeah, it's that sort of reaction from Sanders and his supporters that makes them terrified of him

Just want they want to hear, they are insane and ignorant fearing a communist (which Sanders admittedly was when he was a member of the SWP).

[YOHABLO]

15. Sanders is no Communist. He's a Democratic Socialist.

Google it

[Zolorp]

17. Google Socialist Workers Party

Sanders was a member. It's documented.

[YOHABLO]

20. I don't have to Google SWP. Bernie Sanders is not a Communist.

[Zolorp]

23. He was a communist. It is documented.

He ran as the SWP candidate on more than one occasion.

You cannot claim he is a Democrat now and was not a Communist then. SWP was COMMUNIST.

[vsrazdem]

39. No, he is not a communist. Talk about McCarthyism.

Bernie Sanders promotes the kind of democratic socialism that is practiced in Denmark and was featured favorably in two recent articles in The Tribune. Indeed, virtually all the countries of western and central Europe are, to a greater or lesser degree, social democracies, blending democratic governmental systems with capitalism and an extensive social sector. The German constitution specifically states that the economy will be a “social market economy.”

Communism is the totalitarian system that collapsed in eastern Europe and the Soviet Union in the ’90s and bears no relationship to democratic socialism.

[MrsCoffee]

58. SWP's position on Iran is part of what distinguishes it from democratic socialist groups.

In fact, the SWP’s position on Iran is part of what distinguishes it from democratic socialist groups. When its presidential candidate, Andrew Pulley, came to speak at the University of Vermont in October 1980, Sanders chaired the meeting. Pulley attracted only 40 students to his rally, where he concentrated, according to the SWP’s newspaper The Militant, “on the Iran-Iraq war,” and condemned “anti-Iranian hysteria around the U.S. hostages.” Military action against Iran was not at that point theoretical—Pulley’s speech came six months after the attempt to free the hostages in Operation Eagle Claw had failed.

~~~~~

The Sanders campaign did not respond to a request for comment. Asked about the SWP in 1988, Sanders, then the mayor of Burlington and a congressional candidate, talked down the connection, saying that: “I was asked to put my name on the ballot and I did, that’s true." Today, no mention of Sanders’ association with the SWP appears in any campaign biography he has issued. But Sanders remained tied to the party after 1980. He was a featured speaker at a Boston rally for the SWP’s Massachusetts gubernatorial candidate and the party’s slate for Congress in 1982, the year after he was narrowly elected mayor of Burlington. In 1984, he again spoke on behalf of the SWP’s presidential candidate, this time former Black Panther Mel Mason, telling The Militant that “at a time when the Democratic and Republican parties are intellectually and spiritually bankrupt, it is imperative for radical voices to be heard which offer fundamental alternatives to capitalist ideology." It remains unclear when Sanders’s affiliation with the SWP ended.

Of course, Sanders had a right to his beliefs. But he has not been fully transparent about what those beliefs, connections, and loyalties have been over the years. Sanders says that he has been consistently and firmly dedicated to democratic socialism. His record, however, reveals a very different story around the time of the Iranian hostage crisis.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/when-iran-took-americans-hostage-bernie-backed-irans-defenders

[TwilightZone]

61. You should do some research into the SWP.

It is quite decidedly communist. Sanders was an elector for the party in 1980. He is no longer, of course, but as the poster noted, Sanders was indeed a communist at one point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Workers_Party_(United_States)

As an aside, I often find it curious how little Sanders supporters seem to be aware of his past prior to 2015. I understand that many are new to politics, but as often as some bring up decades-old issues relating to the other candidates, it would seem like a good idea to review the same of their candidate.

[highplainsdem]

18. Sanders was an elector for the SWP, though he wasn't a member. And the SWP is a Trotskyist group

that started in the Communist Party USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Workers_Party_(United_States)

https://www.thedailybeast.com/bernies-past-with-the-far-far-far-left

[Zolorp]

22. Sanders ran as the Socialist Workers Party candidate on more than one occasion.

If his followers call him a member of the Democratic Party now, they MUST call him a member of the Socialist Workers Party then. They cannot have it both ways.

[highplainsdem]

29. Again, according to the info I just found, he was on the ballot as a presidential elector, and not

as the SWP candidate.

Joe Lockhart piece in CNN a few days ago:

http://m.cnn.com/en/article/h_b2b013b579c3336442a6c4f131303fdb

Let's start with what he calls himself (and the label Trump tries to stick to every Democrat): a socialist. There's no ducking this one -- Bernie has said a lot over the years, and a lot of it on camera. The Associated Press reports that in a 1983 reelection debate he said, "I am a socialist, of course, I am a socialist." The Washington Examiner reported last year that in 1980 and 1984, Sanders campaigned for the Socialist Workers Party. The report said that Sanders "proudly endorsed and supported" the Marxist group's presidential candidate, Andrew Pulley, in 1980. According to the report, in a press release, Sanders said, "I fully support the SWP's continued defense of the Cuban revolution."

From the Washington Examiner report Lockhart references there:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/bernie-sanders-campaigned-for-marxist-party-in-reagan-era

The 2020 Democratic presidential primary candidate and United States senator from Vermont, now 77, often scoffs at comparisons between his brand of self-described "democratic socialism" and communism. In recent years, he has said he is merely interested in having the United States look more like Sweden, a social democracy with a broad welfare state but a well-functioning private sector.

But his personal files from his time as mayor of Burlington, from 1981 to 1989, archived at the University of Vermont, show that he supported and campaigned for the communist SWP and maintained a close relationship with its senior members. While Democrats campaigned for President Jimmy Carter in 1980 and Walter Mondale in 1984, Sanders spent the Reagan era supporting fringe Marxists with no chance of reaching the White House.

In 1980, Sanders "proudly endorsed and supported" Andrew Pulley, the party's presidential candidate, who once said that American soldiers should "take up their guns and shoot their officers." Sanders was one of three electors for Pulley on the Vermont ballot, stating in a press release: "I fully support the SWP's continued defense of the Cuban revolution."

Four years later, he backed and campaigned for the SWP presidential nominee Mel Mason, a former Black Panther, saying it was important for there to be "fundamental alternatives to capitalist ideology." During the campaign, Mason praised the Russian and Chinese revolutions and said: "The greatest example of a socialist government is Cuba, and Nicaragua is right behind, but it's still developing."

[Zolorp]

30. SWP candidate then, Democratic candidate now.

Again, can't have it both ways.

[highplainsdem]

31. I agree Sanders can't very well deny his association with the SWP, since he was an elector for them

and backed their presidential candidates. He was in his late 30s and early 40s at the time of those elections, too, so he can't dismiss this as a youthful mistake.

And this is exactly the sort of thing Republicans will be able to use against him.

As Lockhart said in that CNN piece, Sanders hasn't been vetted and scrutinized enough.

[Zolorp]

32. Unlike in 2016, he is being vetted now.

These issues will continue to be uncovered.

[vsrazdem]

62. They chose him to be on the ballot, he did not run as their candidate.

[Zolorp]

70. He accepted it gladly.

He participated in events with the SWP for four years. He promoted their stance on Cuba for four years. He agreed with their political phiosophy for four years

If you do not consider him a Communist then, how can you consider him a Democrat now?

I accept that people change, but in any nationwide election, he will be considered a former communist by the vast majority of country. There is no way he can win in a GE with this stain on his record.

This is Donald Trump's wet dream for a re-election campaign opponent.

[pnwmom]

44. There are more independents than either Democrats or Republicans

and they're even less likely than vote for a Democrat if Bernie's the nominee, because he insists on the label "socialist."

[vsrazdem]

63. Not according to Morning Consult.

Sanders outperforms Biden against Trump among voters ages 18-29, those who are not interested in politics, and self-described independents.

[pnwmom]

65. Oh great. He outperforms IN POLLS among people unlikely to vote. nt

[vsrazdem]

67. AND self-described independents.

[pnwmom]

68. link?

[vsrazdem]

69. Here you go.

https://morningconsult.com/2020/01/14/why-bernie-sanders-is-electable-too/

[pnwmom]

72. That's an online, self-selected, panel poll -- not a probability poll.

Polls like that over-select on highly motivated voters.

[vsrazdem]

73. Polling democractic primary voters.

The survey polled 17,096 Democratic primary voters — those who indicated they may vote in the Democratic primary or caucus in their state. That sample has a 1-point margin of error.

[pnwmom]

74. The large number doesn't change that. It's just a very large group of self-selected voters.

https://methods.sagepub.com/reference/encyclopedia-of-survey-research-methods/n526.xml

Self-selection bias is the problem that very often results when survey respondents are allowed to decide entirely for themselves whether or not they want to participate in a survey. To the extent that respondents' propensity for participating in the study is correlated with the substantive topic the researchers are trying to study, there will be self-selection bias in the resulting data. In most instances, self-selection will lead to biased data, as the respondents who choose to participate will not well represent the entire target population.

[Blue_true]

84. You wouldn't count a dollar for me.

If Senator Sanders wins our party nomination, I an enthusiastically 100% behind him. I believe in fully supporting the lesser of two evils at critical times, and November 2020 is a critical time for this country.

[Zolorp]

85. It doesn't matter to me who wins

I support them enthusiastically.

I do not believe I can convince anybody I know on Sanders, though. There's not a lot to work with there when it comes to my farmer neighbors.

[squirecam]

86. His extreme online supporters?

What about Turner. Sirota. Weaver. King. Moore. Sarandon. Etc.

It’s these people that has caused me to never support Bernie over any dem.

[Zolorp]

89. He's my absolute last choice.

Don't get me wrong, I will definitely support him and vote for him if he is nominated. It will just be very demoralizing because I'll never be able to convince anybody else to do the same.

And if he is the nominee, I doubt we'll be able to get rid of Moscow Mitch with Amy McGrath. I know that with Joe Biden or Amy Klobuchar at the top of the ticket there is a real chance of kicking that asshat to the curb.I am just working hard to get McGrath nominated now, but a Sanders ticket would be demoralizing for us in the hinterlands.

[vsrazdem]

2. I agree, some of his supporters I've seen on line can be outright rude. But there's not much a

candidate personally can do about what people post.

[highplainsdem]

9. Actually, since Sanders is held in such high regard by his noisiest supporters, he'd probably

be able to have a huge impact on their behavior and rhetoric.

[vsrazdem]

16. Sure, if you want to alienate voters, call them out on their behavior. Especially since probably

quite a few of them are not actually Democrats. That would be helpful.

[Thekaspervote]

38. Alienate voters?! Really...what do you think he did on stage following the debate?

Women everywhere are pissed the way he treated Warren!

[vsrazdem]

41. Please do not speak for women everywhere, I happen to be one and you don't speak for me.

[MrsCoffee]

57. I'm one too and I'm pissed. Right here next to you.

Women everywhere are pissed.

[Zolorp]

25. That's what Republicans asked of Trump regarding his NAzi supporters.

He never called out his Nazi supporters, though. He needed them.

[vsrazdem]

35. Please don't even use the word Nazi in a sentence referring to Bernie Sanders.

[Zolorp]

37. Where did I say "Bernie Sanders" in my post?

[vsrazdem]

45. "referring to Bernie Sanders"

[Zolorp]

49. I never referred to Sanders

[YOHABLO]

12. Same goes for Biden supporters. Rudeness can be spread all over.

[NurseJackie]

54. Biden supporters do not hate the Democratic party. Biden supporters do not...

Biden supporters do not hate the Democratic party. Biden supporters do not call Democrats "intellectually bankrupt". Biden supporters do not think that the Democratic party is "ideologically bankrupt". Biden supporters do not believe that Democrats are "feeble" and "corrupt". Biden supporters do not proclaim that the Democratic party is an "absolute failure". Neither Biden nor his supporters characterize the Democratic party as being "the party of the one-percent". Neither Biden nor his supporters accuse the Democratic party of being "the party of the elite."

None of Biden's supporters denigrate the Democratic party with accusations of being "do-nothings". Biden's supporters believe that racism is real and that economic considerations won't make racism go away. Biden's supporters do not smear the party by saying that "it focuses 'too-much' on Diversity"... and we readily admit that people who refuse to vote for someone BECAUSE of the color of his/her skin IS INDEED a racist (we don't defend or make excuses for racists).

All I'm trying to say is that there is "rudeness" when arguing and bickering among ourselves in an anonymous discussion forum and on Twitter, etc... and then there are the OUTRIGHT LIES and other things that certain candidates and individuals do and say publicly that denigrate and smear and divide and create distrust and suspicion... and which discourages voters from supporting the Democratic party.

Here's the bottom line: Lies and smears about Democrats and the Democratic party create negativity. Negativity generates apathy. Apathy discourages voter turnout. Low voter turnout gives Republicans a chance to steal the elections. What good purpose does that serve? Why would any forward-thinking individual purposely do and say things that harm the Democratic party and which benefit the GOP?

[Skya Rhen]

55. This - a million times, this!!!

[vsrazdem]

66. I couldn't agree more.

Negativity generates apathy. Apathy discourages voter turnout. Low voter turnout gives Republicans a chance to steal the elections. What good purpose does that serve? Why would any forward-thinking individual purposely do and say things that harm the Democratic party and which benefit the GOP?

[NurseJackie]

71. As a rule, I do not support any candidate who lies and smears the Democratic party...

You forgot this part: "Lies and smears about Democrats and the Democratic party create negativity."

As a rule, I do not and will not support any candidate who lies about and who smears and denigrates the Democratic party or Democrats in general. THAT is what creates negativity and apathy. Fact of the matter is, we need people to support the PARTY, not just a single candidate. The "cult of personality" is a dangerous trap to fall into and that kind of ego-trip is one that leads to a candidate's ultimate failure, no matter who he (or she) may be.

[squirecam]

87. You mean

Turner? Sirota? Weaver? Sarandon? Moore?

Because they have been doing that exact thing.....

[Cha]

80. I don't see any articles talking

about "Biden supporters". Got a link?

[Malmsy]

83. I know. No candidate can monitor social media at all times.

They can't be expected to take responsibility for all the trashing that goes on.

[squirecam]

88. What about

Weaver? Sirota? Turner? Moore? Sarandon?

Bernie can’t do anything at all?

[peggysue2]

3. LOL!!

What a rousing testament for a Sanders' presidency--the obnoxious people will calm down.

Very creative!



Unfortunately, not convincing.

[vsrazdem]

19. Kind of like the PUMAs were.

[peggysue2]

24. Yes, whataboutism is always a strong counter argument

Not.

[vsrazdem]

34. It seems to be used quite a bit around here.

[Zolorp]

26. PUMAs were an incredibly small number of supporters of Hillary in 2008

Ultimately, they had no measurable effect on the election whatsoever, which means they amounted to less than 1/1000th of the Hillary supporters.

But they made a good story for the media to sell advertising over.

[vsrazdem]

36. Well, the media loves a good dust up story.

[Cha]

81. Sorry, your attempt at distracting from the OP is NOT

working.

[Tarheel_Dem]

4. K&R

[Hassin Bin Sober]

5. .

[Zolorp]

11. Wow. That gif.

Wow.

Just...wow.

[OilemFirchen]

8. That, to coin a new phrase:

is ratfucking with faint praise.

[evertonfc]

21. Sanders isn't going to be the nominee

He will support Biden but many of his supporters won't.

[comradebillyboy]

78. Will he support Biden though?

I'm not entirely convinced.

[chillfactor]

27. I am definetly NOT a bernie supporter....

some of his supporters here on DU are so aggressive and annoying.....I finally put them on IGNORE. He cannot win the presidency and his attacks on TRUE Democrats is disgusting.

[RandySF]

28. It's harmonious compared to DU in 2016

[SergeStorms]

33. It's still early enough....

that they can go completely overboard. I'm getting so I don't trust Bernie or most of his supporters one iota. That's a shame for someone running as a "Democrat".

[Thekaspervote]

42. Key phrase "running as a democrat." It will be great when sanders goes home to VT

[Thekaspervote]

40. +1000

[vsrazdem]

43. That's priceless.

[David__77]

46. Something like that.

...

[BeyondGeography]

53. His supporters here are fine

The headwinds they face here are pretty strong. I admire a number of them. In general, they’re a friggin nightmare on social media however.

[David__77]

47. the author claims young people are more "obnoxious."

Eye of the beholder... such generalizations.

[Recursion]

48. I don't trust an important section of his supporters

I think the second he does something realistic (or the second they realize he voted for the 94 crime bill) they'll abandon him too.

[Hortensis]

50. Dumb. The obnoxious ones reflect Sanders and are a small minority.

(Never to be mistaken for those current followers who are not like The Real Bernie Sanders himself and will go on to demonstrate their values and good sense by voting for whichever liberal Democrat we nominate.)

[janterry]

51. I've stopped reading Vox

This article is not the reason - but there were a series of other articles that did not appear to me to stand up to scientific scrutiny.

As for obnoxious supporters. I've never met one, though I'm sure there are more than a few. It will not change how I plan to vote

[Demsrule86]

52. Trouble is Sanders won't win....it will be blowout. Vote for me or else...blackmail.

[MrsCoffee]

56. Yeah, fuck that noise.

[TwilightZone]

59. If he somehow managed to win, they'd turn on him as soon as he didn't deliver.

The first time a signature plan failed to get through Congress or Sanders had to compromise, his "supporters" would throw him under the bus. Purity is an impossible standard, and it would be unlikely to survive reality.

[redqueen]

60. This is helpful?

Biden's supporters and Bernie's supporters are two sides of the same coin.

I don't think it has any real effect on whether or not people support the candidates, but I think in the GE it can have an effect on enthusiasm and that could have negative consequences.

[Iggo]

64. As are supporters of every candidate.

Especially here at DU.

I just hope the shit-slinging doesn’t lose us the race before we even get to the gate.

This shit, as expected, has gotten stupid amounts of ugly.

Any way, fingers crossed and hoping for the best.

[Gothmog]

77. The supporters of other candidates did not boo John Lewis, Elijah Cummings or Stacy Abrams

[Blaukraut]

75. IOW, get bullied into supporting Sanders by his more cultish followers?

No, I'm not saying that all of Bernie's supporters are like that, but he is the candidate who most closely resembles Trump in terms of the sheer devotion of his followers.

[Gothmog]

76. I saw far too much bad conduct by sanders supproters at the national convention

I will support the nominee of the party but I really doubt that the nominee will be such a weak candidate such as sanders. There are too many real democrats who have good memories and who will not forgive or forget the conduct of sanders supporters

[Cha]

79. I think Iglegias is way Misguided &

I told him so.

[boomer_wv]

82. A lot of people

who would otherwise vote for another Democrat, would stay home if Sanders were the nominee. And they are people disproportionately in states we need to win.