An uncomfortable truth about "Angry Black Women" in politics

[StarfishSaver]

Link to tweet

Just a point of order: Kamala Harris couldn't have gone after anyone on that stage like Amy Klobuchar did w/o getting the "angry" stereotype all too often given to Black women who assert ourselves

[Lucky Luciano]

1. Didn't she go after Biden at the first debate?

I didn’t watch the debates. Only read about them later, so maybe the tone from Amy K was different?

[StarfishSaver]

4. She didn't "go after" Biden any more aggressively than Any "went after" Pete

That's the point. Assertive black women are seen as overly-aggressive, hostile, and angry, even when their tone is nothing of the kind.

If you go back and look at the video of the first debate, you'll see that Kamala was calm and soft-spoken - infact, she was much quieter and more laid back than Amy was the other night.

The "tone" is in the eye of the beholder - people read black women's tone differently than they read the same tone in white women or men.

[The Valley Below]

13. She did. She suggested that Joe Biden was a racist in the debate...

which was a bridge too far.

Harris needed to be held accountable for her words just like any other candidate. And she was.

It is false to lay the negative reactions to her attack to her mixed ethnic background. Nor to lay it off on "tone." Her words were reprehensible and she paid the price. That's justice.

[StarfishSaver]

16. She suggested no such thing

But your mischaracterization illustrates the point of my OP, so thank you.

[The Valley Below]

18. I beg to differ. I saw the debate with my own eyes.

Harris deserved the backlash her attack generated. It was uncalled for. The fault was hers alone.

[StarfishSaver]

21. Sure

And God forbid you even consider the possibility that anyone might be judging her differently because, although virtually every human engaged in implicit bias, it's absolutely unthinkable that could have been at play here.

[The Valley Below]

23. You are making an accusation that is untrue, quite ugly, and offensive.

Please retract.

[brush]

22. Faulty memory? She called out Biden for reminiscing fondly of working...

with segregationists who called him son and black men boy.

Your seemed to have forgotten that part. And she did him a favor as he learned not to keep repeating that story, which is why he's kept black support and his frontrunner status.

Some whites seem to remember things differently than the actual context of the event. It's called hearing and remembering what you want to.

[The Valley Below]

24. Nah. Joe Biden has overwhelming support in th black community because they

know exactly who he is, and have for a very long time.

Harris had no support for her false attack and her numbers plummeted directly as a result.

[brush]

25. You missed the point completely again.

Last edited Sat Dec 21, 2019, 02:44 PM - Edit history (1)

He would've lost much black support he had kept telling that story about "...they called me son and black men boy."

Wake up! Have you know knowledge of how insulting that is to African Americans?

And have you also not noticed he stopped repeating that story immediately. Harris did him a favor.

[The Valley Below]

26. The evidence of Joe Biden's long and enduring popularity

in the African American community speaks volumes to me.

I have zero concerns about his relationship with a core constitutionally that knows his character.

To call Sen. Harris's attacks on him a "favor" borders on gaslighting.

Her campaign crumbled as a direct result of this blunder. Deservedly so.

[brush]

27. You're consistent in missing points. You can't deny he stopped repeating the story...

though. Did he not?

[StarfishSaver]

30. "Missing the point" seems to be the point

[brush]

32. Yep, purposely.

[Andy823]

75. +100

[The Valley Below]

33. The so-called "point" isn't valid.

[StarfishSaver]

35. Only to certain people, particularly those to whom it applies

[The Valley Below]

47. This is slander.

[emmaverybo]

44. You are ignoring the fact that Biden was referencing how the segregationist Senator referred to

senate colleagues, not to his use of son vs. boy in the larger world. He called Edward Kennedy “boy.” “Boy” is not exclusively used as a racial epithet. The term “good old boys” refers to the kind of white men who refer to other white men as boy.

In a non-racial context, it can be used as a friendly term, just as the Irish use the word “lad” or, more belittling, to express hierarchy as when a boss calls his clerk “boy” or a father his son, boy. The senator was putting Edward Kennedy in his place, not racially, but rather, as being less than he, the senator, in a ranking sense. As a racial epithet it is far more extreme in meaning and intent.

Biden should have anticipated how his story would be heard. He is simply not politically stupid enough though to have been referring to how the segregationist senator referred to black, as opposed to white men and making a joke of it. Nonetheless, he was short-sighted not to foresee that that would be many people’s understanding.

[PunkinPi]

36. Maybe you should follow Joe Biden's lead and let it go already...

[The Valley Below]

39. Take note: I didn't start this thread.

Got it?

[PunkinPi]

40. No you didn't, you commented in it and so did I.

Got it?

[The Valley Below]

41. Right. So why the commentary?

I'm free to speak as much as you are.

[PunkinPi]

45. No one claimed otherwise.

I commented because Biden isn't holding a grudge about what happened at that debate, however it seems to be a recurring issue with you. Presumably you respect Biden, and if he is the nominee, he said he would consider Senator Harris as his VP pick. For the sake of that possible outcome, you may want to let it go.

[The Valley Below]

46. You are ascribing false attributions to me.

Kindly stop with this nonsense.

Not cool.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

64. So very true SS... the double standards are as obvious as they are absurd in the extreme!!

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Come join the progressive revolution!!

[Sloumeau]

2. I saw Kamala Harris go after Joe Biden in that first debate.

I never got the impression that Senator Kamala Harris was afraid of anyone--or anything--and I do not think she was afraid of stereotypes either. The single most common thing that I heard after the first debate was something to the effect of:

"Damn! Did you see Harris go after Biden!"

Kamala Harris is simply fearless. It is just one of the many reasons I'd like Joe Biden to pick her as his VP should he win the nomination.

[mcar]

7. What I heard - here and elsewhere

was "how dare she go after Biden?" "He'll never pick her as VP after that vicious attack." Etc.

Starfish Saver is correct.

[StarfishSaver]

9. And she was "angry" and "yelling" and "too aggressive," etc.

[mcar]

12. Yep

I will say, though, I've also seen a few posts here saying that Klobuchar's "meanness" turned them off.

[StarfishSaver]

15. True

Black women are judged more harshly than white women but women of any race are judged more critically than white men. A white man performing as Klobuchar did would be hailed as tough, passionate and unyielding.

[mcar]

19. You know it!

[Demsrule86]

56. No she wasn't ...it was worse...she called him a racist...and acted like it was of the moment when

she planned the entire busing thing...with picture set to go on Twitter and t-shirts for sale...it was not a good look. He helped her win her Senate seat...it was a backstabbing thing to do IMHO. And it wasn't true...and she is not for busing either.

[StarfishSaver]

57. Here we go again

Except we're not.

[Demsrule86]

81. She ran a bad campaign...and had she done better with AA voters in Carolina, she would still be in

the race. She did herself no good attacking Biden twice and she never addressed her time as DA and AG...this hurt her...I don't see racism here.

[mcar]

82. And we're off

[Andy823]

74. Yes I heard the same thing

and the comments here seemed to get worse over the days after, and more full of false accusations. She was not angry, and she never called him a "racist". Some people here have a problem with "anyone" going after their chosen candidate.

What I saw was Biden was not prepared for the debate, and didn't have a response.

[mcar]

83. That's right

I'm glad to see Biden has gotten stronger in the debates but he was woefully unprepared for that one.

[SMC22307]

3. Right-wingers constantly accuse Dems of being angry and full of hate...

not just black women. A middle-of-the-road family member has started saying the same things ever since he started listening to right-wing radio. 12 Angry Dems. Angry Dems. Haters. Hell, they just attacked 16-year-old Greta Thunberg for being angry and needing to chill.

The division (pitting Klobuchar v. Harris as en example) isn't 'woke' and needs to stop -- these are attacks on all of us on the left side of the dial.

[StarfishSaver]

5. And many left-wingers accuse black women of being angry

[SMC22307]

10. Such as?

Sanders is constantly accused of being angry and rude and waving his finger around when, interestingly, Pelosi does the same thing with her habit of pointing. IMPOTUS called her 'Nervous Nancy' and accused her of a meltdown when she schooled him in the White House.

[StarfishSaver]

14. Go back and read the comments here and elsewhere following the first debate

[SMC22307]

17. Anonymous posters on a message board? LOL

Sure.

Harris wasn't doing well in her home state, and that wasn't because Klobuchar is 'allowed' to get angry. Many voters viewed Harris as going too far in her personal attack against Biden during the first debate and they let her know it. She blew it with that. But who knows, maybe she'll end up on the ticket as VP.

[abqtommy]

6. I think that there's justifiable anger. If anybody's entitled to be angry it's black people and

other POC. That would explain why the "stereotype" is redundant to me. That's my truth and it's not uncomfortable for me.

[StarfishSaver]

8. True. But we're accused of being angry regardless how calm and quiet we are

[abqtommy]

11. I just said that there's justification! We all have to own our anger, no matter what the projections

Last edited Sat Dec 21, 2019, 04:43 PM - Edit history (1)

of accusers are. Of course we get to determine whether accusations are valid or not. If valid then we might have to modify our thinking. But I don't think that happens very often. Many books have been written using this topic so I'll stop now...

[WhiskeyGrinder]

20. K&R for the truth.

[OldRed2450]

28. Absolutely true.

Black women are hit with hate and racism more than any other group. That's a fact.

[spicysista]

29. Exactly.

The fragility demonstrated by folks after Kamala's exchange with Biden, further proved Ameshia's point. Even after Kamala explicitly said Biden is not a racist (during the exchange), many of our more fragile allies howled their disdain.
"How dare she?!?" "Who does she think she is!" " She has lost me, after this! "
The response to her debate performance was stunning to see.

[StarfishSaver]

31. Black people usually have to preface any discussion of race with a white person with

Last edited Sat Dec 21, 2019, 03:13 PM - Edit history (1)

"I am NOT calling you a racist ..."

But then when we do, we are accused of calling them a racist anyway because explicitly saying we are NOT calling someone a racist means we are calling them a racist. I reality we're being told "You can only talk about race in the time, place, language and tone that WE decide is appropriate."

That exchange and the aftermath are studies in white fragility, privilege and entitlement; the eggshells that black people - especially women - have to walk on daily; and the presumption that any black woman who says more than "thank you for giving me the opportunity to be here and for all you have sacrificed for me and mine" is angry and accusatory.

[spicysista]

34. It's all very tiring and all too true, StarfishSaver.

[Skya Rhen]

37. Harris attacked Biden - no one said she was angry. For a full month afterwards she was

the media’s darling and it was reflected in her surging to top tier. I remember all of this.

Other weaknesses in her campaign caused her to lose support.

She was never accused of being angry.

[StarfishSaver]

38. You surely know better than that

You were deeply involved in these discussions here at the time. I can't imagine you didn't see the number of people who called her angry, here and elsewhere.

Maybe you just forgot. But I haven't.

[Skya Rhen]

48. They, nor I, called her angry - because we knew that it was a pre-orchestrated performance. Some

called her calculating and mean-spirited but not angry. Anger typically comes from a place of sincerity - this was a rehearsed attack.

[tonedevil]

49. WOW...

just fucking wow.

[Skya Rhen]

50. Kamala's attack on Biden was months in the making (Politico)

She and her advisers assiduously plotted the attack — and how to capitalize on it afterward.

Kamala Harris’ campaign is spending the next three days trying to extend the best two hours of her political career.
Harris’ surprise cross-examination of frontrunner Joe Biden produced the third-biggest fundraising bonanza since her launch. The Democratic senator is working to capitalize ahead of a crucial second quarter fundraising deadline: She blanketed news shows with nearly a dozen TV appearances, and her digital team is pumping out clips and other reminders of her interrogating Biden, hoping that Democratic voters will envision her doing the same thing to Donald Trump.

“It’s a great springboard,” said Bakari Sellers, the former state lawmaker and top Harris surrogate in South Carolina, saying it would add rocket fuel to her end-of-quarter fundraising push. Sellers said he’s taken a just-you-wait approach with people who’ve questioned Harris’ stock. “Last night, everyone said ‘there it is right there.’ No one can describe what ‘it’ is. But now they know she has it.”


*******************************************************************************************

No organic anger there - just a perfectly executed performance.

Wow back at ya...

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/28/kamala-harris-joe-biden-debate-1390383

[StarfishSaver]

52. "Months in the making"

Sheer genius for her and her team to spend months preparing to attack Biden for praising segregationists and then patiently lying in wait ready to spring whenever he got around to actually doing it.

I forgot how ridiculous and over-the-top the reaction to this incident was at the time.

And yes, some people did accuse her of being out-of-control and angry. And some others accused her of being calculated and cunning - also apparently a bad trait for certain candidates to display.

Wow, indeed.

[Skya Rhen]

53. "Calculating and cunning" were frequently used - never, ever saw "angry". Search for the posts and

share the links where she is described as being "angry".

[tonedevil]

54. Heavens to Murgatroyd...

a political campaign planed what the candidate would say during a televised debate. I must say that is a shocking revelation. As the article you linked to points out about a week prior Biden gave her a wide opening by not only telling his folksy tale of working with the last of the Dixiecrats, but also screwing up the part where he is supposed to say he never called me Senator he called me son by substituting boy for Senator. Harris pointed out that she had benefited from being bussed I think her disagreement with Biden on that is sincere. For his part Biden hasn't trotted out the working with segregationists story since then.

[Skya Rhen]

59. I've wasted enough time talking about a past, non-successful candidate. I'm back to focusing on the

frontrunner.

[tonedevil]

60. At least you were able to relive...

your disdain toward Senator Harris for old times sake.

[Skya Rhen]

61. She failed to impress this black woman, and the majority of us. It's on her. Biden is succeeding

in that area.

[tonedevil]

62. OK /nt

[StarfishSaver]

67. You noticed that, too

The band got back together for an oldies reunion.

[ismnotwasm]

42. Thought I'd check in to see the number of people who downplay race and racial perceptions

In American politics. As usual, it’s depressingly what I expected.

[StarfishSaver]

43. Nothing to see here

How can we get over racism if you people keep talking about race?

[pbmus]

51. We all should be....

[Joe941]

55. I recall she did go after Biden in the first debate.

[StarfishSaver]

58. And people are still going batshish about it nearly 6 months later

Thereby illustrating, in real time, the very point of the OP that "going after" an opponent subjects certain candidates to vilification not directed at certain other candidates who do the same thing.

[DrToast]

63. Really? Cuz she went after Biden pretty hard and her polling doubled

But hey, don’t let facts get in the way.

[StarfishSaver]

65. And she was trashed for it. And, as you can see just in this thread, she's STILL

being vilified for "going after" Biden.

[DrToast]

66. No, she wasn't. It was a boost for her campaign.

And we know this because we have polling to see what happened.

[StarfishSaver]

68. She wasn't trashed for it?

Ok

[DrToast]

69. Let's see...

Should we evaluate the effects of political events through an unscientific analysis of random message board comments? Or should we just maybe consider scientific polling to see how well something was received?

[StarfishSaver]

70. I didn't realize the campaign ended the day after the debate

that Harris got nothing but cheers and accolades for "going after Biden" and that no one subsequently ever criticized her for it.

We all just imagined the criticism. We even imagined that people right here in this thread jumped on her for that incident.

Never mind.

[DrToast]

72. It's not that you imagined the criticism

It’s that your overstate its prominence and significance.

You can find a small minority of people to have an opinion on just about anything. It doesn’t mean it represents the general opinion of the party.

[emmaverybo]

71. She became a sensation overnight. MSNBC celebrated her by playing the confrontational scene

over and over, interviewing highly supportive guests, and giving short shrift to the one Biden campaign aide they gave a tiny slice of their airtime to. Yes, criticism set in when she said she had
planned her personalized challenge of Biden’s stance, but even then she continued to surge,

Certainly, Biden supporters, as would be expected, disliked her approach. Most Dems saw her as a real contender, however, the candidate who could beat Trump in debate, and roundly championed her for showing guts, brilliance, passion, and honesty. Here at DU, she was applauded for “giving it to him,” for proving she could take on an established, older man with some political stature and render him speechless, flustered.

Acclaim was much more the rule among liberals than was disapproval although with time, and her own revelation about rehearsal, more people voiced discomfort with her strategy.

Still, that debate moment launched her into a kind of celebrity on the national stage and drew more supporters to consider her a serious threat to Trump. Biden’s AA support took a hit, and it was thought that she would likely keep gaining AA endorsements and lead with the electorate.

What happened from there was not some retribution for bringing it to Biden so much as a combination of factors. As we have learned before, attention brings greater criticism while both the media and the public are fickle fingers, loving to cast down the very personalities they have elevated.

[DrToast]

73. Exactly.

[Skya Rhen]

77. You recounted the actual events accurately, revision-free. Thanks for this!

[StarfishSaver]

80. Funny - you criticized her relentlessly for days after that debate because she went after Biden

And now you're pretending that it was no big deal to you or anyone else at the time and your problem with her was that she failed to "impress" you.

You're having trouble keeping your story straight

[emmaverybo]

85. Commented and self-deleted because mistakenly believed your claim addressed to me. But I

must say I certainly did criticize her severely at the time, as did some other Biden supporters, but we were not in the majority here or in the liberal and progressive community at large. Also, perceptions change over time, and are balanced by a wider consideration of a candidate’s many other behaviors. In general, won’t our reactions to debates be somewhat clouded by our own candidate preference at the time, and become altered as we more holistically view conduct over time?

I can’t speak for Skya of course, but I think you could have as easily called me out as pretending and telling a story, neither of which have I witnessed in most DUer’s comments, never in any comments I have read that Skya has made, ever.

[Hav]

76. Did I miss something?

I only saw the debate starting with Warren's zinger about being the youngest female President.
The only discussion I remember where Klobuchar was involved was with Pete about experience and that was very mild, especially in comparison to the Warren-Pete exchange. Klobuchar wasn't angry, she repeatedly made her point while Pete seemed to avoid her arguments to a degree.

[guillaumeb]

78. Recommended.

Not to take away from the obvious point, but President Obama was also criticized when he showed anger.

[MaryMagdaline]

79. It's starts with black girls getting detention, expulsion more than white girls

White girls are seen as more innocent. Goes straight into adulthood.