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Sun Sep 8, 2019, 02:36 PM

 

BBC: Bernie Sanders in climate change 'population control' uproar

The question was about: "Empowering women and educating everyone on the need to curb population growth seems a reasonable campaign to enact."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49601678

Mr Sanders, who is running for the Democratic presidential nomination to face President Donald Trump in the November 2020 election, replied: "Well, Martha, the answer is yes.

"The answer has everything to do with the fact that women in the United States of America, by the way, have a right to control their own bodies, and make reproductive decisions.

"The Mexico City Agreement which denies American aid to those organisations around the world that allow women to have abortions or even get involved in birth control to me is totally absurd.

"So I think, especially in poor countries around the world where women do not necessarily want to have large numbers of babies, and where they can have the opportunity through birth control to control the number of kids they have, is something I very, very strongly support."
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Reply BBC: Bernie Sanders in climate change 'population control' uproar (Original post)
TomCADem Sep 2019 OP
George II Sep 2019 #1
NurseJackie Sep 2019 #3
KPN Sep 2019 #5
Lordquinton Sep 2019 #30
mr_lebowski Sep 2019 #32
Jirel Sep 2019 #38
mr_lebowski Sep 2019 #39
spooky3 Sep 2019 #2
KPN Sep 2019 #4
billpolonsky Sep 2019 #12
corbettkroehler Sep 2019 #61
wasupaloopa Sep 2019 #6
NYMinute Sep 2019 #11
Buzz cook Sep 2019 #13
TomCADem Sep 2019 #22
sheshe2 Sep 2019 #26
NYMinute Sep 2019 #28
sheshe2 Sep 2019 #29
wasupaloopa Sep 2019 #15
mr_lebowski Sep 2019 #34
BlueMississippi Sep 2019 #7
GeorgeGist Sep 2019 #8
NYMinute Sep 2019 #10
KPN Sep 2019 #14
NYMinute Sep 2019 #16
KPN Sep 2019 #19
Blue_true Sep 2019 #24
NYMinute Sep 2019 #27
betsuni Sep 2019 #31
mr_lebowski Sep 2019 #35
Blue_true Sep 2019 #59
dalton99a Sep 2019 #49
Pantagruel Sep 2019 #52
The Mouth Sep 2019 #62
Blue_true Sep 2019 #23
NYMinute Sep 2019 #9
msongs Sep 2019 #17
WhiskeyGrinder Sep 2019 #18
KPN Sep 2019 #20
WhiskeyGrinder Sep 2019 #21
Jirel Sep 2019 #41
WhiskeyGrinder Sep 2019 #46
Autumn Sep 2019 #50
KPN Sep 2019 #53
Autumn Sep 2019 #54
Autumn Sep 2019 #55
JI7 Sep 2019 #25
Farmer-Rick Sep 2019 #33
Lordquinton Sep 2019 #36
Hekate Sep 2019 #37
The Mouth Sep 2019 #63
Hekate Sep 2019 #65
The Mouth Sep 2019 #66
HelpImSurrounded Sep 2019 #40
Hekate Sep 2019 #42
HelpImSurrounded Sep 2019 #60
Gothmog Sep 2019 #43
Autumn Sep 2019 #44
Hassin Bin Sober Sep 2019 #45
LanternWaste Sep 2019 #47
Autumn Sep 2019 #48
jcgoldie Sep 2019 #51
KPN Sep 2019 #56
The Mouth Sep 2019 #64
Joe941 Sep 2019 #57
Politicub Sep 2019 #58

Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 02:37 PM

1. This is disqualifying.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to George II (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 02:41 PM

3. It's just one thing after another...

 

... after another.

Lord.

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Response to George II (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 02:51 PM

5. ....

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to George II (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 11:54 PM

30. You're anti-abortion?

 

Curious...
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Response to George II (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 11:58 PM

32. Totally disagree ... this is one the greatest things I've ever seen Bernie take up

 

in fact.

He's 100% right.
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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #32)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 12:45 AM

38. Yep.

 

Except that he should’ve qualified that the US and the rest of the industrialized world, with each person there having the largest carbon footprint, should be the first to further lower our population curve.
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Response to Jirel (Reply #38)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 12:53 AM

39. That would've been accurate, but not IMHO necessary to avoid consternation

 

re: the overall message.

Only someone who REALLY wants to hate on Bernie would perceive what he was saying as 'blaming poor people for climate change' ... or think is some eugenics plan ffs.

Fact of the matter is, people in poorer countries are going to be suffering worse from climate change than those in developed countries regardless of the fact that it's much less 'their fault'.

In fact, it's to their OWN advantage to begin to work towards ZPG otherwise there's just going to be more people suffering in such places due to ACC.

But yeah, the WHOLE WORLD should start telling their populations that having >2 kids is an immoral act, and that having 0-1 children is the most socially desirable, at least until such time as the world population is reduced over upcoming decades to about 1/2 of what it is now, at most.
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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 02:37 PM

2. The conservative "uproar" is ridiculous. Nt

 

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 02:50 PM

4. So you are objecting to the availability of birth control and choice worldwide?

 

What's your point here? That you agree with ultra-conservatives?

Have you talked with many millenials about the merits of "population control"?

Gotta wonder, do you have similar views toward -- oh, I don't know -- the merit of a plant-based diet? Or is this just another typical swipe at Senator Sanders because butt-hurt?
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Response to KPN (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 03:52 PM

12. I agree.

 



Last time It checked it was 2019
Do you actually believe that Bernie Sanders is for eugenics?
Or does giving women the choice to control their own bodies give you the vapors?

Quack, quack quack...




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Response to billpolonsky (Reply #12)

Tue Sep 10, 2019, 05:54 PM

61. Bingo! Another Round Of Bernie Bashing In Pure Form! (n/t)

 

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 02:59 PM

6. Well I agree with Bernie for a change. Birth control should be available to all women who want them.

 

This has nothing to do with the race of women.
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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 03:35 PM

11. That is a separate issue -- he is wrapping it in climate change

 

and thus blaming the poor people for climate change
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Response to NYMinute (Reply #11)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 03:57 PM

13. So when he says women in America

 

Should have access to abortion and birth control, what secret anti-humanist message is he sending?
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Response to Buzz cook (Reply #13)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 10:57 PM

22. Bernie's comment seems to take reproductive rights in America for granted

 

Bernie did not say "women in America should have access to abortion and birth control." Bernie actually said:

"The answer has everything to do with the fact that women in the United States of America, by the way, have a right to control their own bodies, and make reproductive decisions."


Maybe he has a lot more faith in the current composition of the Supreme Court, but I think we will need to fight for the reproductive rights of women in America, as well as women in poor countries.

Also, tying reproductive rights to poor people? That is a horrible gaffe given the history in the United States regarding forced sterilization:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sterilization-united-states_n_568f35f2e4b0c8beacf68713

That Time The United States Sterilized 60,000 Of Its Citizens

Not too long ago, more than 60,000 people were sterilized in the United States based on eugenic laws. Most of these operations were performed before the 1960s in institutions for the so-called “mentally ill” or “mentally deficient.” In the early 20th century across the country, medical superintendents, legislators, and social reformers affiliated with an emerging eugenics movement joined forces to put sterilization laws on the books. Such legislation was motivated by crude theories of human heredity that posited the wholesale inheritance of traits associated with a panoply of feared conditions such as criminality, feeblemindedness, and sexual deviance. Many sterilization advocates viewed reproductive surgery as a necessary public health intervention that would protect society from deleterious genes and the social and economic costs of managing “degenerate stock.” From today’s vantage point, compulsory sterilization looks patently like reproductive coercion and unethical medical practice.

At the time, however, sterilization both was countenanced by the U.S. Supreme Court (in the 1927 Buck v. Bell case) and supported by many scientists, reformers, and lawmakers as one prong of a larger strategy to improve society by encouraging the reproduction of the “fit” and restricting the procreation of the “unfit.” In total, 32 U.S. states passed sterilization laws between 1907 and 1937, and surgeries reached their highest numbers in the late 1930s and early 1940s. Beginning in the 1970s, state legislatures began to repeal these laws, finding them antiquated and discriminatory, particularly towards people with disabilities.


This is not ancient history either. China itself imposed a strict "one child" policy. A U.S. Presidential candidate blaming poor people in developing nations for climate impacts? I can understand if Trump made that statement.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/8/13/20799161/one-child-nation-interview-nanfu-wang

How filmmaker Nanfu Wang exposed the global repercussions of China’s “one child” policy

Documentarian Nanfu Wang grew up in rural China under the country’s “one child” policy, which lasted from 1979 to 2015. Her own parents had two children, since the law made an exception for families living in rural areas, as long as the children were at least five years apart — but not until after her mother narrowly escaped involuntary sterilization. Many other women were not so lucky. The policy’s mental, physical, and emotional toll on the country, especially its women, was tremendous.

To enforce such an invasive policy on a population as large as China’s required more than just strict policing — it required self-policing, especially in rural areas, far away from more densely populated urban centers. So, as One Child Nation shows, the Chinese government blanketed the country with propaganda intended to convince citizens to keep their family sizes within the allowed limit, and to report on their neighbors if they suspected anyone wasn’t following the rules. Along with forced abortions and sterilizations, the propaganda effort ensured that most of the population would abide by the policy, seeing it as a necessary and good measure for the health of their families and their future.

One Child Nation is Wang’s personal and journalistic exploration of the ramifications of the One Child era, both in China and around the world. She speaks with a midwife in China who had to perform abortions on thousands of women; an artist who depicts the grisly results of the policy; and a couple in the US who help adopted Chinese children try to reunite with their biological families, many of whom sold children to orphanages for adoption abroad because they already had a child. It is a harrowing film that confronts and confounds Western ideas about agency, choice, reproduction, and bodily autonomy.


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primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #22)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 11:43 PM

26. Bernie is wrong.

 



"The answer has everything to do with the fact that women in the United States of America, by the way, have a right to control their own bodies, and make reproductive decisions."


A “Republicans on Rape” graphic widely circulated online since 2014 collects various comments about that crime supposedly made by GOP politicians in recent years:

Snopes. 100% true



https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/personal-foul/

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #26)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 11:48 PM

28. +1000 nt

 

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primary today, I would vote for:
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Response to NYMinute (Reply #28)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 11:53 PM

29. No we do not!

 

I thank you, NYMinute.
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Response to NYMinute (Reply #11)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 04:44 PM

15. No that is a misguided interpretation. He never said anything like that. The story writer said it.

 

It was in a climate change debate but it was never said to be a climate change issue. And even if it was there is nothing wrong with it if you believe man is causing climate change. Less people less effect on climate
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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #15)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 12:03 AM

34. Exactly. Reducing population growth is literally the ONLY THING that will even begin

 

to help fight climate change significantly at this point in time.

The entire leadership of the world should be telling people to stop having >2 children from now on, period. Rich, poor, black, white, brown I don't give a shit who you are.

We need negative world population growth and we need it YESTERDAY. Period.

I ain't p-footing around this subject because some want to whinge about nonsense like 'eugenics' and 'blaming the poor for climate change'

I'm way past caring about maintaining 100% political correctness on this subject, basically.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 03:09 PM

7. This is utterly ridiculous and borderline ignorant

 

Poor people in third world have a far smaller carbon footprint.

They don't own motorized vehicles. They use very little electricity. They usually bathe in cold water. They wash pots and pans and do their laundry by hand in cold water.

The only carbon emissions from most of them come from cooking.
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Response to BlueMississippi (Reply #7)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 03:28 PM

8. Some people might think opposing voluntary birth control ...

 

is borderline ignorant.
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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #8)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 03:34 PM

10. That is an entirely separate issue

 

Conflating it with climate change is irresponsible.

There are many factors in why poor people have more babies.

1. They have no other entertainment outlet than sex.
2. They have a very high infant and child mortality rate so parents play odds knowing a few would die.

Blaming them for climate change instead of blaming the large SUV-driving, plastic consuming, appliance using, disposable-everything Western culture is utterly ignorant.

Some 4500 people in third world have the same carbon footprint as that of one average family in the US.
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Response to NYMinute (Reply #10)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 04:33 PM

14. Baloney. Human population is the number one driver

 

of climate change. Missing this fact is like missing the forest for the trees.
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Response to KPN (Reply #14)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 06:22 PM

16. Not all humans have the same carbon footprint

 

and thus do not equally contribute to global warming.

Western countries with their SUVs, high automobile and electricity usage contribute far more than poor people of color in Africa, Asia and Latin America.
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Response to NYMinute (Reply #16)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 10:25 PM

19. Who said anything about them being the same - regardless of the

 

speciousness of that argument? Bernie was asked a question that related to US aid in developing nations and answered it directly, honestly, and — in my opinion — correctly. But nothing new there. Sanders is a seemingly hated target for certain individuals here.
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Response to KPN (Reply #19)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 11:10 PM

24. The carbon footprint of each person DOES MATTER.

 

Bernie was asked about population control in relation to climate change and after a roundabout answer, he put the blame on poor countries. It DOES MATTER that it takes more than 3000 people in the developing world to produce the same carbon footprint as one four person family in the USA, using the ratio, there would need to be 990 TRILLION people in the developing world to have the same carbon footprint of 330 million Americans. It does matter and Senator Sanders' answer was completely off base as far as his conclusion is concerned.
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Response to Blue_true (Reply #24)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 11:47 PM

27. +1000 nt

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
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Response to Blue_true (Reply #24)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 11:57 PM

31. +2000

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
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Response to Blue_true (Reply #24)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 12:15 AM

35. IMHO, you're wrong, and here's why ...

 

Because you know what damn near everyone living in the undeveloped world wants more than probably just about anything?

To live in a more developed country. Whether it's via developing their own, or physically moving to one. The more PEOPLE there are period? The more people statistically want to live in 'developed' countries. It's that simple.

The carbon footprint of the billion in China and the billion in India are presently FAR greater per person than they were even just 20 years ago, which isn't even close to the life expectancy of a person.

There's nothing whatsoever 'wrong' about saying that empowering women worldwide with access to education and birth control is an important tool in fighting climate change.

I believe it's 100% factually (not to mention morally) correct to point this out, and to strive for such empowerment, your 'statistics' notwithstanding.

His point is NOT about 'blame'.
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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #35)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 06:18 PM

59. The vast majority of people in poor countries do not immigrate.

 

They stay put in their villages and small towns. So claiming transposition of populations (developed countries getting swarmed by immigrating refugees) is wrong.

What will likely happen once climate change eliminates the world's ability to feed everyone is that hundreds of millions, even billions of people will likely simply stay in their homes and starve to death. The question is whether we in a developed nation stop finger-pointing and accept that we are far more involved in bringing about climate catastrophe than people in poor countries are.
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Response to NYMinute (Reply #16)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 10:04 AM

49. Fifteen countries are responsible for more than two thirds of global CO2 emissions

 




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Response to dalton99a (Reply #49)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 11:27 AM

52. More relevant numbers?

 

Sorry the format failed



1992 2000 2006 Emissions per capita % change since 1996



China 2475.26 2966.52 6017.69 4.58 105%
United States 5079.53 5860.38 5902.75 19.78 7%
Russia 2056.55 1582.37 1704.36 12 5%
India 664.96 1012.34 1293.17 1.16 55%
Japan 1078.48 1203.71 1246.76 9.78 10%
Germany 896.37 856.92 857.6 10.4 -4%
Canada 485.09 565.22 614.33 18.81 18%
United Kingdom 579.82 561.23 585.71 9.66 -1%
South Korea 294.53 445.81 514.53 10.53 27%
Iran 234.79 320.69 471.48 7.25 79%
Italy 415.62 448.43 468.19 8.05 10%
South Africa 323.55 391.67 443.58 10.04 24%
Mexico 313.55 383.44 435.6 4.05 31%
Saudi Arabia 235.46 290.54 424.08 15.7 70%
France 382.89 402.27 417.75 6.6 7%
Australia 271.58 359.8 417.06 20.58 37%
Brazil 237.8 344.91 377.24 2.01 23%
Spain 254.21 326.92 372.62 9.22 52%
Ukraine 535.94 326.83 328.72 7.05 -10%
Poland 330.33 295 303.42 7.87 -13%
Taiwan 132.27 252.15 300.38 13.19 52%
Indonesia 173.45 273.93 280.36 1.21 18%
Netherlands 213.2 251.73 260.45 15.79 14%
Thailand 100.72 161.86 245.04 3.79 44%
Turkey 138.1 202.38 235.7 3.35 39%
Kazakhstan 265.09 143.45 213.5 14.02 50%
Malaysia 72.93 112.14 163.53 6.7 61%
Argentina 109.94 138.42 162.19 4.06 25%
Venezuela 111.72 134.46 151.97 5.93 14%
Egypt 93.83 119.32 151.62 1.92 40%
United Arab Emirates 102.05 115.72 149.52 35.05 44%
Belgium 124.8 148.57 147.58 14.22 3%
Singapore 68.11 107.64 141.1 31.41 43%
Pakistan 70.27 109.11 125.59 0.78 32%
Uzbekistan 95.95 106.35 120.84 4.43 17%
Czech Republic - - 113.45 116.3 11.36 -13%
Greece 79.5 101.27 107.07 10.02 24%
Nigeria 94.09 80.75 101.07 0.77 -1%
Iraq 57.69 73.58 98.95 3.69 29%
Romania 129.94 93.33 98.64 4.42 -22%
Algeria 82.08 83.65 93.16 2.83 10%
Vietnam 18.46 48.49 91.62 1.09 132%
Hong Kong 45.4 55.93 84.86 12.23 74%
North Korea 106.71 70.17 77.61 3.36 7%
Austria 57.06 64.74 76.39 9.32 17%
Kuwait 23.51 59.5 74.79 30.92 52%
Philippines 46.16 71.17 72.39 0.81 20%
Israel 41.99 60.68 67.33 9.8 35%
Belarus 91.63 60.07 65.2 6.68 8%
Chile 31.63 55.28 64.8 4.01 42%
Colombia 53.82 57.83 62.04 1.42 9%
Portugal 47.73 63.76 61.71 5.82 27%
Denmark 61.63 54.72 59.13 10.85 -19%
Hungary 62.74 55.86 58.65 5.88 -1%
Finland 49.63 50.32 58.31 11.15 9%
Sweden 59.08 60.78 57.37 6.36 -15%
Qatar 25.59 34.7 54.17 61.19 75%
Libya 36.56 41.89 53.51 9.07 28%
Former Serbia and Montenegro 45.32 42.96 52.15 4.81 5%
Syria 35.38 50.99 51.08 2.71 21%
Turkmenistan 20.47 23.94 50.28 10.03 176%
Bulgaria 57.64 49.11 48.94 6.63 -9%
Trinidad and Tobago 17.4 27.51 47.23 44.32 95%
Ireland 27.59 40.75 46.86 11.54 47%
Switzerland 45.77 45.45 45.56 6.06 1%
Norway 35.7 41.28 45.15 9.79 13%
Bangladesh 16.51 29.38 42.74 0.29 88%
Puerto Rico 23.35 27.72 41.43 10.55 71%
Azerbaijan 60.14 43.76 39.82 4.94 2%
New Zealand 31.27 35.13 38.36 9.38 18%
Slovakia - - 36.56 38.15 7.01 -13%
Oman 13.53 21.79 34.73 11.19 138%
Morocco 22.54 31.25 34.53 1.04 26%
Peru 20.15 26.97 29.93 1.05 16%
Cuba 28.88 32.86 28.64 2.52 -5%
Bahrain 13.57 20.26 26.85 38.44 69%
Ecuador 18.39 20.08 25.46 1.88 29%
Croatia 16.6 20.13 21.43 4.77 23%
Angola 7.5 13.03 21.19 1.77 74%
Tunisia 12.81 19.67 20.98 2.06 36%
Jordan 11.2 15.63 19.89 3.37 40%
Estonia 25.75 16.26 18.61 14.06 -5%
Yemen 12.23 13.18 18.08 0.84 66%
Slovenia 12.7 15.72 17.62 8.77 5%
Dominican Republic 10.35 15.8 17.42 1.89 50%
Bosnia and Herzegovina 18.91 14.13 17.41 3.87 284%
Lithuania 23.28 13.28 15.73 4.39 -1%
Panama 12.24 12.94 14.43 4.52 16%
Lebanon 8.16 16.46 14.32 3.69 8%
Burma 4.62 9.01 12.87 0.27 106%
Virgin Islands, U.S. 8.35 9.85 12.85 118.3 51%
Sri Lanka 5.63 11.33 12.54 0.61 56%
Luxembourg 11.29 9.03 12.47 26.28 37%
Bolivia 6.24 9.26 12.41 1.38 70%
Sudan 5.17 6.51 12.26 0.32 209%
Jamaica 8.52 10.83 12.03 4.36 19%
Guatemala 4.36 9.07 11.23 0.9 78%
Netherlands Antilles 9.55 11.62 10.9 49.13 -4%
Kenya 6.57 8.7 10.79 0.3 44%
Armenia 11.14 8.61 10.34 3.48 25%
Zimbabwe 16.71 13.56 10.33 0.84 -31%
Brunei 3.65 3.79 9.89 26.89 185%
Cyprus 6.04 7.53 8.91 11.37 32%
Latvia 12.77 7.35 8.74 3.84 -11%
Mongolia 9.92 6.69 8.45 2.91 -3%
Moldova 20.65 5.89 7.53 1.74 -20%
Honduras 2.74 4.59 7.46 1.02 92%
Tajikistan 7.97 5.95 7.36 1.06 56%
Ghana 3.41 5.32 7.29 0.32 78%
Macedonia 9.3 8.41 7.17 3.5 -27%
Cameroon 3.59 6.83 7.16 0.41 6%
Uruguay 4.52 6.52 6.36 1.85 28%
Cote d'Ivoire (IvoryCoast) 3.86 7.36 6.3 0.36 10%
El Salvador 3.22 5.51 6.28 0.92 43%
Costa Rica 3.64 5.01 5.76 1.41 29%
Senegal 2.92 4.43 5.73 0.47 46%
Congo -Brazzaville 0.85 3.01 5.53 1.49 79%
Ethiopia 3.64 3.46 5.13 0.07 199%
Bahamas, The 2.22 3.5 5 16.48 40%
Mozambique 1.19 1.28 4.98 0.24 365%
Kyrgyzstan 14.07 7.23 4.95 0.95 -30%
Equatorial Guinea 0.12 2.05 4.88 8.37 214%
Albania 4.17 3.26 4.69 1.31 140%
Tanzania 2.58 2.73 4.68 0.12 87%
Georgia 15.51 4.63 4.66 1 -18%
Papua New Guinea 2.58 2.6 4.66 0.82 74%
Nicaragua 2.35 3.7 4.57 0.82 56%
Gibraltar 3.09 7.3 4.47 160.22 38%
Gabon 6.06 5.07 4.34 3.04 -22%
Botswana 3.23 4.41 4.27 2.39 38%
Mauritius 2.14 3.5 4.04 3.22 67%
Paraguay 2.33 3.56 3.76 0.58 39%
Iceland 2.32 3.18 3.44 11.5 25%
Malta 2.38 2.91 3.11 7.78 19%
Mauritania 3.31 3.24 3.03 0.95 -13%
Nepal 1.11 3.11 3 0.11 80%
Reunion 1.4 2.51 2.77 NA 48%
Namibia 1.12 1.81 2.7 1.32 100%
Benin 0.77 1.65 2.65 0.34 156%
New Caledonia 1.78 2.01 2.6 11.85 42%
Madagascar 1.07 1.81 2.59 0.14 102%
Zambia 2.99 1.9 2.57 0.23 17%
Togo 0.72 1.4 2.51 0.45 298%
Democratic Republic of the Congo 4.35 2.71 2.51 0.04 -35%
Martinique 1.47 2.06 2.39 NA 18%
Macau 1.13 1.58 2.28 5.02 54%
Guadeloupe 1.39 1.81 2.11 NA 24%
Suriname 1.44 1.61 2.01 4.31 34%
Djibouti 1.78 1.85 2 4.12 10%
Guam 2.51 2.87 1.89 11.06 -41%
Haiti 0.88 1.52 1.79 0.21 61%
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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #8)

Tue Sep 10, 2019, 06:04 PM

62. Nothing borderline about it

 

Opposing voluntary birth control for EVERY woman who wants it, in any way, makes one a raving nutcase fascist regardless of what they may say.

Either women *ALL* women *EVERYWHERE* have the right to control their bodies or they don't. And people who think they don't are asshole incels who should be ignored, shunned and ostracized, regardless of any other views they may have.
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Response to BlueMississippi (Reply #7)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 11:00 PM

23. Very good observations. nt

 

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 03:29 PM

9. Disqualifying indeed nt

 

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 07:07 PM

17. pregnancy prevention is a better term, wonder why bernie chooses not to use it nt

 

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 07:24 PM

18. I'm surprised a good "democratic socialist" like Bernie didn't come back with the fact that

 

inequitable distribution of goods and services combined with rampant profit-chasing is much more an issue WRT climate change than overpopulation. Overpopulation is an alarmist scare tactic that gives ecofascists a chance to exercise their white supremacist tactics under "environmentalist" guises and makes candidates who gloss over intersectional oppressions around race and gender say things like they're in favor of population control.
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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #18)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 10:29 PM

20. Oh brother .... really? That's quite an extrapolation

 

there.
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Response to KPN (Reply #20)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 10:36 PM

21. Humans are causing overly rapid climate change. "Overpopulation" is not.

 

All people having access to the birth control they desire, free of politics or cost, is important. "Population control" is not.
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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #21)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 01:06 AM

41. Except that yes, it is.

 

We are overpopulated, period, and growing rapidly. We are overtaxing the planet’s resources, period. We can not create water where we have too many people needing it. We can not infinitely maintain fertile soil exhausted by too much farming. We can not replace the rainforest that is being burned down as we speak because a growing population wants more farmland. We can not turn desert back into blooming land for people displaced by climate change. We can not truly clean up the highly polluted or irradiated zones that we create out of stupid desperation to meet our growing population’s energy and material needs.

Yes. We need to decrease population, and fast.
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Response to Jirel (Reply #41)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 09:00 AM

46. There are plenty of radical solutions to those problems that don't require controlling a person's

 

decision to reproduce or not.
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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #21)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 10:19 AM

50. See, the problem some people have is Bernie never mentioned "Population control" nor did he

 

mention "Overpopulation". He answered her question about "Empowering women and educating everyone on the need to curb population growth". Women need access to birth control and abortion. Climate change is creating global food insecurity. That will impact women and their children in third world countries first.
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Response to Autumn (Reply #50)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 12:22 PM

53. Exactly. Thank you.

 

Good to know there are some red here who are objective on Sanders. I’m not supporting him at this point — unlike in 2015 — but not because he is wrong on his views. Some here take issue with anything he says it seems. Their views of him and what he says are clouded and without focus at best.
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Response to KPN (Reply #53)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 12:46 PM

54. What Bernie actually said doesn't fit their narrative, so they will find anything to twist like

 

what is being done with his truthful and logical answer to the question the woman asked. Women and their children in poor countries will be the hardest hit with global food insecurity caused by climate change. That's a fact. And our government has decided not to fund the worldwide organizations that help those women with access to birth control and abortion if they want it. They can't argue safely here against birth control and abortion so lying and twisting what he said is the next best thing. I have the deepest respect for Bernie and nothing would make me happier than him winning the presidency but like you, I have my reasons for not supporting him at this time.
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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #21)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 12:56 PM

55. AND that is exactly what Bernie said. He said NOTHING about "Population control" and you ignore

 

that little fact to push a false narrative.

"The answer has everything to do with the fact that women in the United States of America, by the way, have a right to control their own bodies, and make reproductive decisions.

"The Mexico City Agreement which denies American aid to those organizations around the world that allow women to have abortions or even get involved in birth control to me is totally absurd.

"So I think, especially in poor countries around the world where women do not necessarily want to have large numbers of babies, and where they can have the opportunity through birth control to control the number of kids they have, is something I very, very strongly support.
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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #18)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 11:22 PM

25. the biggest is women's rights and equality. you don't need to focus on population itself

 

but rather it happens on it's own once women are given more rights and opportunities. fairness and equality for women.

and as the poster above said, the poor people who tend to have large number of kids are people who aren't doing much to affect climate change.



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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 11:59 PM

33. I agree with the statements Bernie makes in the post

 

There is nothing wrong with what Bernie says in the post above.



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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #33)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 12:34 AM

36. Exactily this

 

It seems like most of the responses haven't looked into the issue past Bernie saying something in favor of it, so they have to justify being against it.
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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 12:36 AM

37. I find myself agreeing with the exerpts from what Bernie said. Mostly. He displays ignorance about

 

Last edited Mon Sep 9, 2019, 01:40 AM - Edit history (1)

...what is going on in America right now -- and what has been building for over 30 years.

Access to the full range of women's necessary health care has been broken in the US. As before the passage of Roe vs Wade, it is now limited to those who can afford it and who can afford to travel to obtain it.

In addition, for a long time there was something called "the Global Gag Order," which withheld funding from any overseas health organization that so much as mentioned the word abortion or referred women to agencies that would provide it. That included war zones where many women were and are raped as a weapon of war.

Now the Global Gag Order has come home to America -- the GOP is in process of enforcing it here.

So, Senator Sanders has not been paying attention to what a lot of men think is just a "women's issue." He's playing catch-up. Big surprise.

Aside from that, I don't quite understand the frothing outrage here over what he said. Or at least the parts quoted here in more than one thread. He did not say that "brown and black" people need to practice birth control, nor did he even hint at eugenics. He did not say that an i dividual who is poor -- of any color, in any country -- has a bigger carbon footprint than the average American, just that the grand total of population is a problem for the Earth. I agree with that. It is a problem.

Bernie said that "poor people" need to have access to family planning services. Well duh. They don't currently, and they do need it. Also he referred to "over half the population" needing such services -- well, that would comprise all women, seeing as how we are over half the numerical population in every country (with the exception of India and China, where a generation of girls failed to be born at all). Again duh. Bernie is saying all women need these services, regardless, and we do.

I'm going by what was quoted here, mind you, and my response is as a feminist and lifelong supporter of Planned Parenthood.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #37)

Tue Sep 10, 2019, 06:12 PM

63. Please help me understand something

 


You say that "So, Senator Sanders has not been paying attention to what a lot of men think is just a "women's issue." He's playing catch-up."

I may be wrong - I often am- but my understanding is that Bernie took a stand on this issue years ago:
https://rewire.news/article/2016/02/11/sanders-takes-stand-overturning-hyde-helms-amendments/

Not a Bernie supporter, but it seems to me that he has been at least paying lip service to this for quite awhile.
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Response to The Mouth (Reply #63)

Tue Sep 10, 2019, 06:39 PM

65. Well I am glad to hear that, at least. The Hyde Amendment was a compromise from back in the day

 

...when we though there was such a thing to be had with pro-lifers. It made its way onto the ACA for the same reason: the government has never paid for abortions, despite what anti-choicers would have you believe.

Hyde has now outlived whatever utility it ever had.

I got the impression from the OPs here that Sanders thinks all women in this country have easy access to family planning services including abortion, which remains legal. Hence his comments about poor countries. However, there has been a decades-long effort to make it unobtainable in the US -- still legal, but unobtainable. In the more extremw states, they treat abortion as if it were already illegal again. Harassment at clinics has been common all along, stalking of clinic staff takes place, and several doctors have bewn assassinated. Then there are the laws: heartbeat, personhood, waiting periods, admitting privileges and a host of others.

That's all.
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Response to Hekate (Reply #65)

Tue Sep 10, 2019, 09:10 PM

66. Thanks

 

I was actually referring to his stated opposition to the Helms amendment, which I think both particularly vile and most applicable to this discussion.

Again, he's not my top choice, but I do think there are a few folks mindlessly bashing him on this.

Regards
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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 01:01 AM

40. The United Nations has reported...

 

The single most effective restraint on the rate of population growth is;

1) guarantee education for women and girls
2) guaranteed economic opportunity for women.

This is based partially on results seen in rich countries where this effect has happened naturally.

This is integral to the climate change debate domestically and internationally. In the US it's critical to slow or reverse population growth because our carbon footprint is 4x larger per capita than the rest of the world.

This is not a Malthusian myth. It's thermodynamics.

Give women control of their bodies and fate and the effects have only been positive.
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Response to HelpImSurrounded (Reply #40)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 01:50 AM

42. Quite right. Educating girls has been long overlooked. A couple of facts that blew me away...

 

...when I first read them:

1. In countries where women typically have 8 children on average, educating girls as far as the 4th grade drops that number to 4 children.

2. In countries where girls ostensibly have access to education beyond that time, they drop out of school at the age of 12 years. Why, you ask? The onset of menstruation, coupled with the lack of a dedicated girls' only toilet facility, sanitary napkins, and wash water.

Edited to add: Welcome to DU.


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Response to Hekate (Reply #42)

Tue Sep 10, 2019, 03:10 PM

60. Which is why MY list of necessary steps includes...

 


Complete access to health care, reproductive health and health information for women and girls as step 3.
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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 02:01 AM

43. K&R

 

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 08:51 AM

44. It's been a long time coming.

 

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Response to Autumn (Reply #44)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 09:00 AM

45. Yes it has!

 

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #45)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 09:24 AM

47. This is troubling for Bernie.

 

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #47)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 09:30 AM

48. Not at all, Bernie isn't FFR. Here's a good thread to use the "This is troubling for Bernie."

 

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287270426

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 10:23 AM

51. This is dumb

 

Advocating for universal access to birth control in poor countries is causing an uproar? And people here are disingenuous enough to claim its somehow disqualifying? What the fuck?!?
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Response to jcgoldie (Reply #51)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 01:21 PM

56. Thank you for calling it what it is. The lack

 

of objectivity by some here regarding virtually anything Bernie Sanders says is stunning as well as somewhat disenchanting frankly. It’s no wonder many millennials complain that the two parties are essentially the same.
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Response to jcgoldie (Reply #51)

Tue Sep 10, 2019, 06:17 PM

64. Some people don't have the cognitive capacity to think beyone 'either/or'

 

One can *both* strongly support the average American reducing their carbon footprint *AND* rsupport reducing the world population via education, healthcare, and opportunity.
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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 01:49 PM

57. The media loves uproar - they create it in fact.

 

This is a nothing burger.
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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 02:42 PM

58. All democrats should support the right of women around the world

 

to have access to birth control. It needs to be the policy of the United States that women should have an unalienable right to chose whether or not to get pregnant or terminate a pregnancy.

It dismays me that people are criticizing this idea.

What’s the point of progressive politics if the liberation of women isn’t a key goal?
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