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Undecided 38%
Elizabeth Warren22%
Joe Biden14%
Bernie Sanders8%
Kamala Harris8%

Mon May 6, 2019, 11:49 PM

 

Earlier today a DU regular started a thread about Bernie Sanders and "Open Borders".

The poster included a link to an article on the Pacific Standard website written by Jack Herrera with the headline reading:
"Bernie says immigration threatens the Social Safety Net. Research shows Otherwise." Here is a link to the Thread:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=108398

The article stated "On the same day Trump tweeted, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders explained in an Iowa town hall why he's against open borders: Too many poor people would come to the United States, Sanders explained, and the country could not afford to pay for policies like universal health care or free college."

This without attribution, link or any basis.

The article then told us what Bernie actually said enclosed in quotation marks. "If you open the borders, my God, there's a lot of poverty in this world, and you're going to have people from all over the world," Sanders said. "And I don't think that's something that we can do at this point. Can't do it."

The article goes on to use numbers from a research paper done about immigration that shows the benefits of immigration on Government finances. The implication was that Bernie was inconsistent in opposing "Open Borders" because it would threaten his proposed Social Safety Net programs. But as anyone can see, Sanders never made such a claim. In fact, on previous occasions, Sanders has expressed the concern that too many immigrants would drive wages of the working class down. (See below). Interestingly enough, the very same research paper quoted in the Pacific Standard article concludes that exact point. Here is the Research paper and you can read about the impact on wages at this link:

https://www.nap.edu/read/23550/chapter/8#172

Subsequent posters then joined on to rag about using the term "Open Borders", Repeating Trump talking points, and all sorts of other attacks on Senator Sanders.


I have since finally located the tape of the Iowa Town hall where Sanders took the question about "Open Borders" and you can see his response. Here is the link: See the questioner and Sanders response comment at 1:03:00





Here is a link from a 2016 Time Magazine website article that goes into quite a bit of detail about Sanders and immigration. The last few paragraph offers a good summary:

"He eventually voted for the 2013 comprehensive immigration reform bill, but not without qualms over the guest worker program—using the kind of rhetoric those on the right might approve of.

“It does not make a lot of sense to me to bring hundreds of thousands of those workers into this country to work for minimum wage and compete with Americans kids,” Sanders said in 2013.

But in his current campaign for president, Sanders has been unequivocally in favor of a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants, and he has spoken passionately on protecting families from deportation. Many immigration activists note that Sanders’ plan is more detailed than Hillary Clinton’s.

“It is time to bring our neighbors out of the shadows. It is time to give them legal status,” Sanders said last year in Nevada, in what has become a common refrain for the Vermont senator on the campaign trail. “We are a nation of immigrants… Hard working families coming to the United States to create a brighter future for their children.”

http://time.com/4170591/bernie-sanders-immigration-conservatives/

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Arrow 92 replies Author Time Post
Reply Earlier today a DU regular started a thread about Bernie Sanders and "Open Borders". (Original post)
rgbecker May 2019 OP
CentralMass May 2019 #1
Hassin Bin Sober May 2019 #2
rgbecker May 2019 #3
Autumn May 2019 #26
ehrnst May 2019 #55
Post removed May 2019 #72
ehrnst May 2019 #81
ehrnst May 2019 #69
rgbecker May 2019 #73
ehrnst May 2019 #80
MySideOfTown May 2019 #4
MySideOfTown May 2019 #5
rgbecker May 2019 #6
ehrnst May 2019 #11
Autumn May 2019 #25
ehrnst May 2019 #31
Autumn May 2019 #56
ehrnst May 2019 #57
Autumn May 2019 #59
ehrnst May 2019 #60
Autumn May 2019 #61
ehrnst May 2019 #62
Autumn May 2019 #63
ehrnst May 2019 #64
Autumn May 2019 #65
ehrnst May 2019 #66
MySideOfTown May 2019 #67
Autumn May 2019 #71
MySideOfTown May 2019 #90
ehrnst May 2019 #7
rgbecker May 2019 #8
ehrnst May 2019 #9
rgbecker May 2019 #13
ehrnst May 2019 #24
SidDithers May 2019 #39
ehrnst May 2019 #41
rgbecker May 2019 #74
ehrnst May 2019 #79
rgbecker May 2019 #84
Post removed May 2019 #85
dalton99a May 2019 #10
rgbecker May 2019 #12
ehrnst May 2019 #16
rgbecker May 2019 #28
ehrnst May 2019 #30
rgbecker May 2019 #32
ehrnst May 2019 #34
rgbecker May 2019 #76
ehrnst May 2019 #77
dalton99a May 2019 #17
rgbecker May 2019 #29
dalton99a May 2019 #40
ehrnst May 2019 #43
ehrnst May 2019 #15
rgbecker May 2019 #18
ehrnst May 2019 #21
LakeArenal May 2019 #52
dalton99a May 2019 #19
ehrnst May 2019 #22
ecstatic May 2019 #92
WeekiWater May 2019 #14
ehrnst May 2019 #23
rgbecker May 2019 #36
ehrnst May 2019 #38
ehrnst May 2019 #20
rgbecker May 2019 #35
ehrnst May 2019 #37
rgbecker May 2019 #45
ehrnst May 2019 #51
rgbecker May 2019 #82
ehrnst May 2019 #27
rgbecker May 2019 #42
ehrnst May 2019 #44
rgbecker May 2019 #46
ehrnst May 2019 #48
rgbecker May 2019 #50
ehrnst May 2019 #53
NurseJackie May 2019 #47
ehrnst May 2019 #49
sheshe2 May 2019 #68
rgbecker May 2019 #83
ehrnst May 2019 #86
rgbecker May 2019 #89
Cha May 2019 #91
Gothmog May 2019 #54
Demsrule86 May 2019 #33
Uncle Joe May 2019 #58
ehrnst May 2019 #70
Uncle Joe May 2019 #75
ehrnst May 2019 #78
Uncle Joe May 2019 #87
WeekiWater May 2019 #88

Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Tue May 7, 2019, 12:07 AM

1. It not worth the effort.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Bernie Sanders

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Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Tue May 7, 2019, 12:10 AM

2. An honest respectful discussion will be forthcoming, I'm sure.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Bernie Sanders

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #2)

Tue May 7, 2019, 12:29 AM

3. Gonna be fun!

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to rgbecker (Reply #3)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:31 AM

26. The elusive unicorn.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Bernie Sanders

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Response to rgbecker (Reply #3)

Tue May 7, 2019, 10:23 AM

55. So, was it as 'fun' as you hoped

 

Last edited Tue May 7, 2019, 08:05 PM - Edit history (1)

when you sent the invites?






If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Elizabeth Warren

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #55)


Response to Post removed (Reply #72)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:42 PM

81. ....

 

You're just batting 1000 on the 'triggers' aren't you?




If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Elizabeth Warren

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Response to rgbecker (Reply #3)

Tue May 7, 2019, 01:00 PM

69. Really - you sent PMs to FOUR people last night?

 

SheShe too?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=110039

How did that work out?



If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Elizabeth Warren

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #69)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:18 PM

73. Pretty well. Thanks to your steady stream of posts the thread stayed up for almost 14 hours.

 

I'm disappointed more didn't bother to reply, but maybe they did take a look and saw you had me well under control!
I was thinking since they were posting on the thread about Bernie being worried about losing immigrant funding for his social safety net they'd be interested in seeing the research and the actual Iowa guy asking about "Open Borders" and Bernie's actual response.

But on the DU you never know what people are going to be interested in.

Thanks again for stopping by to put in your comments. Really interesting and always 100% correct and on the mark. I get now how you work it.

What you want to do is not say anything that could be called Bashing a Democrat, right? So you just sort of work around it.

Great work.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to rgbecker (Reply #73)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:40 PM

80. Yer welcome! But I don't recommend sending people PMs to drive up your posts

 

I could, by some, be considered....odd.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Elizabeth Warren

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Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Tue May 7, 2019, 02:09 AM

4. Red Herring

 

You know what that is, right? A simplification or slogan that totally misrepresents the meaning of an idea.

Open borders. The USA has always had them as do most countries. We have thousands of miles of ocean shore, all borders and we have open ports of entry there, we have thousands of miles of border with Canada and open ports of entry there. We have thousands of International Airports all which have open ports of entry. We have a border with Mexico with hundreds of open ports of entry. If you have open ports of entry, you have open borders. Borders are ports of entry. If you are talking about closing borders you are talking about no one coming in and no one going out. Don't believe the Rethug lies. Open borders are the reason we can trade with all foreign countries, and Mexico is our largest trading partner. Sadly the Rethugs think that is the only ports of entry we should close. Our largest trading partner. It is sad to realize how stupid Rethugs are, but we all know it.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Kamala Harris

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Response to MySideOfTown (Reply #4)

Tue May 7, 2019, 02:14 AM

5. and it is sad that a presidential candidate

 

like Bernie Sanders, doesn't understand the basic fact. He said in the clip, he is not for open borders.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Kamala Harris

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Response to MySideOfTown (Reply #5)

Tue May 7, 2019, 06:59 AM

6. You might enjoy Wikipedia's take on the issue of "Open Borders."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_border
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to rgbecker (Reply #6)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:28 AM

11. You may enjoy the current POTUS and thus the GOP's take on the issue of "Open Borders"

 

Which is what the term triggers in conservatives:

“The Democrats want open borders. They want anybody they wanted, including MS-13, pouring into the country.”

"The face of the Democrats is now Maxine Waters who, together with Nancy Pelosi, have established a fine leadership team. They should always stay together and lead the Democrats, who want Open Borders and Unlimited Crime, well into the future....and pick Crooked Hillary for Pres."


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/27/us/politics/fast-check-donald-trump-democrats-open-borders.html

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Elizabeth Warren

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Response to MySideOfTown (Reply #5)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:30 AM

25. Is Bernie wrong to say he's not for open borders? Which Democrats are for open borders?

 

I've never seen a Democrat who is for open borders. The point the Republicans are trying to get people to believe with their "Democrats want open borders" bullshit is that the Dems want no immigration laws.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/27/us/politics/fast-check-donald-trump-democrats-open-borders.html

No, Democrats Don’t Want ‘Open Borders’

President Trump has falsely claimed at least two dozen times since taking office that Democrats want to open American borders. But legislation shows that Democrats support border security measures, though not the border wall he wants to build

“The Democrats want open borders. They want anybody they wanted, including MS-13, pouring into the country.”

"The face of the Democrats is now Maxine Waters who, together with Nancy Pelosi, have established a fine leadership team. They should always stay together and lead the Democrats, who want Open Borders and Unlimited Crime, well into the future....and pick Crooked Hillary for Pres."




If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Bernie Sanders

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Response to Autumn (Reply #25)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:44 AM

31. If a Democratic candidate was to say...

 

"I mean not many are in favor of letting doctors just kill babies after they are born. If you did that, you'd have horrible chaos in delivery rooms."

Would you say that their consultants were doing a good job or bad job with their talking points?

How about this?

“Nobody, I mean not many people believe in open borders. If you simply opened the borders, you’d have people from Vietnam and China and Mexico and Latin America coming in. And no one thinks that is a plausible approach. On the other hand, I think the strength of this nation is the diversity and the new ideas from immigrants from all walks of life have given this country. So you need a rational, non-racist immigration policy which welcomes people in from all over the world to improve our economy, but clearly you cannot have open borders.”

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Elizabeth Warren

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #31)

Tue May 7, 2019, 11:05 AM

56. It's not my job to tell politicians how to talk. And I have better things to do than waste my

 

time fixing what they say to fit my way of thinking, that's a complete waste of time. One does not speak for another person and to think you have a better way of saying what someone already said is another waste of time. The words were already spoken. Take Biden and his many gaffes for example. I thought his comment
“The younger generation now tells me how tough things are—give me a break,” “No, no, I have no empathy for it, give me a break.”
was the most tone-deaf comment I have ever heard any politician say. What a way to turn young people off. And he's the supposed front runner destined to beat Trump. Maybe your concern should be telling Biden's consultants they are doing a bad job with their talking points? Or not.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Bernie Sanders

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Response to Autumn (Reply #56)

Tue May 7, 2019, 11:10 AM

57. And WHATABOUTISM for the win!

 

When you have nothing left.

That quote really got under your skin trying to defend it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Elizabeth Warren

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #57)

Tue May 7, 2019, 11:22 AM

59. Love your WHATABOUTISM go to. I've noticed you tend to use that often when

 

you don't like what another person has to say. Your use of that word says a lot.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/whataboutism-origin-meaning

'Whataboutism' is a rhetorical device that involves accusing others of offenses as a way of deflecting attention from one's own deeds.

The tactic behind whataboutism has been around for a long time. Rhetoricians generally consider it to be a form of tu quoque, which means "you too" in Latin and involves charging your accuser with whatever it is you've just been accused of rather than refuting the truth of the accusation made against you. Tu quoque is considered to be a logical fallacy, because whether or not the original accuser is likewise guilty of an offense has no bearing on the truth value of the original accusation.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Bernie Sanders

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Response to Autumn (Reply #59)

Tue May 7, 2019, 11:32 AM

60. "I know you are but what am I?"

 



That quote of Bernie's got under your skin even more than I thought.



If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Elizabeth Warren

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #60)

Tue May 7, 2019, 11:55 AM

61. Why do you think that? Because I pointed out Biden's gaffe and you can't clean that one up?

 

Where is your post containing a quote of Bernie's that got under my skin? I must have missed it because you haven't quoted Bernie to me. If you had it wouldn't get under my skin anyway, I mostly agree with what he says and if I don't agree it's still doesn't bother me.

Maybe you are confused as to who you posted to. These are your responses to me and a Bernie quote is in none of them. So you failed with your little dig.

ehrnst (20,060 posts)

31.If a Democratic candidate was to say...

"I mean not many are in favor of letting doctors just kill babies after they are born. If you did that, you'd have horrible chaos in delivery rooms."

Would you say that their consultants were doing a good job or bad job with their talking points?

How about this?

“Nobody, I mean not many people believe in open borders. If you simply opened the borders, you’d have people from Vietnam and China and Mexico and Latin America coming in. And no one thinks that is a plausible approach. On the other hand, I think the strength of this nation is the diversity and the new ideas from immigrants from all walks of life have given this country. So you need a rational, non-racist immigration policy which welcomes people in from all over the world to improve our economy, but clearly you cannot have open borders.”


Star Member ehrnst (20,060 posts)

57. And WHATABOUTISM for the win!

When you have nothing left.

That quote really got under your skin trying to defend it.



Star Member ehrnst (20,060 posts)

60. "I know you are but what am I?"



That quote of Bernie's got under your skin even more than I thought.


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Bernie Sanders

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Response to Autumn (Reply #61)

Tue May 7, 2019, 11:58 AM

62. "I know you are but what am I?"

 

Keep on keepin on...



If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Elizabeth Warren

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #62)

Tue May 7, 2019, 12:29 PM

63. To be clear. You seem to be bragging and mocking me, because a quote that you never posted

 

got under my skin? Admit your mistake and move on. When you make a mistake trying to cover it up or blaming on someone else, in this instance me, that only makes you look bad.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Bernie Sanders

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Response to Autumn (Reply #63)

Tue May 7, 2019, 12:30 PM

64. "Admit your mistake and move on."

 

Like you do?

When you make a mistake trying to cover it up or blaming on someone else, in this instance me, that only makes you look bad.



3...2...1...
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Elizabeth Warren

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #64)

Tue May 7, 2019, 12:32 PM

65. I didn't make a mistake and claim I posted something that I didn't. nt

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Bernie Sanders

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Response to Autumn (Reply #65)

Tue May 7, 2019, 12:40 PM

66. And ignition!

 



Like clockwork.

Tag, you're it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Elizabeth Warren

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Response to Autumn (Reply #25)

Tue May 7, 2019, 12:54 PM

67. When Crooked Donnie threatened to close the borders a few weeks ago

 

how many democrats were in favor of that? Closed borders are the opposite of Open borders, okay? And were you happy that Avocados doubled in price overnight? No one thought it was just about turning brown people away, though I think sometimes that our candidates think that is okay. We cannot allow Dirty Donnie and his party to control the narrative on this. I am for open borders and the international trade it allows. Aren't you? Bernie seems confused.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Kamala Harris

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Response to MySideOfTown (Reply #67)

Tue May 7, 2019, 02:21 PM

71. You need to look at why and how Trump and his minions use the term open borders .nt

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Bernie Sanders

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Response to Autumn (Reply #71)

Tue May 7, 2019, 09:00 PM

90. Which is why we need to change the narrative. n/t

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Kamala Harris

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Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:10 AM

7. Well, very recent statements made by Sanders about Chinese, Vietnamese, Mexican and South American

 

Last edited Tue May 7, 2019, 08:48 AM - Edit history (1)

immigrants indicate that he believes those particular countries produce impoverished, uneducated immigrants, and an abundance of them wouldn't be plausible.

“Nobody, I mean not many people believe in open borders. If you simply opened the borders, you’d have people from Vietnam and China and Mexico and Latin America coming in. And no one thinks that is a plausible approach. On the other hand, I think the strength of this nation is the diversity and the new ideas from immigrants from all walks of life have given this country. So you need a rational, non-racist immigration policy which welcomes people in from all over the world to improve our economy, but clearly you cannot have open borders.”


Open borders defenses aside, the bigger point is not Sanders’ views on open borders, its’ more as to how he views immigrants from places like Mexico, Vietnam, China and Latin America.

When someone shows you who they are, be thankful. This is a rep elected from a 98% white state, who has not had to handle the issues of a diverse population, nor speak to a diverse population in a sensitive way.

Thanks for the opportunity to bring Bernie's current views into the discussion.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Elizabeth Warren

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #7)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:14 AM

8. I'd like to see a link to that statement by Sanders.

 

I'm guessing that you have a problem with the first statement in your post, but are OK with the second?? How can I tell? Maybe you have no position and are just stating facts?

Thanks for your post.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to rgbecker (Reply #8)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:21 AM

9. My pleasure.

 




I don't have a problem with the first statement in my post. Is that a typo on your part?
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to ehrnst (Reply #9)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:46 AM

13. Thanks for posting this video.

 

I think Sanders is right on the immigration issue. He speaks out on this complex issue more than the other Democratic Candidates. Unafraid to take the heat...just like on Medicare for All and the rest of his policies.

Did you have a look at the Time Magazine rundown of Sanders on the immigration issue in 2016?

http://time.com/4170591/bernie-sanders-immigration-conservatives/

I didn't have a problem with the first statement in our post. Just trying to determine where you are on the immigration issue.

Thanks again for the video. It really shows where Sanders is, and recently, on the issue.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to rgbecker (Reply #13)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:26 AM

24. Yes, I found the praise for his policies from nationalist anti-immigration conservatives

 

mentioned interesting.

Thanks for sharing that article. It really shows what those underlying reasons for his immigration positions are.

These parts of the article you shared were particularly interesting:

Roy Beck, the president of NumbersUSA, a group that seeks to dramatically reduce legal and illegal immigration to the United States, said this week that after studying Sanders’ record and rhetoric, he sees some common ground.

“I think in his gut he believes his obligation as president would be to the workers of America, not to the workers of the world,” Beck said in an interview.

Rep. Steve King of Iowa, the adamantly pro-life co-chair of Sen. Ted Cruz’s presidential campaign who has dismissed global warming as a hoax and repeatedly supported shutting down the federal government, praised Sanders’ immigration stance several times in August.

“I admire Bernie’s passion and I notice that his immigration position is closer to mine than it is some of the presidential candidates on the Republican side,” King said in an interview with an Iowa radio station over this past summer. “He’s said ‘Let’s take care of American workers.’ I’m all for that.”
......................................................

But the praise is not accidental. Sanders’ opposition to the 2007 immigration reform bill and his rhetoric about the effect of immigrant labor on American workers have dismayed immigration activists and liberal allies in the past. He has expressed concern repeatedly over the years that guest workers in the United States depress wages and squeeze Americans out of their jobs.

Joining Sanders in opposing the 2007 bill was the AFL-CIO, the largest coalition of labor unions in the country—as well as staunchly conservative members of Congress like King and advocates like Beck.

..............................................................

Sanders has “pitted immigrants as an obstacle to tackling unemployment on a number of occasions,” said Alida Garcia, director of coalitions and policy at the pro-immigrant group FWD.us. “He’s evolved on this issue since his campaign launched, but where his prior statements have been troublesome is within his economic framework of welcoming new immigrants to our country.”.



If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Elizabeth Warren

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #24)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:54 AM

39. Jesus. Steve King is praising Bernie?...

 



Sid
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Kamala Harris

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #39)

Tue May 7, 2019, 09:00 AM

41. King believes that immigrants are a threat to American jobs. (nt)

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Elizabeth Warren

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #24)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:23 PM

74. Yikes! Bernie is joined by AFL-CIO in opposing immigration???

 

WTF? How is that going to play out with Biden and his bid for the Union vote?

From your post of the Time.com piece:

Joining Sanders in opposing the 2007 bill was the AFL-CIO, the largest coalition of labor unions in the country—as well as staunchly conservative members of Congress like King and advocates like Beck.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to rgbecker (Reply #74)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:39 PM

79. BUT WHAT ABOUT BIDEN???

 




If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Elizabeth Warren

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #79)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:56 PM

84. ALL CAPS! Gotta love it. What next?

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to rgbecker (Reply #84)


Response to ehrnst (Reply #7)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:23 AM

10. Precisely. Why did he single out Vietnam and China and Mexico and Latin America?

 



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Response to dalton99a (Reply #10)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:40 AM

12. Could be because these countries have the highest emmigration numbers.

 

Showing results for Which countries have the highest emigration rates?
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Featured snippet from the web
Countries With The Most People Living Abroad - Emigration Rate by Country

India - 16.6 Million.
Mexico - 13 Million. ...
Russia - 10.6 Million. ...
China - 10 Million. ...
Bangladesh - 7.5 Million. Since the 1980s, Bangladesh has witnessed large scale emigration from the country to countries abroad. ...
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Response to rgbecker (Reply #12)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:06 AM

16. No statistics were given by Senator Sanders, or reasons as to why he chose those

 

countries.

It appears he assumed everyone would know why he listed them, and I don't believe that people have the stats for top emigration rates at hand. The fact that they are all predominantly non-white, and have a history of American missionaries and charities going to "save the children" in those countries would be a more logical collective identifiers for most Americans.

It also appears he thought that they would not come from 'the walk of life' that most Americans do, that they would not be the highly skilled or highly educated, otherwise, taking in larger numbers would be "plausible."

By percentage of population, the highest emigration rates are not on your list:



https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/30/immigrant-share-in-u-s-nears-record-high-but-remains-below-that-of-many-other-countries/





If I were to vote in a presidential
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Elizabeth Warren

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #16)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:38 AM

28. Of Course it is number of immigrants not the rate which effect wages in the country

 

of arrival. Bosnia accounts for just 1/10th of the numbers emigrating from India which doesn't even register on your list of top nine with highest rates for example.
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Response to rgbecker (Reply #28)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:41 AM

30. I think that you may get a backache from bending over backwards

 

avoiding the obvious.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #30)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:48 AM

32. What are you suggesting: That Sanders is a racist?

 

Are you seeing something here I am missing?
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Response to rgbecker (Reply #32)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:49 AM

34. Your words, Honey, not mine. Perhaps you didn't bother to read this post:

 

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=109503

Nice try, though.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #34)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:29 PM

76. Honey?

 

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Response to rgbecker (Reply #76)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:37 PM

77. Yes, I believe that's the way I spelled it.(nt)

 

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Response to rgbecker (Reply #12)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:06 AM

17. Why didn't he mention Russia or the Ukraine?

 

Number of emigrants/current population

Ukraine 13.5%
Mexico 9.8%
Russia 7.4%
Bangladesh 4.5%
Vietnam 2.8%
India 1.2%
China 0.7%

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #17)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:39 AM

29. Maybe he felt there was a time restriction on the point.

 

Why do you think he mentioned the countries he did rather than others?
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Response to rgbecker (Reply #29)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:54 AM

40. Because he was aware many white Americans view nonwhite immigrants as a threat.

 




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Response to dalton99a (Reply #40)

Tue May 7, 2019, 09:02 AM

43. Those are also countries/places that are mentioned whenever jobs are outsourced.

 

I'm sure he's quite aware of those white Americans associations as well.
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Response to dalton99a (Reply #10)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:50 AM

15. Some people seem to envision uneducated, impoverished, non-white, non-english speaking masses

 

that would not be from "a walk of life" that perhaps we want a lot more of.

Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie talked in an interview about well-meaning clueless white women in her dorm where she went to college in Pennsylvania, coming from Nigeria. She said that they complimented her on how good her English was, despite the fact that English is the official language of Nigeria. They also offered to help her learn to use the stove, and were surprised that she didn't listen to "tribal music." They had a 'story' in their head about people from Africa, all coming from villages, needing kids like them to save their candy money so that those poor African children could be lifted into modernity. It was incorrect, but their privileged thinking assumed that there was only one story for all "africans" which was the one they imagined.

Someone who listens and is genuinely curious, who doesn't assume they are the smartest in the room, and that everyone else needs 'guidance' is less likely to say insensitive, or even condescending things - however well meaning.


This Senator also once said:

"When you're white, you don't know what it's like to be living in a ghetto, you don't know what it's like to be poor." indicating that his 'story' of poverty and race seems to be one from a constituency that is 98% white, and very rural.
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Response to ehrnst (Reply #15)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:08 AM

18. I'm wondering how you feel about that?

 

Do you think his story disqualifies him for the Presidency? Is he too white for America today?
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Response to rgbecker (Reply #18)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:18 AM

21. He's no more caucasian than all the former POTUS's before but one.

 



My view of Candidate Sanders isn't based on his race or gender.

I just don't think he has the skills neccessary to be an effective POTUS.
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Response to ehrnst (Reply #21)

Tue May 7, 2019, 09:41 AM

52. Ahhh. The crux!! The effective skills!

 

Also, So much for huddled masses yearning to be free!
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Response to ehrnst (Reply #15)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:09 AM

19. The level of tone deafness is amazing.

 



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Response to dalton99a (Reply #19)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:19 AM

22. Indeed. (nt)

 

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Elizabeth Warren

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #7)

Tue May 7, 2019, 10:04 PM

92. +1000. nt

 

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Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:49 AM

14. Sanders has voted against a pathway to citizenship because of guest worker programs.

 

After working to block a pathway to citizenship for over ten million people because of the guest worker program he then only evolved because he saw the harm he had perpetrated. The guest worker program flourished over the next five years and over ten million people he voted against are still being forced to live in the shadows.

And it is a fair point to bring up more now than ever. Like his supporters often boldly claim, he never changes. His same approach can be seen in a very recent issue. When he opposed Russian sanctions because of the Iran Nuclear deal. So he opposed the sanctions and what has happened to the Iran Nuclear Deal? He has a history of doing this. Voting against the good just to keep himself pure for his base.

He might now claim to support a pathway to citizenship but we know if there are minor items in a comprehensive package that he doesn't like he will absolutely vote to keep oppression alive and well. He has a history of it. There is not a thing incorrect about that comment. And he was accurately portrayed in this tape. The manner in which he addressed the question is inaccurate and promotes a false assertion against other entrants into the field. He did so to cater to his base. It's clear that in many ways he will never evolve.

Wow. From one of your links.

Rep. Steve King of Iowa, the adamantly pro-life co-chair of Sen. Ted Cruz’s presidential campaign who has dismissed global warming as a hoax and repeatedly supported shutting down the federal government, praised Sanders’ immigration stance several times in August.

“I admire Bernie’s passion and I notice that his immigration position is closer to mine than it is some of the presidential candidates on the Republican side,” King said in an interview with an Iowa radio station over this past summer. “He’s said ‘Let’s take care of American workers.’ I’m all for that.”

Also this summer, King compared Sanders with Republican candidate Donald Trump, saying they’re “both speaking with non-politically correct language, and Bernie has taken some positions that I agree with. And part of his immigration policy is something that I agree with.”

But the praise is not accidental. Sanders’ opposition to the 2007 immigration reform bill and his rhetoric about the effect of immigrant labor on American workers have dismayed immigration activists and liberal allies in the past. He has expressed concern repeatedly over the years that guest workers in the United States depress wages and squeeze Americans out of their jobs.


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Joe Biden

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Response to WeekiWater (Reply #14)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:21 AM

23. Sanders' emphasis on immigration as a problem for American workers has gotten him praise

 

from interesting sources.

The author of this OP provided me with a link to this article on Bernie's immigration policies:

Roy Beck, the president of NumbersUSA, a group that seeks to dramatically reduce legal and illegal immigration to the United States, said this week that after studying Sanders’ record and rhetoric, he sees some common ground.

“I think in his gut he believes his obligation as president would be to the workers of America, not to the workers of the world,” Beck said in an interview.

Rep. Steve King of Iowa, the adamantly pro-life co-chair of Sen. Ted Cruz’s presidential campaign who has dismissed global warming as a hoax and repeatedly supported shutting down the federal government, praised Sanders’ immigration stance several times in August.

“I admire Bernie’s passion and I notice that his immigration position is closer to mine than it is some of the presidential candidates on the Republican side,” King said in an interview with an Iowa radio station over this past summer. “He’s said ‘Let’s take care of American workers.’ I’m all for that.”
......................................................

But the praise is not accidental. Sanders’ opposition to the 2007 immigration reform bill and his rhetoric about the effect of immigrant labor on American workers have dismayed immigration activists and liberal allies in the past. He has expressed concern repeatedly over the years that guest workers in the United States depress wages and squeeze Americans out of their jobs.

Joining Sanders in opposing the 2007 bill was the AFL-CIO, the largest coalition of labor unions in the country—as well as staunchly conservative members of Congress like King and advocates like Beck.

..............................................................

Sanders has “pitted immigrants as an obstacle to tackling unemployment on a number of occasions,” said Alida Garcia, director of coalitions and policy at the pro-immigrant group FWD.us. “He’s evolved on this issue since his campaign launched, but where his prior statements have been troublesome is within his economic framework of welcoming new immigrants to our country.”.


http://time.com/4170591/bernie-sanders-immigration-conservatives/
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Response to ehrnst (Reply #23)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:51 AM

36. Also from the article:

 

He eventually voted for the 2013 comprehensive immigration reform bill, but not without qualms over the guest worker program—using the kind of rhetoric those on the right might approve of.

“It does not make a lot of sense to me to bring hundreds of thousands of those workers into this country to work for minimum wage and compete with Americans kids,” Sanders said in 2013.

But in his current campaign for president, Sanders has been unequivocally in favor of a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants, and he has spoken passionately on protecting families from deportation. Many immigration activists note that Sanders’ plan is more detailed than Hillary Clinton’s.

“It is time to bring our neighbors out of the shadows. It is time to give them legal status,” Sanders said last year in Nevada, in what has become a common refrain for the Vermont senator on the campaign trail. “We are a nation of immigrants… Hard working families coming to the United States to create a brighter future for their children.”
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Response to rgbecker (Reply #36)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:53 AM

38. Thanks for sharing the article!

 

It was very enlightening.

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Elizabeth Warren

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Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:14 AM

20. What immigration activists felt Sanders' Immigration policy is more detailed than HRC'?

 

Hers was quite detailed.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/immigration-reform/

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #20)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:50 AM

35. You'll have to Google that yourself!

 

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Response to rgbecker (Reply #35)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:52 AM

37. The go to reply for one who can't back up a statement

 

but still wants to post like they have.
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Response to ehrnst (Reply #37)

Tue May 7, 2019, 09:07 AM

45. Listen, I can't control what Time Magazine puts in their article.

 

Just as You and I can't control what Pacific Standard puts in theirs. But if they made an error and it can be sorted out, I suggest we look into it. The article is from 2016 so that may be a starting point.

I don't think I'm going to spend the time trying to find it.

If you feel it is important go for it. I don't think it goes to the issue as you have defined it: Bernie Sanders is probably racist in his immigration views and if not, at least tone deaf concerning issues of race and Immigration.

If that is not how you feel, then correct the record.
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Response to rgbecker (Reply #45)

Tue May 7, 2019, 09:32 AM

51. You keep accusing me of saying Sanders is racist. Is that what you're left with?

 

It's not my job to defend the insulting straw men you set up to attack.

If that is not how you feel, then correct the record.


Oh my. You also dropped the HRC reference "correct the record."

I know you're surprised at getting called out on your insults instead of someone gobbling the weak bait, but you were the one who really wanted me (and apparently others) to come read your OP.

It must sting to have the article you shared used to rebut your claims.

Careful what you wish for.







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Response to ehrnst (Reply #51)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:51 PM

82. I do not keep accusing you of saying Sanders is racist.

 

What is the issue you keep coming to in this thread? I made a guest that you were concerned that Sanders has a race problem...but I get now that you can't say that out load or you might be flagged...so just keep putting up articles that say he has a problem with black people, immigrants. Is coming from 98% white state etc. I see now you can't say it so that''s OK. We'll work around it together. I'm won't try to get you bash Bernie any more...I get it. No more straw men from me. Or maybe I'm wrong. If you like, you could put up the real man so we can address your concerns. Is it even about Bernie Sanders or something else I'm missing? I see you are supporting my Senator Warren. She's great and I hope she can stay in the fight as she is the smartest of the 20 candidates so far.

What is the "HRC reference "Correct the record"????? Is that another secret code thing? (Just Googled this. News to me).

Sorry if you feel insulted. Not my intent. Just learning from the master. Using my shares to rebut my claims...gotta love it.

It's like you feel the force. Like you own the place. Love it.







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Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:32 AM

27. Can you state what "Trump talking points" you are referring to?

 

I missed those.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #27)

Tue May 7, 2019, 09:00 AM

42. In fact you had mentioned that Bernie was making RW talking points....

 

By even responding to the questioner at the town hall.

But then there was this!

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=108452
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Response to rgbecker (Reply #42)

Tue May 7, 2019, 09:03 AM

44. If you're going to take the trouble to PM me at 1:00 in the morning to get me to come look at your

 

OP that you just posted, then you should be aware of what it is that you posted... or were you too tired?

You were talking about RW talking points from those participating in the discussion.

Subsequent posters then joined on to rag about using the term "Open Borders", Repeating Trump talking points, and all sorts of other attacks on Senator Sanders.


Can you link to any of those?

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #44)

Tue May 7, 2019, 09:12 AM

46. If you want to know you are going to have to go through the thread yourself.

 

If you don't want to look at my OP, don't. I won't be offended. Just thought since you had comments on the thread you'd want to see the actual references made and what they actually said rather than the distillation made by the Pacific standard article's author since they were not linked and could not be easily read.
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Response to rgbecker (Reply #46)

Tue May 7, 2019, 09:16 AM

48. You made the claim, it's your burden of proof.

 

But it appears that you can't back it up your claim of DUer's "repeating Trump talking points" which apparently is your definition for anything that doesn't support Senator Sanders on every point.

Just don't get offended when someone points out your own unsupported accusations.

Look - you wanted me to come, asked me to come and post here, and now you're complaining about it?





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Elizabeth Warren

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #48)

Tue May 7, 2019, 09:31 AM

50. I see I didn't make my point very well.

 

I said: Subsequent posters then joined on to rag about using the term "Open Borders", Repeating Trump talking points, and all sorts of other attacks on Senator Sanders.

It seems you thought I meant that people on the DU were "Repeating Trump talking points when what I meant to say was that they were claiming that mention of "Open Boarders" was a Trump or RW talking point or that the country couldn't handle more immigrants was a Trump talking point and that since that was going on, Sanders was somehow Repeating Trump talking points.

I'll edit the post after work, with your permission. And if you insist, I'll go through each post to show what I consider attacks on Sanders.

I'm not complaining about you coming on board. It's been fun and I'm learning a lot. Sorry if you think I'm complaining....wonder which post gave you that opinion....another fuck up on my part?

Would love it if people were more straight forward about expressing their feelings rather than just posting stuff like its a secret society.

If you think Sanders is a Racist, grumpy, too old just say it for Christ sake!
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Response to rgbecker (Reply #50)

Tue May 7, 2019, 09:43 AM

53. I call 'em as I see 'em

 

You pm'd at least two people to come see your clever OP, me among them.

You flat out deny what you wrote in your OP when called out on it by one of those people - who copied and pasted your own words...

You keep accusing me of saying Sanders is a racist, because clearly you have nothing else left to respond to my points.

You make repeated demands that I defend that strawman.

You make unfounded claims, then get testy when asked for backup.

You attempt to bait me with what I assume you think are clever 'triggers' for HRC supporters.

If you think Sanders is a Racist, grumpy, too old just say it for Christ sake!


If you can't tolerate anything but adoration for Sanders, just say it for Christ sake!



And if you don't want someone posting something that upsets you, don't send them a message asking them to for Christ sake!


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Response to ehrnst (Reply #44)

Tue May 7, 2019, 09:15 AM

47. I was spammed at 1AM as well. I've always found attention-seeking behavior to be annoying.

 



If I were to vote in a presidential
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Kamala Harris

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #47)

Tue May 7, 2019, 09:17 AM

49. Goodness, someone was very, very proud of themselves weren't they? A bit creepy, though.

 

Last edited Tue May 7, 2019, 08:08 PM - Edit history (2)



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Response to ehrnst (Reply #49)

Tue May 7, 2019, 12:56 PM

68. Well, well.

 

I got a PM with the invite, from them at 1:02 AM...long after I had gone to bed.

What's with that?!
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Response to ehrnst (Reply #49)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:54 PM

83. You should be proud of yourself too!

 

Amazing what you can do to a discussion page. I don't think anyone has worked it as well as you. So glad I thought to PM you and invite you on the program.
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Response to rgbecker (Reply #83)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:07 PM

86. Didn't expect to be outed on that, did you?

 

Don't worry, you'll live it down.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #86)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:20 PM

89. Don't know what you mean?

 

Isn't that what the PM board is about? You know, talk to each other. Did I miss the memo?

I'm just disappointed the others didn't let me know they saw the post....all the info I went to so much trouble to gather.

You gotta love the research paper actually backing up Sander's real point about lowering wages. Did you ever figure out who that Herrera guy is? And the so called "Fact checked" part in the article where they completely miss paraphrased what Sanders said.

But you handled it well...went straight to the real issue without even saying the word.....love it. You ARE a honey.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #86)

Tue May 7, 2019, 09:44 PM

91. Or not.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #47)

Tue May 7, 2019, 10:11 AM

54. Wow

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:49 AM

33. In 2013 there was no shot at passing an immigration bill.

 

The important vote was for the immigration bill during the Bush years. This was the 2007 Immigration bill. Sen Sanders voted against it.
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Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Tue May 7, 2019, 11:15 AM

58. Kicked and recommended.

 

Thanks for the thread rgbecker.
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Bernie Sanders

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #58)

Tue May 7, 2019, 01:02 PM

70. Did rgbecker send you a PM last night asking you to come comment, too?

 

Join the club!


https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=109640


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Response to ehrnst (Reply #70)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:25 PM

75. No and I didn't send you any PMs either.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Bernie Sanders

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #75)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:37 PM

78. I didn't say you did.

 

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Elizabeth Warren

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #78)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:11 PM

87. What precisely is your objection to the OP? n/t

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Bernie Sanders

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #70)

Tue May 7, 2019, 08:19 PM

88. I'm really feeling left out. NT

 

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Joe Biden

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