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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!

Sun May 5, 2019, 09:42 AM

 

Bernie has praised Trump and criticized Biden

So Bernie Sanders was on ABC's "This Week" saying that Trump's face-to-face meeting with North Korea's Kim Jong Un "is the right thing to do."

He also has been criticizing Joe Biden for voting for the Iraq War, like a hundred years ago.

The Washington Post said Sanders was starting to resort to his 2016 playbook where he gained ground in the primaries by attacking Hillary Clinton for (among other things) voting for the Iraq War.

Since Biden's poll leads are so great, Bernie may get desperate and attack Biden more, according to the Post.

I sincerely hope that doesn't happen. Sanders can't win Democratic primaries by attacking Democrats.

Biden, at least, is mainly attacking Trump, and that's what Sanders should do also.

Link to Post article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/joe-bidens-strong-debut-puts-pressure-on-other-candidates-vying-to-challenge-trump/2019/05/04/f20a40c6-6d08-11e9-be3a-33217240a539_story.html

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Arrow 170 replies Author Time Post
Reply Bernie has praised Trump and criticized Biden (Original post)
Vidal May 2019 OP
comradebillyboy May 2019 #1
TomCADem May 2019 #119
trueblue2007 May 2019 #136
dalton99a May 2019 #2
Cha May 2019 #83
dalton99a May 2019 #138
lapucelle May 2019 #3
dalton99a May 2019 #4
Nuggets May 2019 #6
RazBerryBeret May 2019 #5
SMC22307 May 2019 #8
RazBerryBeret May 2019 #9
SMC22307 May 2019 #16
BlueWI May 2019 #50
katmondoo May 2019 #10
SMC22307 May 2019 #11
namahage May 2019 #27
John Fante May 2019 #30
SMC22307 May 2019 #35
ehrnst May 2019 #53
George II May 2019 #74
Cha May 2019 #86
SMC22307 May 2019 #90
ehrnst May 2019 #115
rgbecker May 2019 #123
ehrnst May 2019 #125
namahage May 2019 #151
lapucelle May 2019 #157
betsuni May 2019 #158
sheshe2 May 2019 #94
sheshe2 May 2019 #124
ehrnst May 2019 #133
sheshe2 May 2019 #140
lapucelle May 2019 #156
SMC22307 May 2019 #34
namahage May 2019 #37
ehrnst May 2019 #57
Cha May 2019 #108
Cha May 2019 #107
George II May 2019 #128
namahage May 2019 #135
msongs May 2019 #38
RazBerryBeret May 2019 #51
Cha May 2019 #113
Amimnoch May 2019 #25
SMC22307 May 2019 #31
treestar May 2019 #63
Amimnoch May 2019 #82
SMC22307 May 2019 #99
ehrnst May 2019 #118
theaocp May 2019 #36
Vidal May 2019 #40
InAbLuEsTaTe May 2019 #109
BannonsLiver May 2019 #134
lark May 2019 #85
RazBerryBeret May 2019 #105
SMC22307 May 2019 #7
Agschmid May 2019 #14
SMC22307 May 2019 #17
NYMinute May 2019 #19
SMC22307 May 2019 #22
theaocp May 2019 #24
SMC22307 May 2019 #26
ehrnst May 2019 #121
theaocp May 2019 #122
ehrnst May 2019 #127
NYMinute May 2019 #41
Agschmid May 2019 #44
NYMinute May 2019 #49
BlueWI May 2019 #52
NYMinute May 2019 #54
BlueWI May 2019 #81
NYMinute May 2019 #97
BlueWI May 2019 #145
BlueWI May 2019 #149
ehrnst May 2019 #88
BlueWI May 2019 #146
Agschmid May 2019 #60
NYMinute May 2019 #62
Agschmid May 2019 #80
ehrnst May 2019 #93
Cha May 2019 #95
Agschmid May 2019 #117
ehrnst May 2019 #120
BlueWI May 2019 #147
ehrnst May 2019 #159
BlueWI May 2019 #166
ehrnst May 2019 #167
emulatorloo May 2019 #126
Agschmid May 2019 #129
emulatorloo May 2019 #130
Agschmid May 2019 #131
emulatorloo May 2019 #132
emmaverybo May 2019 #152
Agschmid May 2019 #155
ehrnst May 2019 #168
ehrnst May 2019 #160
ehrnst May 2019 #87
Agschmid May 2019 #89
ehrnst May 2019 #92
Agschmid May 2019 #102
ehrnst May 2019 #112
Agschmid May 2019 #116
BannonsLiver May 2019 #47
theaocp May 2019 #65
BannonsLiver May 2019 #67
theaocp May 2019 #68
BannonsLiver May 2019 #69
theaocp May 2019 #70
BannonsLiver May 2019 #71
lunamagica May 2019 #79
oasis May 2019 #46
TwilightZone May 2019 #55
treestar May 2019 #64
sfwriter May 2019 #103
InAbLuEsTaTe May 2019 #114
NurseJackie May 2019 #12
NYMinute May 2019 #13
NYMinute May 2019 #15
liberal N proud May 2019 #18
theaocp May 2019 #21
comradebillyboy May 2019 #150
George II May 2019 #20
Cha May 2019 #100
R B Garr May 2019 #23
John Fante May 2019 #32
NYMinute May 2019 #42
mcar May 2019 #61
Cha May 2019 #110
LuvLoogie May 2019 #28
John Fante May 2019 #33
The Velveteen Ocelot May 2019 #29
Gothmog May 2019 #39
Vidal May 2019 #43
floppyboo May 2019 #104
emmaverybo May 2019 #45
SidDithers May 2019 #48
theaocp May 2019 #66
SidDithers May 2019 #72
theaocp May 2019 #75
SidDithers May 2019 #91
namahage May 2019 #73
theaocp May 2019 #76
namahage May 2019 #78
revmclaren May 2019 #143
still_one May 2019 #56
DemocratSinceBirth May 2019 #58
mcar May 2019 #59
Progressive dog May 2019 #77
Politicub May 2019 #84
floppyboo May 2019 #96
Cha May 2019 #98
BannonsLiver May 2019 #101
Cha May 2019 #106
George II May 2019 #137
BannonsLiver May 2019 #139
Mike Nelson May 2019 #111
floppyboo May 2019 #141
Eric J in MN May 2019 #142
revmclaren May 2019 #144
UniteFightBack May 2019 #148
Tiggeroshii May 2019 #153
betsuni May 2019 #154
Autumn May 2019 #161
still_one May 2019 #162
Autumn May 2019 #163
still_one May 2019 #164
Autumn May 2019 #165
Laura PourMeADrink May 2019 #169
Gothmog May 2019 #170

Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 09:45 AM

1. It's like deja vu all over again.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #1)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:00 PM

119. Triangulation Bernie Style. Wait until Immigration and Gun Control Comes Up

 

Bernie can tout his past opposition to immigration reform and his support of immunity from lawsuits for gun makers.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #1)

Sun May 5, 2019, 06:03 PM

136. last time he spent all his time attacking Hillary.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 09:50 AM

2. Yeah, if we feed the monster with praise and compliments, he will spare us

 


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #2)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:30 PM

83. More feeding the monster from BS..

 

"Trump took on the Republican establishment, he took on the Democratic establishment, took on the media establishment and he ended up winning the election to become president of the United States. And that is an extraordinary accomplishment. And it talks about perseverance, it talks about very strong political instincts, it talks about a way to connect with people,” Sanders said.

https://thehill.com/homenews/313445-sanders-i-give-donald-trump-his-due
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Cha (Reply #83)

Sun May 5, 2019, 06:04 PM

138. Geez. No wonder Trump likes him so much

 



If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Vidal (Original post)


Response to lapucelle (Reply #3)

Sun May 5, 2019, 09:55 AM

4. WTF

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #3)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:13 AM

6. Oh?

 



How does he come to this conclusion? Have the trolls been given the proper response from HQs yet!
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:12 AM

5. Sanders is totally attacking Trump....

 

and why wouldn't he would run on his Iraq vote? he was correct, he gave very specific reason why he voted against it and most of his talking points were accurate regarding the outcomes.

Bernie may get desperate and attack Biden more

he may, or it may go in another direction. We actually don't know.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to RazBerryBeret (Reply #5)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:17 AM

8. Why did so many Democrats fall for the Bush/Cheney lies?

 

Bernie is one of the very few who got it right. But hey, the Iraq War was "like a hundred years ago" so who cares?!
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #8)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:25 AM

9. water under the bridge...

 

and all that.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to RazBerryBeret (Reply #9)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:49 AM

16. Yeah, one of the many destroyed bridges in Iraq.

 

DU is a much different place than it was during the Bush/Cheney regime.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to RazBerryBeret (Reply #9)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:04 PM

50. Water under the bridge?

 

Trillions in expenditures, hundreds of thousands of lives lost, a security state that endures to this day in every airport search, drone strike, and civilian death on all sides is water under the bridge?

Ok then.

It's one thing to support Biden in the primaries (I don't because there are better Democratic candidates) but it's another thing to excuse away voting to authorize this historic, deadly blunder.

Votes on war and peace are always a test of conscience and character. Voting to authorize this war of choice was a clear mistake and shouldn't be minimized, given the magnitude of the error.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #8)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:27 AM

10. How about talking about the good stuff Biden did.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to katmondoo (Reply #10)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:28 AM

11. Sure, just sweep the death, destruction, and obscene amounts of money spent...

 

under the rug.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #11)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:22 AM

27. Obscene amounts of money that Bernie voted for? n/t

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to namahage (Reply #27)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:28 AM

30. Thank you!

 

Sick of the "Bernie is a peacrnik" bullshit narrative. He voted yes on many a military foray.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to John Fante (Reply #30)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:40 AM

35. How on earth did you derive that Sanders is a "peacenick"?

 

Iraq was based on lies and Sanders knew it, hence the no vote.

He also voted yes on various legislation:

1. On a bill that included funding for Hurricane Katrina relief.

2. On a bill that included an amendment he inserted for funding of the Vermont Department of Veterans Affairs to support broken, mangled troops as they returned home.

3. On a bill he co-sponsored that included massive expansion of GI Bill benefits.

4. On a bill that funded the Iraq War's end as Obama removed US troops.

You got a problem with those? You shouldn't.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #35)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:15 PM

53. Bernie also voted for military intervention for regime change in Iraq. Twice. In one year.

 

In 1998, Bernie Sanders voted in favor of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, which said: “It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime,” on which 38 members of varying ideology and party affiliation voted no.

Later that same year, Sanders also backed a resolution that stated: “Congress reaffirms that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #53)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:01 PM

74. Well now.....

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #53)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:52 PM

86. Thank you for BS' record on Voting For Regime

 

Change in Iraq, ehrnst.

In 1998, Bernie Sanders voted in favor of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, which said: “It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime,” on which 38 members of varying ideology and party affiliation voted no.

Later that same year, Sanders also backed a resolution that stated: “Congress reaffirms that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/105/hr4655/text
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #53)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:02 PM

90. So? Those weren't declarations of war.

 

The President wasn't granted authority under the ILA to use military force, although the BFEE later used one section to drum up support for invading Iraq as it lied to the world. There are other ways to effect "regime change," but war's a bipartisan racket and we gotta keep feeding the defense industry beast.

Sanders was right on his "no" vote in 2002:

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/video/flashback-rep-bernie-sanders-opposes-iraq-war


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #90)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:46 PM

115. So... 500,000 deaths over the next 2 years are 'different' because it wasn't a 'declared war."

 

Or because we're discussing a yes vote, no - TWO, that Bernie Sanders cast for military action in Iraq in 1998?

Have you had this discussion about this "difference" with someoone who lost a loved one in Vietnam?



https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2000/mar/04/weekend7.weekend9

I never hear such concern over the nuances when someone talks about Hillary's speech clarifying her intentions prior to the Iraq resolution vote.





If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #115)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:12 PM

123. No mention of "military action in Iraq in 1998".

 

As someone who lost a loved one in Vietnam, I'll be happy to discuss this.

Trying to put the invasion of Iraq on Bernie Sanders is what we in the service used to call Bull Shit. Unlike Biden and Clinton he did not vote for the 2003 invasion.

Please note this bill passed the Senate without a roll call vote but rather as a voicing of unanimous consent. Bernie, for all we know may not even had been in the chamber at the time.

Bernie Sanders is our best chance to stay out of any future wars.

Here's a summary of the bill from the website cited above.

The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 is a United States Congressional statement of policy stating that "It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq..." It was signed into law by President Bill Clinton, and states that it is the policy of the United States to support democratic movements within Iraq. The Act was cited in October 2002 to argue for the authorization of military force against the Iraqi government.

The bill was sponsored by Representative Benjamin A. Gilman (Republican, NY-20) and co-sponsored by Representative Christopher Cox (Republican, CA-47). The bill was introduced as H.R. 4655 on September 29, 1998. The House of Representatives passed the bill 360 - 38 on October 5, and the Senate passed it with unanimous consent two days later. President Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act into law on October 31, 1998.

This summary is from Wikipedia.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to rgbecker (Reply #123)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:23 PM

125. So, Bernie's two votes in 2003 were 'different' because REASONS.

 

And 500,000 dead in Iraq as a result of that vote aren't as relevant as deaths from the 2003 vote because Bernie.

And trying to equate simply pointing out his two votes for military action in Iraq in 1998 with "trying to to put the invasion of Iraq on Bernie Sanders" is what anyone, including those in service, would call Bull Shit. Or more formally, 'attacking a straw man."

Here is a summary from Wikipedia:

A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


And unlike Clinton, Bernie never expressed regret for his votes, and when pressed, tried to brush it off as "nearly unanimous" when 30 others voted no.

Having a one standard for Bernie Sanders an another for everyone else is known as a "double standard."

Here is a summary from Wikipedia:

A double standard is the application of different sets of principles for situations that are, in principle, the same, and is often used to describe freedom that is given to one party over another.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_standard
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to rgbecker (Reply #123)

Mon May 6, 2019, 12:37 AM

151. "Bernie...may not had even been in the chamber."

 

He certainly wasn't in the Senate chamber at that time--he didn't become a Senator until 2007.

Now, the House, on the other hand...

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1998/roll482.xml

FINAL VOTE RESULTS FOR ROLL CALL 482
(Republicans in roman; Democrats in italic; Independents underlined)


YEAS 360
...
Sanders


Or maybe there's a different Independent Representative named Sanders voting Yea?
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to rgbecker (Reply #123)

Mon May 6, 2019, 05:29 AM

157. BS is pro-gun, pro-Russia, voted for regime change in Iraq, and voted to fund the trillion dollar

 

military industrial complex multiple times. He's just another personally ambitious millionaire career politician.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #157)

Mon May 6, 2019, 05:39 AM

158. +1

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #53)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:07 PM

94. Interesting.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #35)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:18 PM

124. F-16 soon to be F-35 with nuclear capability.

 

Critics in and around Burlington have opposed basing the jets in Vermont in part due to some versions of the jets being able to carry nuclear weapons. Opponents argue carrying such bombs — or even storing the weapons — would make the area a target.

Col. Hank Harder, Vice Wing Commander of the 158th Fighter Wing of the Vermont Air National Guard, says the jets coming to Vermont will not carry nuclear weapons.

Harder says Department of Defense policy forbids confirming or denying the presence of nuclear weapons at any base. But he says nuclear weapons are not in the mix for the Burlington F-35 fleet.


https://www.vpr.org/post/exit-f-16s-enter-f-35s-big-change-vermont-air-national-guard#stream/0

Interesting that: Policy forbids confirming or denying...

Harder says Department of Defense policy forbids confirming or denying the presence of nuclear weapons at any base.


...When he goes on to deny the presence of nuclear weapons.

But he says nuclear weapons are not in the mix for the Burlington F-35 fleet.


War machines in VT. Have been for over 30 years.



If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #124)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:50 PM

133. Well, it seems some Senators are happy with "feeding the military industrial beast"

 

when the $$ flow into their home state, especially when they are up for re-election.

Doesn't seem to support the claim of such Senators "being the best chance to stay out of any future wars."

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #133)

Sun May 5, 2019, 06:39 PM

140. No.

 

Doesn't seem to support the claim of such Senators "being the best chance to stay out of any future wars."


It certainly doesn't.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #35)

Mon May 6, 2019, 05:17 AM

156. It's the pro-gun and pro-Russia votes that are problematic.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to namahage (Reply #27)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:38 AM

34. You have a problem with these Katrina-related and troops-supporting 'yea' votes?

 

1. On a bill that included funding for Hurricane Katrina relief.

2. On a bill that included an amendment he inserted for funding of the Vermont Department of Veterans Affairs to support broken, mangled troops as they returned home.

3. On a bill he co-sponsored that included massive expansion of GI Bill benefits.

4. On a bill that funded the Iraq War's end as Obama removed US troops.

I don't.


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #34)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:54 AM

37. You missed another piece of troop support that Bernie was responsible for.

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/bernie-sanders-loves-this-dollar1-trillion-war-machine
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to namahage (Reply #37)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:20 PM

57. Indeed. The vetting won't be squelched this time around. (nt)

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #57)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:39 PM

108. Indeed not..

 


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to namahage (Reply #37)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:38 PM

107. Thank You for that, namahage..

 

Bernie Sanders Loves This $1 Trillion War Machine

https://www.thedailybeast.com/bernie-sanders-loves-this-dollar1-trillion-war-machine

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #34)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:32 PM

128. What percentage of the overall value of those bills are the items....

 

....you pulled out of them? Are they significant parts of the bills or just things added to them as is done on most spending bills?

Or perhaps they're bills "that would have passed anyway", as we've heard in the past.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #34)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:57 PM

135. I'd love to read about those. Got any bill numbers? n/t

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to namahage (Reply #27)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:08 PM

38. an F35 in every garage lol nt

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to katmondoo (Reply #10)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:07 PM

51. seriously not being offensive.

 

but this is something we (all) need to get over. just because I say something "good" about Sanders does NOT mean that I'm diss'ing Warren or Biden or anyone. Just like IRL, i can tell my friend that I love the sweater she's wearing, that doesn't mean that I think my other friend is wearing a shitty sweater. how about we only say "good" things about all our candidates?
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to katmondoo (Reply #10)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:44 PM

113. Here ya Go, katmondoo..

 


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #8)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:16 AM

25. Easy to quarterback from up in the balcony section.

 



Ironically, that horrible Iraq vote is one reason that I'm willing to support Biden if it comes to it.

BS has always taken the easy road. No real responsibility, sitting out on the sidelines heckling those who actually have to make the hard decisions and have to face the consequences of those decisions.

See, I remember the political climate in 2002/2003 after 9/11. Even though Iraq didn't have a damn thing to do with 9/11, had actual Democratic Party LEADERSHIP refused to support that awful war, the war powers would have been given anyway, the Iraq war would have happened anyway, people would have died anyway, and the party of shrub would have trounced us even worse than they did in the 2004 elections. Even with our party working with the President we lost 4 seats in the Senate and 3 in the House. The stupid ass American public supported that stupid assed war.

So, by all means, support the balcony section heckler that made a good, ineffectual, and riskless decision. I'm in it for a real leader that made the bad, hard decision of a leadership group instead.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to Amimnoch (Reply #25)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:31 AM

31. LOL Anyone with half a brain knew warmongers Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rummy, Feith, Wolfowitz, et al...

 

were lying to the American public. Hell, the vast majority of DU knew it.
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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #31)

Sun May 5, 2019, 02:20 PM

63. the public in general didn't, apparently

 

they supported the Iraq war.
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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #31)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:18 PM

82. Irrelevant, and completely contrary to the point.

 

As the independent heckler of a small, homogeneous state that will support and reelect him with almost complete reliability, BS has the freedom to completely vote his own conscience.

Actual leadership, with the elections of so many being dependent, and the agenda of the Republican party weighing in the balance doesn’t have such freedom to do so.

Our Democratic Party leadership went with what the VAST majority of Americans wanted in that political climate at that time.

https://www.pewresearch.org/2008/03/19/public-attitudes-toward-the-war-in-iraq-20032008/



We were already the minority party in both chambers. Had those burdened with the responsibility of leadership opted to oppose shrub, 2004 would have been an absolute bloodbath for us.

Wonderful that BS got to make his ineffectual point, and hold his moral highground.. Soooo proud of him..
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Response to Amimnoch (Reply #82)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:22 PM

99. Not all Democrats fell for the BFEE lies...

 

these courageous senators voted NO:

* Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii)
* Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
* Barbara Boxer (D-California)
* Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)
* Lincoln Chaffee (R-Rhode Island)
* Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
* Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey)
* Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota)
* Dick Durbin (D-Illinois)
* Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin)
* Bob Graham (D-Florida)
* Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii)
* Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)
* Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts)
* Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont)
* Carl Levin (D-Michigan)
* Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland)
* Patty Murray (D-Washington)
* Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island)
* Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
* Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)
* Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota)
* Ron Wyden (D-Oregon)

Plus 126 Democratic congresspersons who did the right thing.

Did they all make "ineffectual" points or are you just blinded by hatred for Sanders?
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #99)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:58 PM

118. And in 1998, 30 voted against military action in Iraq..

 

Sanders supported Bill Clinton’s war on Serbia, voted for the 2001 Authorization Unilateral Military Force Against Terrorists (AUMF), which pretty much allowed Bush to wage war wherever he wanted, backed Obama’s Libyan debacle and supports an expanded US role in the Syrian Civil War.

Here’s a list of the “no” votes on the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, which Sanders, when pushed to answer questions on it, claims was "nearly unanimous." Even Hillary expressed regret for her Iraq vote in 2002. Haven't heard a peep out of Sanders in terms of regret for this vote - have you?

Did they all make "ineffectual" points or are you "just blinded" by a double standard when it comes to Sanders?

Abercrombie
Bartlett
Brown (CA)
Carson
Chenoweth
Clay
Conyers
Davis (IL)
Doggett
Everett
Ewing
Ford
Furse
Hastings (FL)
Hilliard
Hostettler
Jackson (IL)
Jefferson
LaHood
Lee
Lewis (GA)
McKinney
Miller (CA)
Mink
Paul
Payne
Pombo
Rivers
Rush
Sabo
Serrano
Skaggs
Skelton
Stark
Towns
Vento
Walsh
Waters

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to Amimnoch (Reply #25)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:46 AM

36. The bad, hard decision was the WRONG decision.

 

It appears there are no consequences for those decisions, at least politically-speaking. It was, after all, a long time ago.
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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #8)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:11 PM

40. I don't care

 

It's not relevant to me, any more than the Anita Hill hearings.
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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #8)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:42 PM

109. Bernie gets EVERYTHING right - not just the IWR - when it comes to foreign policy.

 

You can trust President Sanders not to get us into unnecessary, endless wars.


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
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Response to InAbLuEsTaTe (Reply #109)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:56 PM

134. ...

 

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Undecided

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Response to RazBerryBeret (Reply #5)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:51 PM

85. Attacking drumpf by licking him all over with praise in the statement?

 

WTF?
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Response to lark (Reply #85)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:33 PM

105. serious?

 

licking all over him?

is that what you'd say about Biden when he said he thought President Donald Trump was right to walk away from the second summit with North Korea? was that licking? or just a little stroke? WTF indeed.
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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:13 AM

7. Hey DU, the Iraq War was "like a hundred years ago"...

 

so votes don't matter! Falling for the Republican lies to get us into war, staggering amounts of money wasted, death, destruction widows turning to prostitution to survive, children scarred for life, migrant crisis, antiquities destroyed, etc. No biggie, it was "like a hundred years ago"!



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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #7)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:44 AM

14. Most people don't think that, just because one person said it.

 

It’s a pretty disgusting comment IMO.
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Response to Agschmid (Reply #14)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:51 AM

17. I'd tend to agree...

 

but this place is much different than it was during the Bush/Cheney regime so I'm not so sure.
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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #7)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:52 AM

19. It didn't work against Hillary

 

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Joe Biden

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #19)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:08 AM

22. And that speaks volumes about the American public.

 

Privileged lot that we are.
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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #22)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:11 AM

24. It also explains how folks can somehow justify in any way shape or form

 

that Darth Cheney, whose face is likely the quickest to come to mind when you think, "Iraq War", is decent. Apparently the war and any vote associated with it means jackshit. Good to know, I suppose.
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Response to theaocp (Reply #24)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:20 AM

26. Yeah, "decent" Dick Cheney with his 11% approval rating.

 

Is Biden really in touch with the American public on this one? Seems not.
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Response to theaocp (Reply #24)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:07 PM

121. It seems to be the case with such votes in 1998.

 

In 1998, Bernie Sanders voted in favor of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, which said: “It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime,” on which 38 members of varying ideology and party affiliation voted no.

Later that same year, Sanders also backed a resolution that stated: “Congress reaffirms that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."
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Response to ehrnst (Reply #121)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:11 PM

122. Are you equating those votes to Cheney's war? n/t

 

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Response to theaocp (Reply #122)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:32 PM

127. I don't know of anyone who would "equate votes to war."

 

Perhaps you typed in haste, and might want to think that over and restate that? Otherwise, that's a huge straw man you're attacking.

Here's a question for you:

Do you have an issue with Sanders votes (which he has never expressed any regret for, and mischaracterized as being "nearly unanimous) for military action in Iraq being brought up when votes for military action in Iraq are being discussed as unacceptable in POTUS candidates?

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Joe Biden

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #22)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:13 PM

41. It is a question of priorities and future

 

Americans have digested the Iraq war as a mistake already but it is not a high priority to them.

Iraq war is water under the bridge and one can never change the past. Biden's past decisions were contemporaneously supported by the American people so they don't find fault with it.

They are more attuned about what Biden can do for their lives in the future. All candidates running against Biden (except one) know this and they are focused on how they will improve the lives of the people from this moment forward.

One candidate seems to stuck with digging for skeletons in Biden's back yard and it is not working.
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Joe Biden

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #41)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:43 PM

44. 109,000+ people died in Iraq from 2003-2009.

 

Would you be willing to tell their families it’s “water under the bridge”?
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Response to Agschmid (Reply #44)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:00 PM

49. Iraq war was a major fuck-up

 

but it was supported by a large majority of the American people.

Everyone NOW knows it was a fuck up and not many today would say it was a right thing to do.

However, that is because it is hindsight. If people knew then what they know now, they wouldn't have voted for it. Not Hillary. Not Biden. Not even many republicans.

Making that decision 17 years ago paramount for the benefit of ONE candidate is wrong.
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Response to NYMinute (Reply #49)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:14 PM

52. Voting against the war was clearly warranted even in 2002.

 

There were weapons inspectors on the ground in Iraq that had found nothing and were expelled from the country to start the war.

Even Colin Powell knew the WMD allegations were nonsense.

15 million of us protested globally on the same day to make sure our voices were at least.

I joined DU in those years because of utter frustration with the foolish march to war against a nation that didn't attack us.

Awareness of the flawed case for war was certainly known to Biden, Clinton, and Kerry. They voted for it anyway.

And now there may be a third Democratic senator who showed poor judgement on this vital issue that will be our party's nominee for president.

It is what it is. But excusing that vote is a whitewash of history.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to BlueWI (Reply #52)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:15 PM

54. Hindsight is 20/20 nt

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #54)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:18 PM

81. Have you noticed that some in Congress and the Senate voted against the resolution?

 

23 Senators
133 House members

Patty Murray.
Tamny Baldwin.
Barbara Boxer.
Ted Kennedy.
Russ Feingold.
Paul Wellstone.
Elijah Cummings.
James Clyburn.
Betty McCollum.
Ron Wyden.
Sherrod Brown.
Bernie Sanders.
Jim Leach of Iowa (the only Republican I have ever voted for).

They deserve our appreciation for their vote to forestall the rush to war.

Was it 2020 hindsight that also led to their opposition?

No, it was political courage under high pressure and sound strategic thinking.

Was it 20/20 hindsight that led 15 million of us to demonstrate against the war before it began?

No, it was our recognition that peace is fragile, the rationale for war was unsound, and US inspectors were already on the ground in Iraq investigating the administration's WMD claims.

And I am not claiming to be extraordinarily insightful. It was obvious that the Bush administration was signaling its determination to invade Iraq, that as soon as the authorization was in hand, they were off to war.

Even FOX news was still fairly new at their purely propagandist approach to issues like this. But when the Times with Judith Miller amplified the false claims, another factor contributed to the rush for war. Our voices of opposition were ignored, to the detriment of all. Hundreds of thousands of people perished in a war of choice.

All that being said, Biden has my vote if he wins the nomination. But it would be foolish to ignore lessons from that time as we go forward because a similar situation may come up. And we should be open to discussing this topic as we consider which of our excellent field we will support in the primaries.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to BlueWI (Reply #81)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:20 PM

97. I get it ... when someone votes your way, it is courage

 

When someone votes differently to your liking, it is nefarious or cowardice.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to NYMinute (Reply #97)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:29 PM

145. I expressed my thoughts clearly. No need to go ad hominem

 

and project motives onto clear statements of fact and opinion.

Nefarious? That's your word. It was a significant and costly error in judgement. Nothing more and nothing less.





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Response to NYMinute (Reply #97)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:49 PM

149. Actually though, your statement about my preference

 

is correct in one sense. I do expect Democrats to vote my way on grave issues of war and peace that are as clear cut as this issue was. Otherwise, they may not get my support during a primary.

And there's nothing wrong with that.
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Response to BlueWI (Reply #52)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:56 PM

88. And what about...

 

In 1998, Bernie Sanders voted in favor of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, which said: “It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime,” on which 38 members of varying ideology and party affiliation voted no.

Later that same year, Sanders also backed a resolution that stated: “Congress reaffirms that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."




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Joe Biden

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #88)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:30 PM

146. Is the answer to every question Bernie Sanders?

 

Apparently so.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to NYMinute (Reply #49)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:45 PM

60. Great but that hardly means it's "water under the bridge".

 

IMO your comment is abhorrent.
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Response to Agschmid (Reply #60)

Sun May 5, 2019, 02:18 PM

62. I meant it as

 

"It is an issue for history books and not to bludgeon one of the candidates with."
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Response to NYMinute (Reply #62)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:17 PM

80. But the candidate is directly involved in that history.

 

Here’s the deal, it’s not going to make me not vote for Biden but I do think it’s something he should address in the primary when/if it comes up.

And I’m willing to be it will come up because one candidate voted a different way. This is what happens in primaries.
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Response to Agschmid (Reply #80)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:07 PM

93. And do you feel the same about Sanders and his votes in 1998? (nt)

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #93)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:11 PM

95. Good question, ehrnst.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #93)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:57 PM

117. I do not support Sanders, and yes he should face questions as well.

 

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Joe Biden

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #117)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:03 PM

120. I think that the defensive responses in this thread where I brought it up are telling. (nt)

 

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Joe Biden

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #120)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:36 PM

147. They sure are telling.

 

They are telling that it's a thread about Joe Biden and the IWR. And there's reason for you to be contented - up thread there's plenty of discussion of the 1998 vote, including from people who support Sanders in this primary. I don't, although Sanders' vote against the Iraq authorization was a courageous vote. I am always willing to give credit where it is due. Are you?
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Response to BlueWI (Reply #147)

Mon May 6, 2019, 06:12 AM

159. I am all about applying the same standard to all candidates .

 

And I find defending some votes because the death toll was maybe lower not to be "discussion" but rationalization for different standards being applied to one candidate.

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #159)

Mon May 6, 2019, 06:14 PM

166. If both candidates voted the same way

 

then it would make sense to apply the same standards. But the sum of their votes is different.

What you're essentially saying is that Sanders' second vote doesn't distinguish him from Biden on the Iraq issue because of Sanders' 1998 vote for the regime change resolution.

There are differences in what was proposed (open-ended regime change versus immediate war authorization) and in the context of Republican vs. Democratic administrations, but you are saying there's no distinction unless Sanders voted twice against the proposed policy.

IMO, this minimizes the importance of the 2002 vote. I don't think this serves any useful purpose. It's simple to support other candidates in 2020 (I do, you do) while still giving credit to a historically important vote (as 2002 was).

But opinions vary.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to BlueWI (Reply #166)

Tue May 7, 2019, 06:58 AM

167. No, you aren't understanding what I am saying.

 

I am responding to the blanket, black/white statements concerning politicians that "This one vote is a dealbreaker!" with no nuance, no discussion.

I will then ask why a similar vote - very, very similar vote for military action in the same country - is not a dealbreaker for another politician.

It does not minimize any vote, in fact, the blanket "all or nothing mentality" does minimize the harm of other votes.

There are differences in what was proposed (open-ended regime change versus immediate war authorization) and in the context of Republican vs. Democratic administrations, but you are saying there's no distinction unless Sanders voted twice against the proposed policy.


And the Iraq War resolution was not approving direct military action, it was authorizing it only as leverage if the UN did not act, whereas the regime change vote did.

What Sanders voting for it twice for it indicates was that it was something that he didn't regret, didn't have second thoughts about. And unlike Hillary, Sanders has never expressed regret since, and in fact, when pressed, misrepresented that is was "nearly unanimous" as an effort to defend his vote as pragmatic, when 30 people did vote against it.

Pointing out the double standard held for one candidate does not diminish the votes cast by anyone else.


If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #117)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:30 PM

126. I suggest you stop believing everything "journalist" David Sirota writes

 

Might give you a better perspective

Sirota’s deleted tweets from election night 2016




Not surprised that folks are trying to “Hillary” Biden.
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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #126)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:36 PM

129. Can't say I read his work.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #129)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:44 PM

130. You don't need to read him, because the work is pervasive anti-Biden anti-Beto hitpieces on the net.

 

We absorb those talking points thru the discourse here at DU.


In other words you don’t need to read his work to absorb his half-truth hit pieces. Someone on the Internet will be happy to provide them to you.
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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #130)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:44 PM

131. Got it.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #131)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:48 PM

132. See my full edit, just finished it

 

Hey I am a real fan of your posts in general! Always great to talk

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Undecided

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #80)

Mon May 6, 2019, 12:53 AM

152. Biden's vote needs to be discussed in a more nuanced way

 

as well as the fact that he became an upfront critic of the Iraq war.

This Mother Jones article is illuminating:

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/04/joe-biden-and-the-iraq-war-its-complicated/M
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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #152)

Mon May 6, 2019, 04:56 AM

155. Hmm links to an article about a movie director for me?

 

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Joe Biden

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #155)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:00 AM

168. That's one way to evade responding to the fact that Biden became a critic of the war.

 

Avoidance noted AGAIN.

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #152)

Mon May 6, 2019, 06:13 AM

160. Nuance is only applied to one candidate. All others are judged in good/evil no grey area terms. (nt)

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #44)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:54 PM

87. How many died in 1998?

 

In 1998, Bernie Sanders voted in favor of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, which said: “It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime,” on which 38 members of varying ideology and party affiliation voted no.

Later that same year, Sanders also backed a resolution that stated: “Congress reaffirms that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.
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Response to ehrnst (Reply #87)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:57 PM

89. 1,500 as an estimation

 

Bernie should also be asked why he supported that. I haven’t said he shouldn’t.

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #89)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:03 PM

92. Actually more than 500,00 Iraqi children are estimated to have been killed in that action.

 

But whatever the number, I just find that all the silence on his record of military votes rather interesting in all the discussions about other candidates' 2002 Iraq resolution vote.

I also no of no apology or admission of regret for that vote on his part, unlike HRC.

On the rare occasions when Sanders has been confronted about these votes, he has casually dismissed them as being “almost unanimous.”

Which as the record shows, is not true.

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #92)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:28 PM

102. Can you send the link to the number you quote?

 

I’m just curious because obviously I don’t know what I was taking about.
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Response to Agschmid (Reply #102)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:44 PM

112. Certainly:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2000/mar/04/weekend7.weekend9
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Response to ehrnst (Reply #112)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:56 PM

116. Thank you, I was pretty young back then so I don't have memories of all of it.

 

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #41)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:55 PM

47. Moreover

 

Democrats, actual Democrats, have long since come to the conclusion it was W and his cronies that are responsible for Iraq, not Democrats. That Sanders supporters here would come to the conclusion it was actually Democrats at fault for Iraq and not W is of no surprise to me.

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #47)

Sun May 5, 2019, 02:22 PM

65. Where does decency end and responsibility for the horrors of Iraq begin?

 

Cheney would like to know.
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Response to theaocp (Reply #65)

Sun May 5, 2019, 02:25 PM

67. With the people who started the war, of course.

 

Those people were not Democrats.
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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #67)

Sun May 5, 2019, 02:26 PM

68. That would make them indecent, I would imagine.

 

Perhaps the definition has changed of late.
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Response to theaocp (Reply #68)

Sun May 5, 2019, 02:27 PM

69. Who do you think is responsible for the war?

 

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #69)

Sun May 5, 2019, 02:27 PM

70. Cheney. n/t

 

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Response to theaocp (Reply #70)

Sun May 5, 2019, 02:28 PM

71. Well we agree then.

 

Good to know.
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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #22)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:16 PM

79. It says that most are not a one issue voter, and they went with the most qualified candidate

 

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primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #19)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:53 PM

46. It didn't work against both Hillary and John Kerry. nt

 

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #7)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:16 PM

55. It's hyperbole.

 

The point is pretty clearly that one event happened this week and one didn't.
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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #7)

Sun May 5, 2019, 02:21 PM

64. most of the candidates can't be judged on what they would have done

 

as they weren't in Congress at the time. It is a long time ago in that sense.
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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #7)


Response to SMC22307 (Reply #7)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:45 PM

114. The good news is we have the perfect Democratic candidate who isn't fooled

 

by RethugliKKKon lies!! Bernie rocks!!


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:30 AM

12. American can do better than that. We NEED better than that.

 

So Bernie Sanders was on ABC's "This Week" saying that Trump's face-to-face meeting with North Korea's Kim Jong Un "is the right thing to do."
American can do better than that. We NEED better than that.

I simply cannot support anyone whose world-view cannot comport with reality. We have so many other much more qualified candidates who have a much more realistic view of things like this. Those are the candidates that I'll be considering.

I'm looking for someone who's smart enough to know that there's a world of difference between taking prudent and thoughtful action (and understanding the consequences of being hasty) and the notion that "doing anything is better than doing nothing". Pie-in-the-sky foreign policy is just as bad as pie-in-the-sky domestic policy.

I'm not having any of it, thank you very much. We can do better. We must do better.
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Response to Vidal (Original post)


Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:45 AM

15. I bet Putin is smiling .....

 

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:51 AM

18. Did just that this morning on ABC

 

Called Biden his friend then attacked him.

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Joe Biden

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #18)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:55 AM

21. Maybe they can just call each other

 

decent men and we can all move on? Decency is so flexible these days.
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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #18)

Mon May 6, 2019, 12:21 AM

150. Does he really have any friends in the Senate?

 

I'd bet not.
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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:54 AM

20. From ABC News:

 


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Response to George II (Reply #20)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:25 PM

100. ..

 


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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:10 AM

23. Haha, praising Trump! Where is the crowd that comes unglued

 

when Biden says, “I like you, but “, things dug up from years ago. Here Bernie is putting down a Democrat AND praising Trump.
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Response to R B Garr (Reply #23)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:35 AM

32. Bernie is just trying to appeal to the economically anxious

 

Trump voters! There must be a lot of overlap between that group and the BernieBuster/JillNotHill demographic for Bernie to do that.
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Response to John Fante (Reply #32)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:14 PM

42. +1

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #23)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:47 PM

61. Yep

 

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primary today, I would vote for:
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Response to R B Garr (Reply #23)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:43 PM

110. That's right.. omg! Where are they?!!

 



RB
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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:25 AM

28. Just a reminder...

 

Bernie is not a Democrat.
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Response to LuvLoogie (Reply #28)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:36 AM

33. Not a peacenik either despite his kid glove treatment

 

of Russia.
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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:27 AM

29. Sanders can't seem to come up with new material.

 

He's stuck in 2016 when he had only one opponent; under that circumstance it's easy to criticize that single opponent without deviating from your script. But now there's competition from seven or eight serious candidates with different ideas and approaches to problems, so what's the plan? Most of the candidates are emphasizing the strengths of their ideas while remaining reasonably cordial toward the others. Bernie seems to lack imagination. His rhetoric is mired in the '60s and he doesn't seem to know how to emphasize the advantages of his ideas (which Warren also supports in general, but actually has plans and numbers and explanations of how to pay for it all) as opposed to the varied ideas of many, not just one, opponent. So he attacks. He's divisive and he isn't doing the party, or himself, any good.
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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:10 PM

39. Who is surprised by this?

 

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:17 PM

43. Bernie says: "vote for me because Biden voted for the Iraq War" but . . .

 

He has to do better than that.

He has to convince Democrats to support him because of his own qualities and his own proposals.

Trying to win over Democrats by attacking Democrats seems like an insane strategy for Sanders to follow.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to Vidal (Reply #43)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:30 PM

104. If that were all that SBS did - attack - then I would agree. But its not.

 

Not even close to the top of the list of things he advocates for.
I understand that all the politically hip people here are tired of the social, economic, environmental, racial justice spiel and are looking for his 'out-lier' remarks, but it really isn't going to work as a modus operendi until the other candidates start hammering away at the real problems too.
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Undecided

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:45 PM

45. Biden's Iraq vote is complicated, and he later became a critic

 

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/04/joe-biden-and-the-iraq-war-its-complicated/
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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:57 PM

48. He knows which voters he's chasing...

 

the white working class, "economically anxious" voters, who didn't mind voting for an outright racist in 2016.

Sid
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Response to SidDithers (Reply #48)

Sun May 5, 2019, 02:24 PM

66. So, Bernie is chasing racists?

 

Harsh assessment. Evidence?
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Response to theaocp (Reply #66)

Sun May 5, 2019, 02:52 PM

72. Bernie is chasing white voters, who didn't mind voting for a racist in 2016...

 

Whether that makes them racist or not is a judgement call.

Sid
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Response to SidDithers (Reply #72)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:04 PM

75. What do you think?

 

The quotation marks from your post could use some clarification.
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Response to theaocp (Reply #75)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:03 PM

91. I agree with The Rude Pundit on this one...

 

"The line between being a bigot and voting for a bigot is so thin as to be nonexistent."





Sid
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Undecided

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Response to theaocp (Reply #66)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:00 PM

73. Not racists, just people uncomfortable with voting for African Americans. n/t

 

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Undecided

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Response to namahage (Reply #73)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:05 PM

76. So, bigots, then?

 

What's the difference?
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Response to theaocp (Reply #76)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:14 PM

78. No appreciable difference, really.

 

But apparently Bernie seems to believe there is a difference:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/415705-bernie-sanders-on-close-contests-of-gillum-and-abrams-many-white-voters

“I think, you know, there are a lot of white folks out there who are not necessarily racist who felt uncomfortable for the first time in their lives about whether or not they wanted to vote for an African-American.”
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Response to namahage (Reply #78)

Sun May 5, 2019, 09:18 PM

143. IMHO, that was Bernie Sanders' (I-VT)

 

'there are good people on both sides' moment.

That's why he is tanking with P.O.C.

ONLY!!! 2019 and beyond.
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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:16 PM

56. Conveniently Sanders forgets he voted for the Iraq Liberation Act which was the precursor to

 

the IWR

However, if Sanders wants to bring this up, let’s take about his praise for Daniel Ortega, and other questionable people

How about his votes on Russia, want to talk about that Bernie, or his wishy washy votes on gun control, including voting against the Brady Bill

It is about time we start looking more closely at Sanders


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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:38 PM

58. Profoundly disappointing news.

 

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Joe Biden

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:42 PM

59. ...

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:12 PM

77. Kissing up to murderous dictators

 

is seldom the right thing to do. Attacking Joe Biden because he won't kiss up to murderous dictators is never the right thing to do.

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Joe Biden

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:30 PM

84. It's troubling. But his supporters are eating it up.

 

I don't know why. Well, I guess I do know why, but don't like the answer.

If my preferred candidates do something I don't agree with, I won't defend them. So, unless people are being obtuse on purpose, then I believe them when they rush to defend Bernie's remark about Trump.

Trump will likely start saying on the stump that this is the only good thing that Sanders has done, because even he [Sanders] agrees that, "My magnificent and beautiful North Korea policy is the best policy the planet has ever seen."

Now, you and I both know that Sanders did not say that. But he said just enough to give Trump a talking point to cover his ass on North Korea.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:18 PM

96. No one should EVER foget the Iraq War.

 

And with Biden supporting policies that will lead to a devastating and region wide spreading civil war in South America, NO ONE SHOULD FORGET the lies and subterfuge that led to such human suffering and a chaos that seems impossible to reign in.

Enough with the 'humanitarian' newspeak.
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Undecided

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:22 PM

98. Somebody should kindly remind BS that Biden is the one who voted for:

 




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Joe Biden

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Response to Cha (Reply #98)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:27 PM

101. Good God

 

I knew Bernie was soft on Putin, Russia and guns, but had no idea he voted against the fucking amber alert system. I looked it up and sure enough he did.

And there are people here who think he has the judgement to be president.
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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #101)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:35 PM

106. Yes BS has opened to door to his record being exposed..

 





Voted Against the Brady Bill 5 times.
Voted to have guns on Amtrak
Voted to have guns in national parks




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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #101)

Sun May 5, 2019, 06:03 PM

137. Maybe it was one of those situations like gun control...missing children in Vermont are different...

 

...from missing children in Chicago?
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Response to George II (Reply #137)

Sun May 5, 2019, 06:11 PM

139. Yes

 

I think that was covered in the “back to the land” movement we’ve all heard so much about lately.
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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:43 PM

111. Cheers to Bernie for the...

 

… correct vote on the Iraq War!



"Trump took on the Republican establishment, he took on the Democratic establishment, took on the media establishment and he ended up winning the election to become president of the United States. And that is an extraordinary accomplishment. And it talks about perseverance, it talks about very strong political instincts, it talks about a way to connect with people,” -- Bernie Sanders

… the quote about Trump is not the whole story... Hillary Clinton won the vote, which was an extraordinary accomplishment! Trump had "help" in getting elected... True, he did "connect with people," like racists, bigots, White Supremacists, etc...

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Response to Mike Nelson (Reply #111)

Sun May 5, 2019, 07:51 PM

141. It may not be the whole story, but it's the only one that counts

 

SBS's remarks are nothing short of fact, and it is something the Dems need to remember if they really want to win; if they really want something different than what the liar in chief consequently delivered: NOT taking on the establishment, or rather, embracing the part of the establishment that has been waging war on the environment in favor of capitalism on steriods, shaking big sticks at co-inhabitants of this planet to boost 'their' economy in weapons and minerals not yet under their control.

What Trump sold was a promise that was a lie.

SBS has, since the primaries, been calling out Trump as a pathological liar.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 09:16 PM

142. Bernie Sanders criticizes Trump all the time. NT

 

NT
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Response to Eric J in MN (Reply #142)

Sun May 5, 2019, 09:28 PM

144. Except when he's praising tRump for his

 

'perseverance' and his 'strong political instinct'.

https://nypost.com/2017/01/10/bernie-sanders-heaps-praise-on-donald-trump/

https://www.elitedaily.com/news/politics/bernie-sanders-praises-donald-trump/1747308

Kind of waters down his criticism.

ONLY!!! 2019 and beyond.


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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:42 PM

148. Let's keep it real here. Bernie rags on rump all the time. He should stick to just that. nt

 

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Mon May 6, 2019, 01:10 AM

153. And Biden actively endorsed and campaigned for a rethug

 

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Undecided

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Response to Tiggeroshii (Reply #153)

Mon May 6, 2019, 04:42 AM

154. Endorsed and campaigned? No he didn't.

 

As you know.
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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Mon May 6, 2019, 07:17 AM

161. Biden has attacked Bernie, in fact, wants to kill him because a woman Biden made

 

made uncomfortable came out with her story. Mind you, there is no proof the Sanders campaign was behind any of the accusations. But the Biden campaign went with it anyway. Likes and praises Dick Cheney "I actually like Cheney" ... I get on with him. I think he's a decent man." That's some high praise indeed.

And “shares a warm relationship” with Pence so there's that.

https://www.businessinsider.com/joe-biden-advisers-mad-bernie-sanders-team-over-allegations-report-2019-4
Axios reported on Tuesday that several people close to Biden are suspicious that the Sanders camp is "at least partly behind the anti-Biden campaign."

In addition, one of Biden's top backers believes he is still moving forward with an upcoming campaign announcement and "is ready to kill Bernie" when he jumps in the race, according to Axios.


https://www.businessinsider.com/joe-biden-dick-cheney-comments-resurface-amid-2020-campaign-2019-5
Former Vice President Joe Biden's past praise for his immediate predecessor is garnering a fair amount of negative attention just one week into his 2020 campaign.

During an event at George Washington University in October 2015, Biden said he thought former Vice President Dick Cheney is a "decent man."

"I actually like Dick Cheney, for real," Biden said at the time. "I get on with him. I think he's a decent man."


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pence-founds-his-own-vp-club-biden-cheney-n819406
An aide to Pence said the vice president doesn’t seek a signoff from Trump for his outside discussions, but given that the two speak daily, “I’m sure it wouldn’t come as a surprise to the president” that he talks with Biden and Cheney.

The aide said Pence “shares a warm relationship” with Biden, “and they’ve spoken many times, particularly on foreign affairs matters.”

The outreach between Biden and Pence flows both ways.



If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to Autumn (Reply #161)

Mon May 6, 2019, 08:00 AM

162. You just made an accusation that Biden wants to literally "kill" Sanders in your title.

 



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Response to still_one (Reply #162)

Mon May 6, 2019, 08:04 AM

163. It's not my accusation. That's exactly what Biden said according to one of his top backers.

 

There's a link in my post. It got a bit of excitement and Recs when that story broke here.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to Autumn (Reply #163)

Mon May 6, 2019, 08:14 AM

164. That is garbage, and you know it. First of all you are basing it on ONE of his unamed supporters.

 

Second it is obvious, even though the complete context isn't presented, that the implication was that the supporter was referring to beating Sanders very badly in the primaries, not literally "killing" him, but that you choose to go with the hyperbole, that so many on both sides are making here at DU is disappointing to say the least.

if you think accusing Joe Biden of literally wanting to kill Bernie Sanders will help Senator Sanders campaign, it will be interesting to see how that works out


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to still_one (Reply #164)

Mon May 6, 2019, 08:22 AM

165. Again. Not my accusation. Got quite a few recs when the story broke.

 

https://www.democraticunderground.com/128748439
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:21 AM

169. Great. Can already see us divided and losing again. Losing as in not winning in EC

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Tue May 7, 2019, 07:48 PM

170. From my twitter feed

 


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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