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Don't worry Bernie, they called me a socialist too... (Original Post) Playinghardball Aug 2015 OP
And they still do HassleCat Aug 2015 #1
An argument can be made that FDR and Joe Kennedy protected their own wealth and that of others merrily Aug 2015 #2
Ocham's razor HassleCat Aug 2015 #4
Saying "occam's razor" doesn't really resolve anything. You don't buy it; I am not sure if I do merrily Aug 2015 #5
I think that is a good point. zeemike Aug 2015 #10
Exactly. merrily Sep 2015 #19
I find that hard to believe about FDR too zeemike Sep 2015 #21
Funny thing about conserving national parks. merrily Sep 2015 #22
Well it is true, those programs benefited business too. zeemike Sep 2015 #24
Thanks, zeemike. That means a lot because I respect your views a lot. merrily Sep 2015 #25
The feeling is mutual. zeemike Sep 2015 #26
That's always nice. P.S. merrily Sep 2015 #27
Exactly. "To save capitalism from itself." Fantastic Anarchist Aug 2015 #13
I always wondered if the Bonus Army scared them. merrily Aug 2015 #15
There's a good argument to be made that there would have been a revolution if more people had merrily Sep 2015 #23
I thought your OP was going to contain a depiction of Jesus! merrily Aug 2015 #3
Me, too Demeter Aug 2015 #7
I have had enough of this 35 year GOP, dlc war on the New Deal. 35 fucking years too long. Dont call me Shirley Aug 2015 #6
Bernie's had enough of it, too. And then some. merrily Aug 2015 #8
I think many of us have had enough of it RoccoR5955 Aug 2015 #11
The facist bush family de-evolution has failed miserably for the 99%. It has been wildly Dont call me Shirley Aug 2015 #18
I think the only thing that comes from writing your legislators is to provide jobs for merrily Sep 2015 #20
They stil do JHB Aug 2015 #9
Keep reminding us ALL -- EVERYWHERE AikidoSoul Aug 2015 #12
Kicked and recommended to the Max! Enthusiast Aug 2015 #14
Lol, Babel_17 Aug 2015 #16
Not Understanding Meaning And Context colsohlibgal Aug 2015 #17
 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
1. And they still do
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 03:07 PM
Aug 2015

Republicans like to invoke the name of FDR the same way they invoke the name of Thomas Jefferson. They can find a way to cite something either one of the great men said or did to support or oppose almost anything they want. Of course, I understand why they turn to FDR for inspiration, since their own presidents since FDR have been rather uninspiring. Deep down, they hate FDR for being a class traitor and implementing socialist programs that gave people jobs and allowed the government to build things.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
2. An argument can be made that FDR and Joe Kennedy protected their own wealth and that of others
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 03:19 PM
Aug 2015

from a revolution via public resources. So, not a traitor to his class at all.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
4. Ocham's razor
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 03:29 PM
Aug 2015

I know some people argue FDR saved the wealthy from a revolution by placating poor and working people. I don't really buy it. For years, communists and socialists were held at bay by sending federal troops into the streets to shoot them down. The courts were used to declare union activities illegal. And so on. It would have been far easier for FDR to continue such activities, and he would have faced little opposition in Congress. The Great Depression, which was very good for the ultra-wealthy, would have continued and deepened until we entered WWII.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
5. Saying "occam's razor" doesn't really resolve anything. You don't buy it; I am not sure if I do
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 03:32 PM
Aug 2015

or not. It's a matter of opinion.



It would have been far easier for FDR to continue such activities,


Easier for the short sighted, sure. It was easier for the Tsars not to feed the peasants, too. And for the King of France and Marie Antoinette. It was also easier for George III to continue to stonewall the colonists. However, that kind of callousness has its risks. And what seems easier and more profitable short term in hindsight proves to have been folly.

The Great Depression, which was very good for the ultra-wealthy, would have continued and deepened until we entered WWII.


Or there would have been a revolution. Perhaps FDR and Joe Kennedy and others like them did not want to take that risk.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
10. I think that is a good point.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 05:09 PM
Aug 2015

And in fact FDR said as much...he saved them from the folly of their own greed.
Perhaps he understood history better than the !% did...when people are hungry and want bread you don't tell them to eat cake.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
19. Exactly.
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 06:52 PM
Sep 2015

The Russian revolutions did not succeed until the military, returned from World War I, decided to join the peasants. That was 1917. Only 12 years later, the stock market crashed and the Dust Bowl was exacerbating matters.

The Bonus Army had already marched on Washington while Hoover was in office. Hoover and McArthur took a hard line with them. The similarities had to have occurred to someone. I am not sure if it was FDR himself though. I don't know if it is true or not, but I saw a PBS program that said he had campaigned to the right of Hoover. I find that extremely difficult to believe. I cannot imagine those people I see in photos, standing on bread lines in their Sunday best, or the Grapes of Wrath farmers, deciding to elect the guy who campaigned furthest to the right. If that was true, though then someone clued in FDR between election day and Inauguration Day.

Meanwhile: bread lines. Bread and circus was how the Romans kept their 99% from rising up. Supposedly, Marie Antoinette was told the people were hungry and had no bread. She supposedly replied, "Then let them eat cake." Revolution ensued. (Of course, I am sure this is the primary grades version.) So, in the Depression, they had bread lines. Later, we had surplus foods and farm subsidies. Now we have SNAP and farm subsidies. Is it compassion, or the example of the French Revolution and the Russian Revolutions? I don't know, but look how little we've always settled for. The tighter they squeeze us, the more we need that daily ration of bread, the more we will give up to get it.

That is how it is all starting to look to me, anyway.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
21. I find that hard to believe about FDR too
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 08:49 PM
Sep 2015

Because within months of his assuming the office he created the CCC which was a smashing success and took millions off of the streets and put them to work doing conservation projets...hardly a right wing program.
If you have never seen a program on the CCC it is well worth watching, and shows what can be done if there is a president with the will to do it.

The problem we have in terms of a revolution is that we are a weak people now...weak in spirit and weak in moral principles, and find it hard to do anything as long as we have a TV and some junk food...Bread and circus.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
22. Funny thing about conserving national parks.
Sun Sep 6, 2015, 04:50 AM
Sep 2015

Railroad magnates had laid all this track, acquired all these railroad cars, hired all these porters, etc.. They wanted to make more money out of that stuff than they were already making. So, they wanted a national park system. That way, ordinary people might be able to afford a vacation consisting of a train ticket to a national park that was distant from their city tenement, where they could have free admission and camp out relatively inexpensively. A destination vacation for relatively poor people.

The taxpayer would acquire and maintain the parks, thereby enabling the railroad magnates to sell more railroad tickets. And poorer people in cities (though not the poorest) would be able to have a family vacation in fresh air, amid nature. Railroad companies would publicize the national parks and also invest in them so they could sell more railroad tickets. Win win win. So, national parks were indeed a form of corporate welfare, but one that did benefit "the working stiff," or at least the working stiffs who could afford railroad tickets for the family. (Circus?)

I'm guessing that the lumber/paper industries loved national parks, too. So, whom did the Conservation Corps benefit most, aside from the people who collected paychecks for the actual conservation work? Hard to say.

A lot of things FDR did via his New Deals benefited business, aka the economy, as much or more than they benefited the rest of America. The banks had gone bust. People took what was left of their money out of banks and stuck it under the mattress. How to get people who had been so badly burned to have the confidence to bring their money back to the banks? Create the FDIC.

Wall Street had taken the rest of their money. How to get people who had been so badly burned to buy stocks again? create the SEC to regulate sales of stock and other securities, change the bankruptcy laws to investigate companies that had gone belly up to make sure the officers and directors had not pocketed the money. Pass Glass Steagall to help ensure that the banks remained solvent, etc.

The national highway system that FDR wanted, but did not get around to, would provide construction jobs at the start, but would eventually sell cars and gasoline, as well as enabling the working stiff and his family to see the USA in their Chevrolet. (And probably created the motel industry, I'm guessing.)

So, a lot of FDR's New Deals were also corporate welfare, but benefited many, many ordinary people enough as well as benefiting the very rich and powerful.

What FDR and Joe Kennedy seemed to get was that, be it the banks or the railroads or the stock market, the consumer is a very important part of economic recovery. And the stuff they and the other New Dealers did was genius and, as you pointed out, incredibly rapid. However, also, recovery was easier then because the US had, compared to today, a relatively self-contained economy.

In a global economy, the American worker/consumer is not the be all and end all, either on the producing goods for sale end or the buying goods end. (Truman and Eisenhower had it even easier, because World War II had substantially knocked out two of our largest pre-war competitors on the production end, Germany and Japan and Eisenhower enjoyed the income from FDR's war tax without having to spend to fight any major war. So, "Ike" looked like a genius.)

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
24. Well it is true, those programs benefited business too.
Sun Sep 6, 2015, 09:16 AM
Sep 2015

And you would think that the elite would understand that.
But I think the philosophy of Ayn Rand has infected their brains to the point that the logic of it fails them.

And you are so right about the global econimy...they no longer need or care about the US consumer...they have the world as a market.

The points you make are all valid ones.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
27. That's always nice. P.S.
Sun Sep 6, 2015, 10:01 AM
Sep 2015

I just saw a photo of JFK gazing at a bust of FDR and that caused me to remember the following, which is relevant to the conversation you and I have been having on this thread:

On the 50th anniversary of JFK's assassination, MTP aired a tape of his appearance on MTP while he was running for either the Presidential nomination or the general. A member of the panel asked JFK why anyone concerned about the economy would vote for a Democrat. JFK responded to the effect that Democrats had saved US capitalism.

That may not be how FDR saw it, but I would bet JFK was echoing how Joe Kennedy saw his own work on the New Deals: We either do this, rich guys, or communists take over. Pick one.


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Fantastic Anarchist

(7,309 posts)
13. Exactly. "To save capitalism from itself."
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 05:52 PM
Aug 2015

There's a good argument to be made that there would have been a revolution had he not co-opted a lot of the rhetoric.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
15. I always wondered if the Bonus Army scared them.
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 04:57 AM
Aug 2015

The Russian Revolutions failed until the military, back from World War I, joined the peasants.
.
The way the Bonus Army was treated by generals was shameful. When they went home and talked to their fellow vets, who knows what may have been fomented? And heaven knows, between the Dust Bowl, bank failures and losing money in the stock market, people were suffering. And, they had before them the example of the Russians, not even 20 years earlier. (Look what the example of the American Revolution led to all over the world, starting with France!)

I saw a PBS program once that said FDR had actually campaigned more conservatively than Hoover. Then, once he took office, he seemed to have changed his mind. I am not sure I believe that. Campaigning after the Crash on more of the same would have been enough of an obstacle to election. I don't know if I believe FDR would have been elected at that point campaigning on even less of the same. I would love to know if it were true, though.

I had also seen once online that Joe Kennedy had said that he would gladly give half of everything he had in order to be able to keep the rest in peace. And that started me thinking. A couple of years later, I tried to google it so I could quote it, but I could not find it again.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
23. There's a good argument to be made that there would have been a revolution if more people had
Sun Sep 6, 2015, 04:56 AM
Sep 2015

starved to death and the living did not see any hope for the future.

Hope for the future is the stock in trade of the politician, esp. the politician asking America to vote for something other than continuing the status quo.

FDR: Happy days are here again! We have nothing to fear but fear itself.

Obama Hope and change

Bernie Sanders There's nothing a great nation cannot do.

Dont call me Shirley

(10,998 posts)
6. I have had enough of this 35 year GOP, dlc war on the New Deal. 35 fucking years too long.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 04:06 PM
Aug 2015

Bernie for President. Followed by a Progressive majority in both houses. And strip the USSC of powers they stole which do not belong to them.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
11. I think many of us have had enough of it
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 05:17 PM
Aug 2015

And long before the 35 years has passed.
I thought we had enough of it when Raygun started squashing unions.
I thought we had enough of it when Raygun refused to fund early AIDS research, calling AIDS a "gay cancer," which led to the death of my younger brother.
I thought we had enough of it when Raygun funded the overthrow of many governments in South and Central America.

I have spoken out, been to protests, written my legislators and been active for all that time and longer.
I think that the best hope we have to change this around is Bernie. And hope for long coat tails in his win for president. We need to take back the House and Senate, as well as the Presidency, and then I might think it over. Only not with a corporatist who will not put those responsible for the "great recession" in jail. We also need someone to stand up to all this money in politics. It is there that I think that only Bernie can help us lead the way, to organize a new movement to a new revolution in the US. The Raygun revolution has been a failure, and we all need to change that.

Dont call me Shirley

(10,998 posts)
18. The facist bush family de-evolution has failed miserably for the 99%. It has been wildly
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 04:22 PM
Aug 2015

successful for the oligarch fascists.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
20. I think the only thing that comes from writing your legislators is to provide jobs for
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 07:01 PM
Sep 2015

people who have to make sure mail going to government officials does not contain anthrax.

For their sakes, keep wriiting. However, the notion that your communicating with, say, Issa or Reid is going to get either of them to behave/vote differently, is one that is a joke, albeit one that our elected officials have carefully nutured.

Just one example, have you ever heard or read of any of them telling you to contact them to tell them what you want or don't want? Nope, It's always "contact our opposition and tell them such and such."

Another: I don't think any group of elected officials was contacted more about any issue than Senators, Representatives and the White House were contacted about a strong public option. How did that work out for all those doing the contacting?

I guess in theory, one can imagine that the Silent Majority got their way. And I do mean "imagine."

colsohlibgal

(5,275 posts)
17. Not Understanding Meaning And Context
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 02:37 PM
Aug 2015

Just as people misinterpret the Second Amendment they confuse socialism with totalitarianism.

Ah the bite of the dumbing down in America.

The rich hate socialism because horrors, they may have to struggle by with 300 million rather than 500 million.

I'm not wealthy but I am comfortably middle class. I think I ought to be taxed at a slightly higher rate that one making a bit less. And so on up and down the various taxable incomes.

We had democratic socialism from the middle 30s till Reagan. Our income inequality has picked up steam on the years since, to where we are now.

We need another Roosevelt; and people going back to voting for their own self interest.

Go Bernie!

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