Elliot Rodger is a horrific example of what we here

[boston bean]

have been pointing out for the past 2+ years, here in this group.

MRA groups and their talking points (whether identifying as one or not), the sense of entitlement to women, the false equivalencies regarding sexism and misogyny to misandry. The denial of any societal and institutional impact of these attitudes. In essence how they play into the crimes domestic violence, rape and assault, street harassment. The denial of all of this on this website links back directly to the sick thinking many have about women and their place in society. How Elliot Rodger felt. We see it in the comments, the similarity to what we read on sites where men decry feminism as misandry, woman hate, denial of the patriarchy. Where Elliot Rodger found like minded people on the internet.... MRA sites and PUAhate sites. The absolute sick and twisted thinking that we have been trying to get people to acknowledge and understand. Wondering why people couldn't see it. How it permeates our culture and society and our justice system and justice for victims. I understand Elliot Rodger had issues, but the culture of misogyny cannot be ignored. He used that to justify his actions. What he was saying and how he was feeling is what you read on these anti woman, anti feminist sites. We have been raising our voices, voicing our concern. I'm glad to have raised my voice with you all. I doubt that this will really change some attitudes. It is so engrained in our culture. But one things for sure. Never speaking up about it won't help to right the wrong.

[chervilant]

1. The sexism and misogyny

I've personally witnessed on this liberal website is both astonishing and disheartening. I have noticed that those who respond most derisively are defensive about their own (denied) patriarchal privileges.

[boston bean]

2. It creeps and seeps in everywhere.

I saw someone post that if there was a woman admin here, might things be different? I would like to think so, but I have witnessed to many woman also buying this crap. We would need an actual feminist admin who can recognize this.

[seabeyond]

13. i was thinking the same reading that. yes. nt

[theHandpuppet]

3. I think it's getting worse, too

I have no idea why so many of them seem drawn to DU unless it's their version of stalking. I've also noticed that threads and posts that would have been deleted or locked not that long ago are allowed to stand, whilst women who defend themselves against these attacks find their posts locked. It makes me question just how much longer DU can make a claim to be a progressive forum.

[hlthe2b]

9. "noticed that threads and posts that would have been deleted or locked not that long ago are allowed

--indeed. I've been here since DU's inception. There is NO doubt in my mind that this is the case.

Look at the crap being posted and allowed to stand at the other website -- and which is also coming over here. In fact I recognize posters there, especially the pro-gun, anti-women, and homophobic types, who I strongly suspect are coming back over here to post similar posts. The writing style and content is simply too similar to be coincidence. I fear administration has opened the floodgates to take BOTH websites in a very unpleasant direction. There is a reason contentious forums need moderators. Even HuffPO-- with their ridiculous experiments in forced identification of commenters-- has never done away with moderators.

[theHandpuppet]

15. I also suspect that is the case

I was extremely wary when the other website was created and frankly, find no reason to go there (and haven't). But it's either an amazing coincidence that the anti-woman vitriol is spilling over on DU, or evidence that there was an undercurrent of it on DU all along that simply became emboldened by the other site.

[seabeyond]

17. i was there the first couple days, and saw what it was. a place to say whatever ugly,

specifically about hof.

not only every troll that is continually kicked off du, but men here that get away saying so much shit, and sometimes do not get away with it.

it was clear what was going to happen. it really has changed the feel of du, since i came back from my last time out.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

24. The latest Hope Hoops Reincarnation is happily participating over there and is, of course,

Hail Fellow Well Met ...

it is like a class reunion over there.

but, what really gets me, is the Admin are not even making money off the filth over there. It is allowed to happen for free.

There is no cost to join and the ads are easily hidden.

How else does that Admin rationalize allowing it to continue if it is not also their own ideology?

Their silence on the matter is deafening.

[Squinch]

4. Sadly though, boston, there are some here for whom this

incident, a tragedy that is obviously directly related to misogyny and misogynistic ideals, is not proof of the damage those ideals can do.

Instead, some here are using this to actually FURTHER the women-hating talk by suggesting that Rodger's motivations are understandable and they are the fault of the women who wouldn't sleep with him. These posters say that it was caused because Rodger was "lied to" because men are socialized to try to be "nice" to women and even when they are "nice" women aren't required to sleep with them.

[boston bean]

5. Yeah, I saw on guy testifying that not being nice anymore

has helped him with his relationship and sexual encounter status.

I'm like WTF? Riiiiiiiiiiiggggghhhhhttttt. Believe it or not brother, women can smell those tactics a mile away. Any guy just looking for sex and no relationship is going to have a hard time in relationships. No one likes being felt of as a piece of meat to be consumed in relationships, as if that is all that matters. It's actually a big red flag waving in our faces to back the fuck away!

[Squinch]

6. Yep. And this whole thing about this label "nice guy." "Nice guy" has become just a

euphemism for one tactic men use to get women to sleep with them.

If a man truly cares for a woman he doesn't act like a nice guy. He just is nice to her. As she is to him. This idea that men have been tricked into being "nice" and are now mad because it doesn't make women sleep with them is just insane.

We are all socialized to be "nice." It's how we can all live together. Men and women. Men in our culture are socialized not to eat bugs. Do they think that entitles them to sex too?

In the same thread I think you saw that, there was a post about a woman who chose a man who the poster thought was bad to her. The poster took that choice she made as a personal insult. They really seem not to understand that it isn't all about them.

[AtheistCrusader]

18. Holy shit.

Please direct me to said pieces of shit. I feel the need to vent today.
Tell me people are not posting that horseshit here at DU

[seabeyond]

25. an Op. but we are hearing it on about all the posts of this guy. one way or another.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4995511

[MannyGoldstein]

7. Do you think that being hearing-voices psychotic might have been a contributing factor? nt

[boston bean]

8. Do you think that culture had anything to do with his reasoning?

Hell, I see that shit posted on MRA sites all frickin day long. It's is almost an exact regurgitation.

You miss the point maybe. You refuse to look at anything except from your small personal point of view and refuse to look at the bigger picture.

I suggest you read my OP again, and try to determine the answer to your question for yourself.

[hlthe2b]

10. Manny, mental illness can make one even more prone to extremist messages

No one is saying mental illness (and the extreme availability of guns) are not at issue as WELL.

Our history is replete with mass killers motivated by the hate and bigotry that permeates society at some level. Many of them were likewise mentally ill.


I fully want to address the problem of guns in this society. AND the lack of adequate and effective mental health care in this society. But, we ALSO have to address the issue of unbridled and increasing hate directed at women and other groups in this society.

[1StrongBlackMan]

12. Thank you. +1,000 ...

Whenever a white male does a horrific act, we immediately seize on the mental illness aspect, in that it makes it an individual thing and allows us to ignore the hate and bigotry that permeates society.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. Yep, they get the idea *from* somewhere.

[redqueen]

28. This. nt

[seabeyond]

16. do you think this comment has anything to do with the OP. we are talking about how the last

couple years we have discussed this issue, and the results we would see.

a lo and behold, we are confronted with exactly what we have been saying for a while. including the man that has the issues to the point of ending this in death.

your post is irrelevant. and your irrelevance is allowed in gd. not here.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

19. rationalization (instead of justification) to clarify the terminology being used in the OP =

In psychology and logic, rationalization (also known as making excuses[1]) is a defense mechanism in which perceived controversial behaviors or feelings are justified and explained in a seemingly rational or logical manner in order to avoid any true explanation, and are made consciously tolerable – or even admirable and superior – by plausible means.[2] Rationalization encourages irrational or unacceptable behavior, motives, or feelings and often involves ad hoc hypothesizing. This process ranges from fully conscious (e.g. to present an external defense against ridicule from others) to mostly unconscious (e.g. to create a block against internal feelings of guilt).

People rationalize for various reasons. Rationalization may differentiate the original deterministic explanation of the behavior or feeling in question.[3][4] Sometimes rationalization occurs when we think we know ourselves better than we do. It is also an informal fallacy of reasoning.[5]

more at link =
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_%28making_excuses%29

[AtheistCrusader]

20. I'm sure it was. but plenty of people think like that guy did, and don't lash out.

That guy was a perfect storm of problems, but I hope you don't think that him surrounding himself with MRA's, pick-up artists and that sort of crowd, didn't influence his decision to externalize and attack.

Those people spew poison 24-7. Sometimes, the poison takes.

[nomorenomore08]

36. "Those people spew poison 24-7. Sometimes, the poison takes."

Thank you. This needs to be repeated as much as possible.

[tea and oranges]

21. Point of Contrast

In the Mideast there are suicide bombers. Do we ever inquire if the bombers are mentally ill? No, we assume it's their ideology.

Here we have suicidal gunners. Why do we assume it's mental illness & not ideology?

[AtheistCrusader]

23. I agree. Once, my father expressed 'if I can't have you, no one will' to my mother.

Fortunately he never acted on it. But that shit was common where he came from. (NW Montana)

He held a 'suicide-by-cop' classmate of his in uncomfortably high regard.
Many of his friends are the sort of 'gentleman' that treats women like property.


I don't doubt that cultural ideology plays into it. From the ground up. There are symptoms all around us, even in grade school, in the ways society treats the genders differently.

Pervasive, evil shit. Society just hasn't connected the dots yet.

[redqueen]

29. Society just hasn't connected the dots yet, you're right...

but we are at a critical point.

More and more people are starting to see it. And social media is a big reason why the increase has grown as fast as it has.

[seabeyond]

33. my oldest son and i talking today. he was talking around the issue and couldnt quite get the words.

intellectually people get it. it is taking that extra step. and that is letting go of the entitlement and privilege that the very best of men, in all their support, still cannot readily let go of. they are not hurting women. they are supporting women. but only to that line.

cause they need the conditioning that still is indicative of all that makes them a woman.

what a woman is not

now... from the other side. you never hear the need for women to repeatedly, constantly demand, insist, yell and whine, that a woman is all that a man is not.

for us. that would be a huge ass, ... wha?????

[LanternWaste]

37. Did those same voices contribute to the rape-fantasy posted some weeks back?

Did those same voices contribute to the rape-fantasy posted some weeks back, or may we presume that often, mental illness is not required to posses, and then act on one's own rage?

[1StrongBlackMan]

11. Why are you ...

trying to divide DU?

These posts only serve the 1% as they are a distraction!

{Those that are familiar with me, know I am being sarcastic; but for others ... }

[wryter2000]

27. LOL

I was really steaming up before I saw it was you.

I think it bears repeating that many of the men on DU understand the problem of misogyny better than some of the women do.

[redqueen]

30. I'd say *some* of the men understand it better than *many* of the women...

but yeah, it's a daunting problem either way.

[seabeyond]

34. bears repeating that many of the men on DU understand the problem of misogyny better than some of th

yup

[1StrongBlackMan]

35. I doubt there is a man ...

That understands it better ... though there are those that would acknowledge it sooner because doing so would not cause us to be labeled the whining women.

[Squinch]

32. Shhhhh! 1SBM! You are going to give away our nefarious plan to divide DU. We told you at

the secret "Let's divide DU" meeting that this was a secret plan!!!!

[ismnotwasm]

14. Yup

Last edited Mon May 26, 2014, 01:21 PM - Edit history (2)

Arguing 'core' causes, and deflecting it away from misogyny has gone beyond ridiculous. Why all the squirming? And stupendously stupid arguments.

The guy hated women. He hated women because he felt sexually rejected. He felt sexually rejected because he also felt sexually entitled. He had access to guns, sure. So do I. And what ever synaptic disturbance he had doesn't change the initial fact that he found permission to hate women and kill them he found just the right line of bullshit to support his feelings-- MRA hate sites.

And he is just the most dramatic, most recent symptom of what happens every day around the world. Acid thrown in faces. Women stabbed or shot to death by partners. Serial Killers-- while not exclusive to women of course, many of them expressed their misogyny through killing specific types of women.

The MRA ideology has just coalesced all the hate, the anger.

[seabeyond]

26. this is a very good post that should reach the 6th grade level thinking. dot to dot.

very good. thanks.

[redqueen]

31. Exactly. We have been trying to raise awareness about this here for years.

Which is why anyone who starts going on about 'man hating' in here really sets my radar off.