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Mon Apr 8, 2013, 08:51 AM

 

When Men on the Left Refuse to See Their Sexism




A couple of weeks ago, I came across an article on Vice that was oddly titled, “You’re a Pussy If You Think There’s a War on Men.” It seemed clear that the author, Harry Cheadle, was referring to an awful “reverse sexist” and anti-feminist article about “The War on Men,” which asserts that women are to blame for the “dearth of good men” and must “surrender to their nature” while letting “men surrender to theirs.” Cheadle writes in defense of feminism and exposes the absurdity of claiming that men are “oppressed” by women. While I agree with his arguments that men need to stop blaming and fearing women, the sexist use of the word “pussy” in his title couldn’t be overlooked. After a brief conversation with friends who also found it offensive, I decided to write an e-mail to the author. I expressed overall support for his post and agreed that men need to be held accountable for their sexism, but I also pointed out that using the word “pussy” as a slur to characterize men as “cowardly” and “weak” is still misogynistic because it relies on degrading a woman’s body. It reinforces the sexist logic that being called a woman or, in this case, a body part of a woman, is always negative, demeaning, and shameful. It reminds us that in order for men to feel truly insulted, they must be compared to women because women, as heteropatriarchy teaches us, are weaker and inferior to men. I mentioned in my e-mail that I had no problem with calling men out on their laziness, lack of accountability, and insecurities. However, using the word “pussy” to describe their fear of women is counter-productive and perpetuates sexist attitudes.

Just got an email from someone who A) assumed I was an ally in the “feminist struggle” B)Took issue with my use of the word “pussy” in my article “You’re a Pussy if You Think There’s a War on Men” and C) informed me that “the term is not only misogynistic, but also inaccurate since the vagina is actually quite tough, not weak.” asldkfjalsjf adlsj foiasj doia e

When it was asked on the comment thread about whether or not he identified as an ally, Cheadle responded, “I just hate whiners and knee-jerk anti-feminists. I don’t really feel that I’m a part of the whole feminist enterprise, and I don’t really want to be.”


I share the above as an example of something I want to discuss in a broader context: sexism and misogyny from men in Leftist spaces and their refusal to hold themselves accountable, even when they are called out on it. What does it mean when a man speaks in defense of feminism, but then, after being informed of his sexism, rejects being an ally in order to absolve himself of any accountability? What are the implications for women who self-identify as feminist when men can easily reject feminism or disassociate from it to excuse and normalize their own sexism? In this post, I will discuss how this refusal of accountability contributes to violence against women, beginning with the usage of misogynistic language, then addressing the various manifestations of sexist oppression, and concluding with points on doing work to end this violence.


1. Misogynistic Language

Whether we are men who self-identify as anti-racist, advocate against homophobia, hold leadership positions in radical movements, rightly express outrage against right-wing misogynists and patriarchy at large, write articles that condemn all forms of injustice, or all of the above, none of this gives us a free pass on sexism, including sexist language. Gendered insults like “pussy,” “cunt,” “bitch,” “slut,” “whore,” etc. are so normalized and acceptable that we hear them in classrooms, workplaces, activist groups, and from our friends and colleagues. In mainstream media, the frequent and increased use of the “b” word on prime-time TV shows over the past decade only reinforces this acceptability. Even in popular video games like Batman: Arkham City, women characters like Catwoman and Harley Quinn are repeatedly called the “b” word by both good and bad male characters (and when women gamers address sexism in gaming, many men respond by trivializing the slurs and making misogynistic attacks). The pervasiveness and normalization of misogynistic language is not simply limited to particular movies, games, songs, or novels, but rather reflective of the sexist and patriarchal values that shape society. These sexist values, as bell hooks explains, are “created and sustained by white supremacist capitalist patriarchy.” There is a long violent history of these words being used to shame, exploit, persecute, rape, and murder women, especially women of color, who face racism and misogyny simultaneously.

*

2. Men on the Left Perpetuating Sexist Oppression

In addition to misogynistic language, sexual harassment, rape, and the silencing of women is disturbingly common in Leftist spaces. In a hostile white supremacist and heteropatriarchal climate where many women, especially women of color, cannot call the police because they do not want to strengthen the state or be further victimized by it, working collectively against misogyny and gender violence within activist movements is crucial. If a male activist threatens a woman, or follows her home, or sexually harasses her in a meeting or a rally, or tries to silence and shame her, or rapes her, this man must be held accountable. What’s disturbing is how white men and men of color appoint themselves as “leaders” and use their “activist credibility” or “celebrity” status to hide and excuse their own sexism. On one hand, there are male activists who reject feminism, as discussed above, but then there are men who consciously insert themselves into feminist discourse and assert authority over it. Hugo Schwyzer, for instance, persistently defines himself as a “male feminist,” yet doesn’t see the harm he causes when dismissing his history of engaging in sexual relations with students or writing about how he almost murdered his ex-girlfriend and then made himself the “hero” for not following through with it. Angus Johnston of Student Activism describes this crime as an act of gendered violence and explains that “in all his (Schwyzer’s) writing about this act he has never addressed its implications for his feminism — the feminism he professed when he committed the crime, or the feminism he professes today.”

There were men like this in various organizations I worked with. The one who called his girlfriend a bitch in front of a group of youth of color during a summer encuentro we were hosting. The one who sexually harassed a queer Chicana couple during a trip to México, trying to pressure them into a threesome. The guys who said they would complete a task, didn’t do it, brushed off their compañeras’ demands for accountability, let those women take over the task, and when it was finished took all the credit for someone else’s hard work. The graduate student who hit his partner—and everyone knew he’d done it, but whenever anyone asked, people would just look ashamed and embarrassed and mumble, “It’s complicated.” The ones who constantly demeaned queer folks, even people they organized with. Especially the one who thought it would be a revolutionary act to “kill all these faggots, these niggas on the down low, who are fucking up our children, fucking up our homes, fucking up our world, and fucking up our lives!” The one who would shout you down in a meeting or tell you that you couldn’t be a feminist because you were too pretty. Or the one who thought homosexuality was a disease from Europe.
Yeah, that guy.


3. Accountability

http://muslimreverie.wordpress.com/2012/12/22/when-men-on-the-left-refuse-to-see-their-sexism/

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Reply When Men on the Left Refuse to See Their Sexism (Original post)
seabeyond Apr 2013 OP
In_The_Wind Apr 2013 #1
seabeyond Apr 2013 #3
In_The_Wind Apr 2013 #5
sigmasix Apr 2013 #2
seabeyond Apr 2013 #4
theKed Apr 2013 #27
seabeyond Apr 2013 #28
theKed Apr 2013 #30
seabeyond Apr 2013 #32
MadrasT Apr 2013 #48
seabeyond Apr 2013 #50
MadrasT Apr 2013 #51
seabeyond Apr 2013 #53
MadrasT Apr 2013 #49
ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #60
sigmasix Apr 2013 #63
seabeyond Apr 2013 #65
LanternWaste Apr 2013 #132
boston bean Apr 2013 #6
chervilant Apr 2013 #8
JustAnotherGen Apr 2013 #26
redqueen Apr 2013 #37
seabeyond Apr 2013 #38
JustAnotherGen Apr 2013 #40
whathehell Apr 2013 #57
Dark n Stormy Knight Apr 2013 #84
seabeyond Apr 2013 #86
Dark n Stormy Knight Apr 2013 #129
chervilant Apr 2013 #7
Soundman Apr 2013 #9
seabeyond Apr 2013 #10
Soundman Apr 2013 #14
seabeyond Apr 2013 #15
JustAnotherGen Apr 2013 #29
sufrommich Apr 2013 #106
niyad Apr 2013 #35
seabeyond Apr 2013 #36
JustAnotherGen Apr 2013 #41
MadrasT Apr 2013 #42
niyad Apr 2013 #46
seabeyond Apr 2013 #43
niyad Apr 2013 #47
mercuryblues Apr 2013 #52
sufrommich Apr 2013 #107
niyad Apr 2013 #45
BainsBane Apr 2013 #70
niyad Apr 2013 #44
whathehell Apr 2013 #58
niyad Apr 2013 #59
whathehell Apr 2013 #67
BainsBane Apr 2013 #71
whathehell Apr 2013 #93
BainsBane Apr 2013 #95
whathehell Apr 2013 #123
BainsBane Apr 2013 #125
whathehell Apr 2013 #130
BainsBane Apr 2013 #69
Scootaloo Apr 2013 #77
seabeyond Apr 2013 #79
BainsBane Apr 2013 #98
MadrasT Apr 2013 #11
whathehell Apr 2013 #55
quinnox Apr 2013 #12
seabeyond Apr 2013 #13
boston bean Apr 2013 #17
seabeyond Apr 2013 #18
whathehell Apr 2013 #54
Soundman Apr 2013 #19
boston bean Apr 2013 #21
seabeyond Apr 2013 #22
MadrasT Apr 2013 #23
BainsBane Apr 2013 #83
BainsBane Apr 2013 #85
MadrasT Apr 2013 #16
seabeyond Apr 2013 #20
redqueen Apr 2013 #24
boston bean Apr 2013 #25
seabeyond Apr 2013 #31
redqueen Apr 2013 #39
whathehell Apr 2013 #56
niyad Apr 2013 #33
Warpy Apr 2013 #34
mercuryblues Apr 2013 #61
seabeyond Apr 2013 #62
Buffalo Bull Apr 2013 #64
seabeyond Apr 2013 #66
Buffalo Bull Apr 2013 #72
BainsBane Apr 2013 #73
redqueen Apr 2013 #75
Buffalo Bull Apr 2013 #87
redqueen Apr 2013 #89
Buffalo Bull Apr 2013 #90
Sheldon Cooper Apr 2013 #111
seabeyond Apr 2013 #116
Sheldon Cooper Apr 2013 #120
seabeyond Apr 2013 #121
Buffalo Bull Apr 2013 #118
Buffalo Bull Apr 2013 #78
BainsBane Apr 2013 #80
Buffalo Bull Apr 2013 #88
BainsBane Apr 2013 #96
Buffalo Bull Apr 2013 #99
BainsBane Apr 2013 #100
Buffalo Bull Apr 2013 #102
seabeyond Apr 2013 #82
boston bean Apr 2013 #74
ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #76
BainsBane Apr 2013 #81
Buffalo Bull Apr 2013 #91
redqueen Apr 2013 #92
Buffalo Bull Apr 2013 #94
BainsBane Apr 2013 #97
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niyad Apr 2013 #103
Buffalo Bull Apr 2013 #108
BainsBane Apr 2013 #105
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BainsBane Apr 2013 #126
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seabeyond Apr 2013 #117
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seabeyond Apr 2013 #122
Buffalo Bull Apr 2013 #124
boston bean Apr 2013 #127
seabeyond Apr 2013 #128
ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #104
Buffalo Bull Apr 2013 #110
ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #113
seaglass Apr 2013 #114
Buffalo Bull Apr 2013 #115
BainsBane Apr 2013 #131
geek tragedy Apr 2013 #68

Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 08:57 AM

1. IMO: The use of misogynistic terms is self-defeating.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 09:14 AM

3. that is how i see it ITW. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 09:18 AM

5. Well educated people should be able to express their ideas better.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 09:12 AM

2. interesting op

I think you probably should edit your post so that it reads "some men" or even "a large number of men"- the way this OP is worded can be taken to mean that all men are this way. I'm sure that isn't what you meant to indicate though.

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Response to sigmasix (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 09:15 AM

4. no. i will not change the wording of an author to appease or comfort A FEW men.

 

but, thank you for the suggestion.

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Response to theKed (Reply #27)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:41 AM

28. no. i am not playing this stupid ass game. again...

 

thank you for the suggestion AND no.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #28)


Response to theKed (Reply #30)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:46 AM

32. first... this is the way OP after OP is created. title. then article in body

 

of text.

if you are confused over this ONE piece, you might ask yourself why.

secondly, another form of derailing men use when women speak up... ok, SOME men use when SOME women speak up is having to clarify with a some, many, vast, few, handful, before we can say anything.

the reality and simplicity is, if it does not apply to you (which i would suggest it does apply to you reading your posts) then do not take it as being one of the MEN that the article refers to.

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Response to theKed (Reply #30)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 11:42 AM

48. People do this all over DU, all day every day.

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #48)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 12:03 PM

50. maybe i should put the link above. i thought it was suppose to be at the bottom.

 

whatever, lol

i was thinking game more the... hey, qualify with "some".

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #50)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 12:09 PM

51. Layers of games.

You know, just today I saw someone post something along the lines of: Why do women spend an hour putting on makeup and making themselves looks nice if they don't want to be complimented?

My initial reaction was "WTF is he talking about, ALL women don't do that, I don't spend an hour a week, combined, trying to make myself look nice!"

Then I thought, "Nobody said ALL women, so it's not about me."

It isn't hard to parse or sort out if you are willing to examine your initial defensive, knee jerk reaction to statements like that.

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #51)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 12:22 PM

53. ya? and my first response was... right, tell me again why boys and men do EXACTLY the same

 

in the primping. i have two sons that cannot walk past a mirror.

lets not pretend there is much of a difference at all. some do it to attrack. some do it for self. and a particular sex thinks it is ALL about them. society conditions us all.

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Response to theKed (Reply #30)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 11:58 AM

49. What game?

The game where you run straight to the Men's Group to whine about being blocked from this one.

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #49)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 12:49 PM

60. Ew.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #4)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 01:41 PM

63. Did not ask for that- why would you assume?

I was merely pointing out the fact that some of the so-called Men's Rights guys would and could use the use of sweeping generalizations about men in this OP as another example of "things to be scared of", if you're a guy.
I was having a hard time telling which of the sentences were written by you, and which were from the OP. If you didn't write "What’s disturbing is how white men and men of color..." or
"On one hand, there are male activists who reject feminism, as discussed above, but then there are men who consciously insert themselves into feminist discourse and assert authority over it."
The rules of DU are pretty clear about how we go about posting articles- and changing the writing of the OP is not within your discretion. I made the point for a couple reason's : sweeping generalizations about the "other" are part of the continued state of disagreement between women's movement feminism and men's movement masculinism.
If the writer of the OP is responsible for the two quotes, there ought to be some recognition that these sorts of sweeping generalizations are counter-productive and simply add fuel to the on-going social conflagration. I'm disappointed that the author did not proof-read her copy before it went to print; I'm convinced that she doesn't really mean that All white and black men "appoint themselves as “leaders” and use their “activist credibility” or “celebrity” status to hide and excuse their own sexism."- but the written word has nuances (especially English) that can be used to avoid giving these sorts of impressions. I also assume that she doesn't mean that all men fall into one of two camps; Anti-feminists or secretly Anti-feminist liberals- yet one could be left with this impression if they so choose (and probably use it as grist to convince another young man to accept a misogynistic mind-set)
Please don't take my points about the propensity for the written language to result in UN-intended implications as an attack. That is not what my intention was. Nor was it my intention for you to give the guys a break.
As I said; I was simply pointing out an (assumed) unintended vulnerability within the OP that could be used by the bad guys to discredit the whole thing. Acknowledging a mistake in syntax is not an attempt at an attack on you or the subject matter.
It is a very interesting article that certainly goes a long way in the critique of present power struggles within the movement itself.

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Response to sigmasix (Reply #63)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 01:47 PM

65. none of the words are mine. the whole thing from title to picture to all text is the author.

 

i separate text if i am going to put my own words in. there were quotes within the article i wanted to use exerpt. couldnt use that for the whole of the article, while using it for those pieces.

and yes, i got the gest that your suggestion were for the men that would use it to derail. and i am really at the point of NOT coddling their sensitive feelers. they have no issue with ours, outright name calling and derailing and not talking the issue.

thanks sigmasix

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Response to sigmasix (Reply #63)

Wed Apr 10, 2013, 01:50 PM

132. Anybody can interpret and infer anything any way they choose to.

Anybody can interpret and infer anything any way they choose to. Some will infer as to better understand, while others will infer in such a way as to better validate their own presumptions.

And as clearly and as unambiguously as my statement was written, I can validly infer at least three different interpretations to it... two would of course be predicated on validating presumptions, yet the interpretations, as incorrect as they would be, are still valid.

Much as your own post can easily be interpreted in many ways also. Not that you may hold the writings of others to a higher standard than you yourself hold to.

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Response to sigmasix (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 09:21 AM

6. You are truly the only one who can determine if it applies to you.

If it does, please change.

If it doesn't, then speak to the points and lend your voice.

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Response to sigmasix (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 09:38 AM

8. Are you being sarcastic?

Ironic? Sardonic?

Do you alter articles or blogs you've quoted to appease the tender sensibilities of those who might see in themselves the very ism they deny vociferously?

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Response to sigmasix (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:39 AM

26. Reach out to the author of the article

seabeyond just posted the information here for us to review.

If you need the vapors over that author's choice of words - that author can provide the smelling salts.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #26)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:54 AM

37. Apparently it's all just too hard to figure out.

Who's the author?

Can I say my wife is pretty?

Are doors sexist?

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Response to redqueen (Reply #37)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:56 AM

38. "Are doors sexist? " bah hahahahaha. good chuckle. now...

 

things to get done. thanks.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #37)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 11:08 AM

40. tsk tsk

Oooh! Ouch! Someone's getting a headache!

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Response to sigmasix (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 12:35 PM

57. I believe she's talking about men as a class -- not every man on the planet. n/t

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Response to sigmasix (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 05:08 PM

84. Incorrect. The "When" limits it to only those who do so. If I say, "When people run marathons,

they...", whatever follows only applies to people who run marathons.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #84)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 05:24 PM

86. ya... cause i am pretty sure not ALL people are runnin' that marathon. thanks. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #86)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 03:42 PM

129. Yep. That particular "when" is "never" for most of us.

And if the "when" is NEVER for a particular person, then the statement doesn't apply to that person. To give such a statement any other meaning is to fail to grasp the English language or to purposely misinterpret it for the sake of poutrage.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 09:33 AM

7. Good post, and informative link!

Whether we are men who self-identify as anti-racist, advocate against homophobia, hold leadership positions in radical movements, rightly express outrage against right-wing misogynists and patriarchy at large, write articles that condemn all forms of injustice, or all of the above, none of this gives us a free pass on sexism, including sexist language.


That so many DUers use sexist language to snipe and demean is appalling. Knee-jerk, defensive stances from the "feminist poseurs" are increasing. Most of the poseurs have little or no knowledge of what is patriarchy!

Thank you for your continuing efforts to enlighten the uninformed (as well as the unapologetic poseurs).

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 09:41 AM

9. Unbridled misandry running amuck is more like it.

 

However, the recent bevy of posts have opened an interesting dialog between the Mrs. and me.

So please answer me this. A few moments ago as my wife was getting set up for her chemo treatment a nurse (I presume) came walking past and a shout came from across the room "wow you really look great." I looked at the wife and she looked at me and I said so is that sexist or what? So is that sexist or misogynistic or just one co-worker complimenting another? Having never seen the nurse before I have no way of knowing if she looked great or not. I did notice the brightly colored canary yellow pants though and thought they looked pretty snazzy.

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Response to Soundman (Reply #9)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 09:45 AM

10. what does that have to do with the OP? oh wait, nothing. first.

 

and you and your wife can raise your eyebrows in a gotcha, BUT, if you and your wife do not see the difference with pres of the u.s. on tv talking about a womans position in govt as "easy on the eyes" and a bunch of co worker friends in a daily environment saying a particular person looks nice, i doubt me explaining it to you and your wife step by step will do a single damn thing.

thank you for playing.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #10)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:16 AM

14. I have read the op several times and still find no connection to the title.

 

So thank you very much. Did the article talk about the president, I guess I missed that part? Also the article is as poorly written as any I have ever read so I must admit it was hard to understand what the point is. But am positive about one thing though, there is a group of five or so members who just ooze misandry.

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Response to Soundman (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:17 AM

15. "there is a group of five or so members" wow. you sound like you have been here a LONG time.

 

you have even picked up the meme to dismiss the issue, lol.

ok. so, you do not get it. no surprise there. that is cool. go on with yourself.

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Response to Soundman (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:41 AM

29. You don't want to

Understand the point.

It's easier to chuckle - and snort - and jab elbows and wink/wink with your wife than to contemplate a different point of view that challenges your core beliefs.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #29)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 09:00 PM

106. "Sister Hair Flip An Idiot"

I so love that.

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Response to Soundman (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:51 AM

35. you call us a bunch of misandrists, and refer to your partner as "the wife"--charming. doesn't

take anything else in your posts to tell me what I need to know about your views.

signed, sister militant of the order of the sisters of perpetual outrage.

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Response to niyad (Reply #35)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:53 AM

36. sister militant of the order of the sisters of perpetual outrage. lmao. needs to continue.

 

sister militant of the order of the sisters of perpetual outrage, i say softly and with respect and my clothes on.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #36)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 11:13 AM

41. Check out my new sig line1



niyad hit that one out of the ball park!

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #41)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 11:14 AM

42. Nice. I gotta think of a good "sister" name.

I believe "Sister Dworkin" is already taken.

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #42)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 11:32 AM

46. yes, I believe it is

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #41)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 11:26 AM

43. you guys are funny. k.... someone decide on for me and tell me how to do it. lol

 

that is funny

i will have to think.

sister frigid anti sex virgin with two kids???? lol. hm.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #43)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 11:34 AM

47. hmmm, sister immaculata comes to mind--will give it more thought.

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Response to niyad (Reply #47)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 12:18 PM

52. The

vagina dentata? I had to look that one up. Perfect.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #43)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 09:02 PM

107. Lol. I like your sister name,go for it!

I'm going to have to think of a clever one if everybody else is going to.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #41)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 11:30 AM

45. LOVE your new sig line!!

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Response to niyad (Reply #45)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 03:38 PM

70. Luminous Animal and I discussed

all adopting new sig lines. I finally came up with mine.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #36)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 11:29 AM

44. yes, you may leave your clothes on. it's the sisters of perpetual indulgence who are often

skyclad.

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Response to niyad (Reply #35)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 12:38 PM

58. HA !

"Sister militant of the order of perpetual outrage".

I love it.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #58)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 12:46 PM

59. can't take credit for it--a poster referred to some of us as militant feminists the other day--had

not heard that term in ages. and another used the term sisters of perpetual outrage. I am pretty sure they did not intend to start a new order, but. . . .

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Response to niyad (Reply #59)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 02:05 PM

67. Still...

You get props for using it.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #58)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 03:42 PM

71. Have you seen Luminous Animal's new sign line?

Sister Dworkinite of the Sisters of Blessed Outrage

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #71)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 07:15 PM

93. Sounds good to me, LOL.

It also sounds like she was a fan of Andrea Dworkin?...I liked Dworkin. Very sad

that she died so young.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #93)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 07:22 PM

95. You know I'm not sure

She may have chosen it because certain members despise Dworkin so much.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #95)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 10:34 AM

123. Are you saying that

certain members of HOF despise Dworkin?...I can see where

some might think she was "radical", and even I didn't agree with

everything she said, but she was an intellectual, who, in my view,

caught the "seed of truth" in even exaggerated of examples.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #123)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 01:23 PM

125. no

Not HOF. Some of the people who are saying we are perpetually outraged despise her.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #125)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 04:25 PM

130. Okay. n/t

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Response to Soundman (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 03:29 PM

69. Really?

When I was in 7th grade, I recall spending a fair bit of time on assignments that involved reading a series of paragraphs and then summarizing the main point. While I didn't think much of it at the time, in retrospect I see it must have served me well.

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Response to Soundman (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:50 PM

77. It flew so far over your head that it didn't even ruffle the hair

 

Maybe you ducked?

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #77)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:55 PM

79. that was cute. nt

 

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #77)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 07:38 PM

98. :)

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Response to Soundman (Reply #9)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 09:51 AM

11. "Unbridled misandry" almost always means...

...somewhere, a man got his feelings hurt.

Excuse me for not getting worked up about it.

Regarding your question, there is no way to know, because we don't know anything about the relationship between the person offering the compliment and the person being complimented.

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Response to Soundman (Reply #9)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 12:31 PM

55. You're subject line strikes me as "unbridled bullshit run amuck", actually,

and that lame question you're asking was asked and answered forty years ago.

It seems you've got a bit of "catching up" to do.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:11 AM

12. Yea, right, attacking men who support women's rights is the ticket

 

Great strategy.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #12)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:15 AM

13. kinda ironic since it is an article addressing men attacking women thru sexism

 

and the author calling that out.

maybe if men were not being misognist/sexist, then it would not need to be addressed. ya think?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #13)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:21 AM

17. He has been blocked.

I have a very low tolerance lately of people who attack this group ad infinitum outside of here. I'm sorry, but it flies in the face of a safe haven.

I got an email, not asking for re-consideration of the block, but more criticism of feminists in this group.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #17)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:23 AM

18. ya. i getcha. not like his position is not quite clear for all of us. nt

 

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Response to boston bean (Reply #17)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 12:23 PM

54. Good....You're right...It's hardly a "safe haven" when they attack us for sport. n/t

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Response to quinnox (Reply #12)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:24 AM

19. Funny isn't it?

 

I have devolved into the enemy even though I thought I was on the same team.

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Response to Soundman (Reply #19)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:25 AM

21. No you haven't. You have made yourself a focus.

no one has said a damn thing about you personally.

Now run along.

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Response to Soundman (Reply #19)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:26 AM

22. asking men who are suppose to be on the side of equality for women is devolving into the enemy?

 

asking a man to actually think about his behavior, not use sexist terms, not sexually harass and objectify is devolving you into the enemy?

wow. what does that make our "supposed" enemies?

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Response to quinnox (Reply #12)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:28 AM

23. Way to miss the point. (n/t)

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Response to quinnox (Reply #12)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 05:04 PM

83. What rights do you support?

I'm guessing you support abortion rights, but is there anything else? I've spoken about this before. Here are my thoughts on the issue.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=19017

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Response to quinnox (Reply #12)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 05:13 PM

85. Like members here criticizing Democratic politicians?

and the President, yet somehow women should not criticize men when we have a point of disagreement?

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:18 AM

16. This knocked it out of the park

This is not about men taking on “savior” roles, but instead taking responsibility for their complicity. We are complicit when we are silent about misogyny within movements; we are complicit when we tell women to ignore sexist oppression; we are complicit when we laugh at misogynistic “jokes”; we are complicit when we encourage sexual objectification instead of challenging it; we are complicit when we continue friendships with these abusive men despite knowing the damage their misogyny is causing; we are complicit when we make the conscious decision to refuse listening to those who are calling us out on being silent or participants in any of the above.

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #16)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:25 AM

20. the whole article needed to be posted for our fellow duers. but ya... that should be highlighted

 

for all.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:30 AM

24. Thanks for posting this.

One thing that makes this a tough fight is the amount of women who line up to support the use of sexist and misogynist slurs.

Guys like the one in the OP and many guys on DU simply point to those women as an excuse to stop listening or learning.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:35 AM

25. There are actually people in this thread

who sympathize with men who use sexist and misogynistic terms while spouting they support womens rights.

And when a woman tells them the effect that has on women, they are ready to make themselves the victims of feminism.. Because they are being told using misogynistic terms while speaking up for womens rights, is really not all that supportive...! WTF

It's crazy!!!!!

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Response to boston bean (Reply #25)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:43 AM

31. SOME, you gotta change it to SOME, right fuckin' now.... please, oh please....

 

change it to some.

wtf is that. lmfao.

geeez. i came up on an article about men being MORE vulnerable (ok, most men) and being more sensitive than women. maybe i ought to have that article for an Op also. for SOME men.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #25)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 11:08 AM

39. You can set your watch by it.

Attempt to discuss anything about society or macro level sociological issues and in come the IT'S ALL ABOUT MEEEEEEEEEEE brigade. Bleargh.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #25)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 12:34 PM

56. Indeed...

and I might add "pathetic" and "brainwashed" as well.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:47 AM

33. k and r--thank you for posting this, sea. most informative.


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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:47 AM

34. While "The Feminine Mystique" captured the interest

of bored college educated housewives in upper middle class suburbs, the thing that galvanized the feminist movement among the young was the way we'd been treated by the "new left" of the 1960s.

For me there have always been two women's movements, the one that was preoccupied with smashing the glass ceiling and the one that needed to break into unions in order to feed their kids; the one that hired nannies and the one that wanted something better than putting their kids into any dodgy day care they could find because there was so little available.

If you want to know where working class feminists came from, just check out some of the men they used to be married to in the late 60s and throughout the 70s, many of them very strong leftists everywhere but the home.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 12:52 PM

61. I had a very long

exchange with the authout of an article a while back about cantor's position on VAWA.

I general the article was good and informative. The shit flew when I pointed out that the men that the author quoted were described only as professionally and acurately. The woman that the author quoted also was a professional, but refered to as screaming. I have seen this woman interviewed on numerous occassions and never once heard her scream anything.

I hate that shit.

As the exchange went on the liberal author was actually defending Cantor, by the end of it. I was amazed how far *some* people will go to defend sexism.

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #61)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 12:56 PM

62. men... described only as professionally and acurately. woman... refered to as screaming.

 

that is never ending. it is probably one of the most annoying. but, men get that and why they project that. yes. so true. thank you for recognizing. amazing. and good point.

liberal author was actually defending Cantor, by the end of it. I was amazed how far *some* people will go to defend sexism.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 01:44 PM

64. in defense vulgar left males


I would like to address the accusation in the following sentence.

" I want to discuss in a broader context: sexism and misogyny from men in Leftist spaces and their refusal to hold themselves accountable, even when they are called out on it."

To absolve myself of accountably when it comes to your charges of harboring sexism, could mean only that I disagree with you on this issue. That agreement would amount to endorsing the censorship of adult political discourse. Which is exactly what you are doing, and I would be placing myself on the sinning side of that divide. i am not willing to accept that you are correct in attempting to shame a man into justifying hisself before your tribunal, nor any other.
With ease you may level a charge of sexism, will you defend your approach to political discussion versus the charge of censorship.
In the long run it is far better to welcome political allies than attempt to perfect them.

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #64)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 01:50 PM

66. when we start discussing the ease we use racism on du, then you may have a point. we seem to be

 

in agreement racism is not acceptable, as a liberal. and to a point, the same with homophobia. so when i see is us using the n word on steele or homophobic slurs against the log cabin, then i could discuss your point. right now though, you point fails.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #66)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:01 PM

72. The truth is...Free speech is THE liberal principle



We liberals are the defenders of the rights and equality of all of America's out casts. The slurs the oppressors tell about about gays and women and blacks...are lies designed to make acceptable this negative view. Only truth, some time gritty presented that stole the slurs from the oppressors. There was a time, the 'n' word was used only by the oppressors until it was taken and shown to be impotent by the media and entertainment industries. Now you may start a fight with that word, but its meaning has changed.
Censorship requires you to lie, subtly perhaps but a lie is, what a lie is. That is why oppressive societies regard restricting free speech as primary. That censorship creates a silence that allows the oppressive slur to be taken as fact.
If your speech does not reflect your meaning , it is a lie. And by a measure you have weakened your side.


You mentioned homophobic slurs against log cabin. Clarify your point, is it that you dislike a word being used in a form that is politically 'unfair'?
Any homophobic slur that I might utter would be at the expense of Antonin Scalia and in support of the log cabins seeking equality, thus would be very difficult to condemn as homophobic.
Wouldn't it?

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #72)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:16 PM

73. Do you really think the N word means something else now?

Are you saying you use that word? Ask some African Americans around here how they feel about white people using that word. Then tell me it doesn't matter.

The constitution protects all kinds of offensive speech. DU does not. Du does not allow Republican views on the site. Why should misogyny be protected on a site organized around a party in which women are the majority of voters?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #73)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:41 PM

75. When white people try to use the in-group n-word they're shamed and ridiculed.

When white people cluelessly whine about how unfair it is that black people can use it but they can't, people ridicule them.

No white person tries to use other racist insults and pretend they think its fine to do so.


When men use any of the myriad gendered slurs against women, people fall all over themselves to try to frame it as free speech (apparently failing to understand the concept), or accuse people of not having a sense of humor (know your audience, anyone? are you on a stage? cracking jokes around your friends? no? ) or otherwise try to dig their heels in using any means necessary to maintain the status quo. And sadly, many women line up to support these ridiculous excuses for arguments. (But then no other oppressed group internalizes their own oppression as deeply as women.)

This status quo, in which women are plagued by violence (3 women killed every day by their male partner or ex partner, 1 in 6 raped, a sexual assault every few seconds), treated as less than, and generally expected to shut up and smile or suffer the consequences.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #75)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 06:09 PM

87. Please consider your last paragraph



The numbers are true and are a stain on our nation.
How directly connected are these to my lapses into what has been deemed, overly spiced dialogue.
By failing to observe PC, a minor sin if there ever was one, you seem to be implying that I should bear some guilt for very heinous crimes.
I would bear that guilt if I opposed equality. If I had supported the regressive systems that enabled the crime you speak of, yes I would be very guilty. I would bear that guilt if, when in the presence of the real enemy, I turned my backs on my brothers and sisters.
I have asked if...
You you prefer a stedfast ally with a touch of potty mouth.
OR. An implacable foe who never says a bad word.
OR. Useless, silent Allies too worried that they may express their anger at the politics that enable oppression too accurately.
No I won't retract what I had said about Scalia, the contempt I have for him is too true for me to make my language untrue.

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #87)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 06:35 PM

89. No, that is not my implication.

This has nothing to do with guilt.

It has to do with reinforcing oppression by contributing to it via microaggressions.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #89)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 06:48 PM

90. I understand your point but..



If I felt that I were reinforcing oppression, in any way large or small, i would feel guilty.

I am not capable of meeting anyone's standards of purity, not even my own, my eternal hope is that my imperfections are forgiven, if i am pointed in the right direction and on the right road.
Just as I am happy to forgive the imperfections of every traveler i meet on this road.

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #87)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 08:54 AM

111. As soon as someone throws out the "PC" whine, they are off my list of people

to spend time on. It means they've swallowed the right wing meme and are not at all open to discuss issues of any substance. So, goodbye.

(Go ahead, serial alert stalker, hit the button.)

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #111)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 09:26 AM

116. honestly, i listen to a whole slew of this shit and i think, really. people are demanding the worst

 

of who we are, defending that worst us, and insisting we all live it.

i cannot agree to the right to throw out hate, and death threats, and rape jokes as a means of bullying and controlling, then defending that behavior, as a society. and i see people cheering this argument.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #116)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 09:44 AM

120. The cheering is approved, ever present, and only getting louder.

This has happened and is tolerated to different extents on other "liberal" websites as well. I don't spend much time on them, either. I know I am relentlessly negative about this website and its endemic misogyny, but it's become crystal clear that it is not going to change. Ever.

So, at some point you (and others) will have a choice to make. I take what I want from Democratic (sic) Underground (sic), there are a couple of areas that I actually like, and then I leave. I'm okay with that, it is not an important segment of my life and I can take or leave it altogether.

I feel badly for you seabeyond, and others, who have spent a long time here trying to be heard above the giggles and backslapping and titty pics. You've poured your heart and soul into it and gotten slapped in the face in return. You can decide to stay and keep trying, or move on. Either way, I hope you do what's best for your well-being. You may consider leaving as a sign of defeat, but remember that there is no shame in removing yourself from a cesspit and allowing those who wish to stay to wallow in it. You and many of the other women here deserve better than this.

Now, I'm sure the serial alert stalker(s) will be quite busy with this one, so if I get deleted or banished, let me just say that I've enjoyed getting to know all of you. Take care of yourselved and keep up the good fight.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #120)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 10:01 AM

121. thank you for this post.....

 

much.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #111)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 09:32 AM

118. the MLK quote at the bottom of your post...is perfect



The insults of our foes is cacophony
The silence of our friends is deafening

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #73)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:50 PM

78. the has been an evolution



There was a time when that word was only administered at the end of a boss man's whip or as a faceless taunt yelled from a crowd at Jackie Robinson.
There was a time when the word was commonly used in the hall of power. When a Congressman had no fear of a KKK endorsement. (see Indiana's Democratic Party and the KKK in the 1920's)

Recall Mel Brooks use of the word in 'Blazing Saddles'.
We are not on the same planet if you try to tell me that Mel Brooks was using the word in a negative fashion. The use of the term in the fashion Brooks used eventually de-fanged the term. Now in order for the term to have the effect it used to have, it has to be tied to a dis-credited act or policy.
I have had Black friends and acquaintances that I could use the word with in the correct context. There is a jocular honesty when we can refer to Jeb Bush as an 'inbred Cracker' with out worrying that we had offended anyone, but Bush
There are others who's self image wouldn't allow that.

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #78)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:56 PM

80. I was raised to never use such language

and I won't. I have seen white men use it in groups of friends. I'm not part of that cultural context, am older, so it just shocks me. If your friends find it acceptable, it's not my place to judge.

Don't for a minute think that makes it remotely okay to call me a B -- or any other slur for women because it doesn't.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #80)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 06:34 PM

88. not everyone was raised the same


After the Korean War my fathers brother married a girl he met in the Army. They ended up in Tennessee. Going down there during the 60's and early 70's as I kid I heard language that by far puts the words complained about in this form to blush. Not every Progressive has the advantage of progressive input from all corners of his family. I learned a few things.

Not every wrong could be righted there are not enough hours in a day.
Some skulls are very thick, thus sometimes using a word to reflect their hate back on to them was useful.
Your friend is the one front and center when the real fight starts.

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #88)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 07:25 PM

96. which friend?

I understand people are raised differently, but we all have the capacity to evolve. I imagine that none of us were raised thinking gay marriage was a civil right, but most of us do now. As an adult, we all have the opportunity to learn to treat others with the respect we wish.

If I were you, I wouldn't be quite so certain your African American friends are completely cool with you calling them racial names. I might double check.

Which friend are you talking about?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #96)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 07:42 PM

99. i see....


Because I can be course and feed the bigots language back to them I must be one?

Who is my friend you ask.
Am I to take it I have been disqualified.


The words "the real fight" is the key to that sentence.
It is over real issues like gay marriage.
It is when you shut up a real bigot when he uses language with menace.

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #99)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 07:46 PM

100. I didn't say that

Or even think it, for that matter. I don't live near anyone who speaks that way. In fact, that kind of "real bigotry" is relatively rare. Racism is far more nuanced these days. If we only stand up to klansmen, we accomplish little.

Sexism is still totally out in the open.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #100)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 08:08 PM

102. to close today with a point of agreement...



Sexism is still totally out in the open

You won't make much money exploiting racism.
There are no magazines dedicated to homophobia.

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #78)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 05:00 PM

82. ya. racist, sexist, homophobic slurs have all evolved, no longer bothersome. this man meant nothin'

 

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #72)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:28 PM

74. Do you call black people the n word

in a derogatory fashion, in the name of free speech is a liberal value?

Please do try it out on DU and we'll see how long you'll be for DU.

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #72)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:45 PM

76. Lets make this simple

Say what you like, how you like and when you like. Nobody, and I mean nobody is arguing for censorship. (BTW, the example in the argument you are making could easily be misconstrued)

Except perhaps, yourself. I believe in and support your right to free speech. I believe in and support my right to object to what anybody, including you, says. I can object from everything from individual words to entire arguments to the wording in Supreme Court rulings. My objections aren't law, my objections aren't censorship.


Turning your argument around, you seem to be saying I shouldn't exercise MY right to free speech.


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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #76)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:57 PM

81. excellent response

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #76)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 07:08 PM

91. No not at all



I defend rabidly your right to call me an ass.
Being utterly imperfect there may be times when I would agree

This little debate began when I came across a posting, that was about censorship and pressure to conform to PC within this forum.

Thus perhaps a rewording of the first line of your posting is in order

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #91)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 07:12 PM

92. "Political correctness" is RW spin.

There is pressure to conform to progressive values here.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #92)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 07:21 PM

94. They have their own PC...


And we are progressives here.
Thus there is pressure to conform to progressive values here

Did we, define the term?

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #94)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 07:36 PM

97. the term means sensitivity

for the interests of non-Christians, women, people of color. and LGBT folks. That is what people object to when evoking the term PC. They don't feel they should have to consider sensitivities other than their own. That is how I have always understood the meaning. Now, one might think that view is a province of the right, but sadly it does not belong to them exclusively.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #97)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 08:00 PM

101. ok one question.


The 'Buffalo Gay Mens Choir', supports themselves in part through 'Gay Bingo'
A lot of fun.
Drag queens run the game. They are far more florid in Their language than I am.
It is the custom to insult the winners of the games.
My wife won and was called 'b*tch' by the queen running the game.

How am I supposed to take this?

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #101)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 08:11 PM

103. you aren't "supposed" to take it any particular way, you take it any way you like. if you or your

wife object to her being called that, you could stop going to the games. if it isn't a problem, keep going. I, for example, have absolutely no problem with that word. My standard response is, "you say that like it's a BAD thing". But that is just me.

but then, I suspect you already knew the answer. what kind of responses did you get on that other board about these issues?

Sister Militant
AC, PHD
Blessed Order of the Sisters of Perpetual Outrage

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Response to niyad (Reply #103)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 07:25 AM

108. ... supposed to take it as humor...and we lol

Last edited Tue Apr 9, 2013, 08:25 AM - Edit history (1)


A gentleman wins the game before the game my wife had won the caller pointing out the winner says some thing like. "Our winner is the 'Twinkie over in the corner"..the rest of the players rpeat the 'insult' and point at the winner...

The arguement was made that there is no valid use of 'deragotory' language. That any use involves a taint of bigotry that renders any use of those words as wrong. Even if the 'offended' party is the party using that language.
That there is something wrong with the dynamics of my long time friendship, with a black man because we are loose enough to use this language, in the same 'crude humor' motif as the bingo game.
I have argued that these words have evolved and the who, what, when, where and why of the use of the 'n' word or the use of some other 'banned' word, determine it's validity.
When I go to Brians house for this weeks Basketball game and a cigar, he will probibly will find it amusing.

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #101)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 08:18 PM

105. What they do among themselves is their issue

Just don't call me by that name or think it's acceptable everyday language. Most men use it as a term of insult, either against women or men, when they want to insult their masculinity.

I am bored to tears with these conversations where men seek to justify ways in which they enjoy demeaning women. If you feel compelled to go through life hurling racist and sexist slurs, that's your concern. I for one choose not to have anything to do with people who do speak that way. Exercise your first amendment right to insult all you like. You just won't do it with me.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #105)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 07:40 AM

109. I would never assume you are that familiar...



I would never use those words in a way that directed them at you personally. In fact prior to this debate I had never used any word like that here. My first use, and only use was only to argue limited applicability.
The using this of this language in a public forum should be limited to a rare time when a 'sledge hammer' is needed to drive home a point. With the knowledge that any use is a double edged sword.
Just look at the stir the concept of a valid use has brought up here among adults with similar political leanings.
I honestly felt my post arguing for the inclusion of these terms in our forum was every bit as banal as any other item I had posted.

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #109)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 01:26 PM

126. here's the thing

I've been through arguments about how I'm not supposed to be offended by the word a million times. I'm not interested in rehashing it. Obviously context matters for any word choice. I'll leave it at that.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #105)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 08:55 AM

112. in the words of Ruth Marcus...




Ruth Marcus: An act of political malpractice - The Washington Post
www.washingtonpost.com/.../ruth-marcus.../8a230624-9fcc-11e2-82...

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #112)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 09:27 AM

117. or a bully, sexist, misogynist. a racist. a homophobic. a white male with privilege not willing

 

to give up power and control over other human being with excuse to the RIGHT to bully and harass.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #117)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 09:39 AM

119. Is Obama misogynist?



Please read the Ruth Marcus editorial referred to in a previous post.

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #119)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 10:03 AM

122. at a certain point of ignorance,.... just go away. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #122)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 10:38 AM

124. indeed

are these things approved slurs?
Accusations?...
Tis best we call it a day.

117. or a bully, sexist, misogynist. a racist. a homophobic. a white male with privilege not willing

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #122)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 01:29 PM

127. he's been blocked.

Had just about enough of him saying it was a liberal value to call black people the n word.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #127)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 01:31 PM

128. not to mention having HH brought back in thought, and the men playing with it, all the while

 

listening to THEIR right to the fuckin freedom of speech to hurt and cause pain at will.

big fuckin bully for them.

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #91)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 08:11 PM

104. What, keep this simple?

It IS simple. You say what you like, and I'll object to what I choose. I think you object to the original OP, correct? But not to the point of saying it shouldn't be allowed, you object to the premise of modifying language, claiming it's 'censorship' if I'm reading this correctly.

I don't agree anything is suggested as censorship. It's pointing out the objectionable. It doesn't mean anybody is actually going to change or even rethink their use of language, of words, in the broader historical context of gendered lives.

Now, as I enjoy stating often, I can be the most vulgar person I know. You'll just have to trust me on that. I enjoy vulgarity to the extent it remains ironic, which in my world it all is.

However, I also self-censor; out of respect, out of a desire for honest debate or conversation, out of a wish to cause no harm-- many reasons. I avoid anything recognizable as hate speech as personally repugnant, and I choose not to allow it go unchallenged in my presence ---ever. The means I use to do that can easily descend into the vulgar. Many find that tactic objectionable.

I recognize as well, that words are powerful tools and carry our cultural freight. They are the primary medium of adult communication. To say they have the 'power you give them' or other such drivel is not even worthy of a response. (not that you've said or implied such a thing)


Also Being imperfect, I fuck up on occasion.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #104)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 08:46 AM

110. you have recognized my point



You are correct in the assumption made in the fist paragraph. A requirement that language be modified in a political discussion is a subtle form of censorship. The original thread that drew me in to this discussion was titled "Was this necessary", and was posted by 'TheKed'. This posting had a link to this thread.
The art of Self censorship that you practice is the only valid form of censorship. It would take an act of balance and wordsmanship beyond my capacity to be able to accurately express myself with out a lapse or two.
The crude insult at the expense of Antonin Scalia was purposely expressed in as exaggerated a form as I could muster and be able to claim valid political usage. If any of our gay brothers in this fourm are offended, consider the context, and if you still find it offensive rest assured that no personal insult, (except towards Scalia) was intended.

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #110)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 09:00 AM

113. Okey dokey

I understand then.

Scalia is both easy and difficult to insult. Easy because he's disgusting-- difficult because its hard to find a way to express HOW disgusting adequately.

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #110)


Response to seaglass (Reply #114)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 09:22 AM

115. yes it is strange.....



Because Scalia deserves insult?

Coarse words are like any other aggressive tool, to be used at your own risk.
There was a question of upbringing asked of me. I was raised in a contentious and jocular environment. If one complained about petty insult one risked losing the larger point. You also gave 'them' a easy way to knock you off topic.
My upbringing may have rendered me more aggressive than what is ideal.
However, am I correct in assuming that my upbringing most resembles the way the America debates it's politics?
Does this make me more or less effective when confronting 'Them'?

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #104)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 05:29 PM

131. You handle these things beautifully



I have no patience for them. You, however, are superb at this.

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Response to Buffalo Bull (Reply #64)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 03:02 PM

68. Exaggerated sense of victimhood much? nt

 

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