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DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Retired » Retired Forums » 2016 Postmortem (Forum) » Where Bernie is disingenu...

Thu Dec 10, 2015, 11:28 PM

hill2016 (1,772 posts)

 

Where Bernie is disingenuous

(1) His platform calls for increased government spending. However to have an honest discussion on policy you need to discuss the sources of revenue as well. I don't know whether he has raised this issue at his rally: how much revenue will he raise from each source? what are the tax rates that will be increased? who will be impacted?

And no, a "financial transactions tax" is not the gold at the end of the rainbow: painless (on the people who matter), plentiful and without adverse side effect.

(2) free public college: all countries that have tried it impose limits on who qualifies. I don't here any discussion of this.

(3) Denmark/Scandinavia nirvana: not a word of the high taxes on the middle class.


I'm happy to be proven wrong.

38 replies, 1601 views

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Arrow 38 replies Author Time Post
Reply Where Bernie is disingenuous (Original post)
 hill2016 Dec 2015 OP
LineReply Message auto-removed
 Name removed Dec 2015 #1
LineLineReply sure
 hill2016 Dec 2015 #6
LineReply What's the secret word of the day, Conky?
 Scootaloo Dec 2015 #2
LineLineReply lol
 Matariki Dec 2015 #3
LineLineLineReply Hmm...
 bvf Dec 2015 #7
LineLineReply !
 bvf Dec 2015 #4
LineLineReply I prefer Conky to this one.
 merrily Dec 2015 #5
LineLineReply Lmao....
 Docreed2003 Dec 2015 #26
LineLineNew Reply I have to vote for Bernie
 artislife Dec 2015 #31
LineReply Kicked and highly recommended n/t
 cosmicone Dec 2015 #8
LineReply And what about all the tax breaks Hillary wants?
 zalinda Dec 2015 #9
LineLineReply What tax breaks?
 Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #28
LineLineNew Reply There is a crazy thing in this country
 artislife Dec 2015 #32
LineReply Bernie Sanders has been clearer about taxes than Hillary Clinton.
 Eric J in MN Dec 2015 #10
LineReply I like Nirvana!
 aidbo Dec 2015 #11
LineLineReply +10000000
 UglyGreed Dec 2015 #21
LineLineLineNew Reply I went to the Seattle Center when we got the news
 artislife Dec 2015 #33
LineLineReply You win my award for Avatar of the day
 firebrand80 Dec 2015 #23
LineLineReply Great song....
 Docreed2003 Dec 2015 #27
LineReply Amazon review for Uranium Ore
 beam me up scottie Dec 2015 #12
LineReply His platform would be cheaper than what we have now
 AgingAmerican Dec 2015 #13
LineLineReply then who is going
 hill2016 Dec 2015 #20
LineReply he is very upfront about raising taxes
 Enrique Dec 2015 #14
LineReply True he should at least address those issues
 treestar Dec 2015 #15
LineLineReply Entry requirements come from the institution
 AgingAmerican Dec 2015 #16
LineLineLineReply so
 hill2016 Dec 2015 #22
LineLineLineLineReply Community colleges are public
 AgingAmerican Dec 2015 #25
LineLineNew Reply College is free for students in Germany
 GermanWatcher Dec 2015 #35
LineReply Wow, you mean it will get tighter for Middle Class wage earners getting $250K/year??
 Hepburn Dec 2015 #17
LineLineNew Reply Hillary wants FICA raised on those making $250,000 a year, Sanders wants it raised
 Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #29
LineReply I have some quotes that seem to sum up your message
 Armstead Dec 2015 #18
LineReply I know, right . . .
 fleur-de-lisa Dec 2015 #19
LineReply A nebulous kick.
 Alfresco Dec 2015 #24
LineNew Reply He has answered the first question at his rallies and more.
 artislife Dec 2015 #30
LineNew Reply It blows me away that you're even advancing this argument.
 PatrickforO Dec 2015 #34
LineNew Reply Another dishonest post from a Clinton supporter, why am I not shocked?
 Motown_Johnny Dec 2015 #36
LineNew Reply Easy Peasy... We've Done It Before, Ya Know ???
 WillyT Dec 2015 #37
LineNew Reply I hope you are happy now
 Hiraeth Dec 2015 #38

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Name removed Message auto-removed

Response to Name removed (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 10, 2015, 11:59 PM

hill2016 (1,772 posts)

6. sure

 

show me how much revenue he wants to bring in from taxes and who exactly he is taxing.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Thu Dec 10, 2015, 11:33 PM

Scootaloo (25,699 posts)

2. What's the secret word of the day, Conky?

 

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 10, 2015, 11:37 PM

Matariki (18,775 posts)

3. lol



DU needs a game where you try to group all the posts with the 'secret word of the day'!

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Response to Matariki (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 12:46 AM

bvf (6,604 posts)

7. Hmm...

 




Showing my age.

But, great idea that would never fly!

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 10, 2015, 11:45 PM

bvf (6,604 posts)

4. !

 



Out with it, Conky!

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 10, 2015, 11:50 PM

Star Member merrily (45,251 posts)

5. I prefer Conky to this one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027435003

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 07:59 PM

Star Member Docreed2003 (15,020 posts)

26. Lmao....

That brings back memories

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 08:13 PM

artislife (9,497 posts)

31. I have to vote for Bernie

 

His supporters are quirky and fun!!

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 01:04 AM

cosmicone (11,014 posts)

8. Kicked and highly recommended n/t

 

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 01:45 AM

zalinda (5,621 posts)

9. And what about all the tax breaks Hillary wants?

These tax breaks will do absolutely nothing for the poor, because they usually don't pay taxes. And, if you keep up with the news the middle class is shrinking fast. So, most of these tax breaks will go to the wealthy, but then you knew that.

Z

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Response to zalinda (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 08:05 PM

Thinkingabout (30,058 posts)

28. What tax breaks?

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Response to zalinda (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 08:15 PM

artislife (9,497 posts)

32. There is a crazy thing in this country

 

They only think working has merit. Maybe because it is the money generator for it?

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 04:10 AM

Eric J in MN (35,616 posts)

10. Bernie Sanders has been clearer about taxes than Hillary Clinton.

Bernie Sanders introduced "The College for All Act" which raises the needed $750 billion with stock-transactions tax:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/1373/text
===
“(1) 0.5 percent in the case of a security described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of subsection (e)(1),

“(2) 0.10 percent in the case of a security described in subparagraph (C) of subsection (e)(1), and

“(3) 0.005 percent in the case of a security described in subparagraph (D), (E), or (F) of subsection (e)(1).
====

Hillary Clinton doesn't have a specific tax proposal for the $350 billion needed for her "debt-free college" plan.



With regard to Denmark, the Danes pay high taxes, but they're at the top in terms of happiness.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 04:31 AM

aidbo (2,328 posts)

11. I like Nirvana!

 

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Response to aidbo (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 01:18 PM

UglyGreed (7,661 posts)

21. +10000000

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Response to UglyGreed (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 08:16 PM

artislife (9,497 posts)

33. I went to the Seattle Center when we got the news

 

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Response to aidbo (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 01:22 PM

firebrand80 (2,760 posts)

23. You win my award for Avatar of the day

Well done

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Response to aidbo (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 08:00 PM

Star Member Docreed2003 (15,020 posts)

27. Great song....

Love the "Live and Loud" version as well..

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 04:38 AM

beam me up scottie (57,349 posts)

12. Amazon review for Uranium Ore

So glad I don't have to buy this from Libyans in parking lots at the mall anymore.
By Kyle J. Von Bose - January 21, 2009

I bought this to power a home-made submarine that I use to look for prehistoric-era life forms in land-locked lakes around my home town in Alaska. At first I wasn't sure if this item would (or could) arrive via mail, but I was glad to see it showed up with no problems. Well, almost no problems.

Unfortuantly my mom opened my mail, because she does not respect people's privacy. She was pretty upset to see Uranium Ore. After a long argument and me running away from home again, she finaly stopped being such an idiot and I was able to get back to work.

The quality of this Uranium is on par with the stuff I was bying from the Libyans over at the mall parking lot, but at half the price! I just hope the seller does not run out, because I have many projects on my list including a night vision sasquatch radar, an electromagnetic chupakabra cage, a high velocity, aerial, weighted Mothman net and super heated, instant grill cheese sandwhich maker.

https://www.amazon.com/Images-SI-Uranium-Ore/dp/B000796XXM/ref=cm_lmf_tit_1

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 05:55 AM

AgingAmerican (12,958 posts)

13. His platform would be cheaper than what we have now

 

Denmark/Scandinavia have as much or more disposable income than we do. That's because they don't go broke paying medical bill and tuition fees.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 01:16 PM

hill2016 (1,772 posts)

20. then who is going

 

to pay for the medical bill and tuition fees?

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 06:05 AM

Enrique (27,461 posts)

14. he is very upfront about raising taxes

George Stephanopoulos challenged him on it and he very frankly said, yes everyone's taxes will need to go up.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 06:14 AM

Star Member treestar (80,791 posts)

15. True he should at least address those issues

There was a discussion about free college in Germany and it came out that only the top students get in.

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Response to treestar (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 06:34 AM

AgingAmerican (12,958 posts)

16. Entry requirements come from the institution

 

They are not government mandated.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #16)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 01:19 PM

hill2016 (1,772 posts)

22. so

 

what about people who go to community college. Do they get free college too?

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 07:52 PM

AgingAmerican (12,958 posts)

25. Community colleges are public

 

Do you even know how it works? If you cannot get into a university from HS, you go to community college, earn an AA or an AS transfer degree then transfer to a university. I didn't graduate from the 7th grade, but ended up getting a GED, an AS from a CC, then I transferred to the University and got a bachelors degree. That's how it works.

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Response to treestar (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 08:35 PM

GermanWatcher (61 posts)

35. College is free for students in Germany

From firsthand knowledge I can tell you that college (Universität in German) is free in Germany. There are no tuition fees other than administrative charges (usually less than 200 $ per semester).
Students from low-income families can even apply for a federal subsidy that can go up to about 750 $ a month.
This applies to everyone who has the qualification to go to Uni - a diploma called Abitur that about 40 percent od German students get at age 18 - 19.
By the way, the Getman marginal tax rate is 42 percent.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 10:31 AM

Hepburn (21,054 posts)

17. Wow, you mean it will get tighter for Middle Class wage earners getting $250K/year??



Cry me a river.

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Response to Hepburn (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 08:09 PM

Thinkingabout (30,058 posts)

29. Hillary wants FICA raised on those making $250,000 a year, Sanders wants it raised

Those making less than $250,000 a year.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 10:41 AM

Armstead (47,803 posts)

18. I have some quotes that seem to sum up your message

 

“Government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”

“We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much.”

“No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we’ll ever see on this earth!”

“Government does not tax to get the money it needs; government always finds a need for the money it gets.”

“You can’t be for big government, big taxes, and big bureaucracy and still be for the little guy.”

“The American people are not undertaxed, the government in Washington is overfed.”

“Whenever we lower the tax rates, our entire nation is better off.”

Ronald Reagan

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 10:50 AM

Star Member fleur-de-lisa (13,969 posts)

19. I know, right . . .

http://news.yahoo.com/israeli-pms-dog-bites-political-visitors-092310998.html

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's recently adopted dog Kaiya has sunk her teeth into her new position, biting two visitors at an event on Wednesday, including the husband of the deputy foreign minister.

At a candle-lighting ceremony to mark the Jewish festival of Hannukah, the 10-year-old mixed breed also took a snip at a member of parliament from Netanyahu's Likud party.

Knesset Member Sharren Haskel, a veterinary nurse, dismissed the incident, telling Army Radio it was "trivial".

more at link . . .

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 03:55 PM

Alfresco (1,698 posts)

24. A nebulous kick.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 08:09 PM

artislife (9,497 posts)

30. He has answered the first question at his rallies and more.

 

Yes, grades is what they use in Germany for example. You compete with the students from your area for seats at Uni.
The Scandinavian countries tax is higher. But then they don't have to pay for medical insurance and medical treatments not covered.


If you are really interested, go to feelthebern.org. They have created a very fun and easy to use website with tiles that will allow you to click on them and they will take you to the topic they represent.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 08:27 PM

Star Member PatrickforO (13,906 posts)

34. It blows me away that you're even advancing this argument.

We've all noticed, especially since the Bush tax cuts, that government can't cut, cut, cut business and personal income taxes and then still provide the services we depend on.

Right now, we have over $20 trillion in UNTAXED corporate profits and wealthy earner income stashed offshore. The big finance houses have 'bots that perform arbitrage in split second trades. We have billionaires paying a lower tax rate than their administrative assistant. We allow estates of up to $5 million to be transferred untaxed, and with loopholes in estate planning, it is possible to transfer the entire amount through trusts without any tax.

Now, I suspect that before this Bernie/Hillary race, you'd have been right with me here, because we on the left have been saying that trickle down economics has never, does not now and will never work. In the meantime, we've had ebola scares and massive bush fires in CA and all over the west coast, and we've found out (remember Lindsay 'we're all gonna dyah!' Graham?) that Republican cuts have made things much, much more dangerous.

Basically, Hill, we've all been saying the government needs to raise taxes to pay for services we need. We don't want to forego those services, and many of us are saying we desperately need to spend some money on the infrastructure. I suspect you have as well.

Well, in a just tax system the rich pay more, the middle incrementally less and poor very little. You know all this.

Yet, for political expediency you are using the 'he's going to raise taxes so you should fear him' argument. You're better than that, Hill. All of us are.

Now, if you'll permit, I will inject a personal note into this: I don't mind a bit paying more taxes, if paying them means that my grandkids will be able to go to college without getting into a huge hole of debt, that I will not have to worry about going broke if I get sick, and that my old age Social Security pension will be secure and will keep me from eating out of dumpsters.

See, Hill, right now, between my employer and me, we pay 18.5% of my gross for shitty, rationed healthcare from an HMO who cares far more about cutting costs than giving my family the actual treatment we need. Not only that, but for about the last decade, employees at my firm have been called into a meeting room by HR in November to be told how our copays will be going up, the services we qualify for will be going down, and our premiums will be increasing (this year for me it is 8% - my employer absorbed the other 3%). So, I already pay 'taxes' out the nose for healthcare. They are called premiums. Under Bernie's plan I'd pay the same or even a bit less for MUCH BETTER CARE.

So, ask me if I'd like (and be willing to pay higher taxes to fund) a single payer healthcare system like the United Kingdom has and I will not only say 'yes!' but I'll say HELL YES!!!

Bernie hasn't been disingenuous. He has said he'll raise taxes. But you know as well as I do, Hill, that it won't happen without lots of pressure from us and some bipartisan effort in Congress. So, to be more detailed than he has been knowing as he does how Congress works, would be disingenuous. Saying 'this is what I want to do and will try to do if elected, with all your help' doesn't seem disingenuous at all. He's even calling for a 'political revolution' which basically means the American people getting engaged in politics like they should be.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 08:42 PM

Motown_Johnny (22,308 posts)

36. Another dishonest post from a Clinton supporter, why am I not shocked?

 


Please link to where Sen. Sanders had referred to either Denmark or Scandinavia as a "Nirvana".

All he has ever said is that there are things done in those systems which we can learn from.


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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 09:16 PM

WillyT (72,631 posts)

37. Easy Peasy... We've Done It Before, Ya Know ???

 

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Fri Dec 11, 2015, 09:30 PM

Hiraeth (4,805 posts)

38. I hope you are happy now

seems you have been proven wrong

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