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Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:31 PM

I await rebuttals he said.

Well I did, but it's way down at the bottom of the string. No big deal except two posts after mine came the obligatory:

Not one person supporting hillary in this thread has refuted any of these charges.
pretty much what I expected.
if you have a quality candidate, then answer the questions. It's really that simple.

So here is the OP and my replies in their full TL;DR glory

Let’s leave the personal attacks at the door this time, hm? I’m going to offer a list of actions that, in my opinion, disqualify anyone taking them from seeking — let alone gaining — the Presidency of the United States of America, the most powerful elected office in the world. In the comments, I would like you to explain either a) how Hillary Clinton has not taken them; and/or b) how those actions don’t disqualify her from the office. In no particular order:

1) Did Hillary Clinton, or did she not, cast as one of her first votes in the Senate a vote in favour of bankruptcy “reform” that the credit card companies had spent many millions lobbying for, and which made it vastly harder to re-start one’s life after bankruptcy?

1. She voted for the bill that included this. Explain how that "disqualifies" (ooh quotation marks are nifty fun!) her from office.
In what way is life VASTLY harder? (all caps tho? not so fun)
Which bankruptcy policy changes meet the Bernie threshold of acceptability?
Can you reasonably expect sitting Senators to never horse trade on bills to get things done? Oh, sorry getting things done in the Senate is not the point, or there would be more OPs about all the laws Bernie wrote in the last 25 years.
Please clarify the objection raised by the phrase - one of her first votes - Is it better orworse than if it was her 24th vote? She gets extra blame for not controlling the schedule?


2) Did Hillary Clinton, or did she not, cast a vote in support of invading another sovereign nation (Iraq) without even reading the National Intelligence Estimates that cast significant doubt on the Administration’s casus belli?

2. Yes she did vote to authorize force in Iraq. This has always been the Bernie fans' best plum. He voted against - Can't even argue.

3) Did Hillary Clinton, or did she not, push (within the Obama Administration) for more military intervention in Libya and in Syria during her time as Secretary of State?

3. No she did not. Not if we are using "words" with "definitions"

4) Did Hillary Clinton, or did she not, give multiple speeches immediately after leaving her Cabinet Post, to Wall Street audiences and paid for by Goldman Sachs, at which her message was that bankers were being unfairly treated in the wake of the 2008 meltdown?

4. Whatevs. This is petty as hell and you know it.

5) Did Hillary Clinton, or did she not, vote for both the USA PATRIOT Act in 2001 and its reauthorisation in 2005 while in the Senate?

5. Yes she did. Does it matter to you that her constituents were hugely in favor of doing so? She did represent NY BTW. Bernie of course can reasonably expect leeway on gun control votes because after all he represents a pro gun rural state. Shit goes both ways

6) Did Hillary Clinton, or did she not, repeatedly and explicitly support Israel’s de facto apartheid policies against Palestinians while still a Senator?

6. Support for Israel is a disqualification for national office? GTF Outta here - when did that happen? Care to compare and contrast her position with Bernie for those of us who can't see the daylight between them?

7) Did Hillary Clinton, or did she not, speak in favour of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) on no fewer than 45 occasions?

7. Spoke in favor sure, 45 times? Beats me - got links? Of course being in favor of trade deals in general but deciding this one is a loser is just another symptom of . . . Something sinister?

7b) Did Hillary Clinton, or did she not, refuse to lobby Congress to block the TPP after belatedly opposing it?

7a. BTW you don't actually have to stop the lists at 10, so there is no reason for not numbering them with whole numbers. If you feel that subcategories are appropriate the accepted procedure is #, #a, #b etc.

7b. Was she asked to lobby Congress? - she did not lobby congress but unless she turned down a request to do so she did not refuse to do shit.


8) Has Hillary Clinton, or has she not, claimed to be both a progressive and a moderate in rapid succession?

8. Yes indeed she did. She is most accurately described as a center left moderate - We used to call those people Democrats.
Which when put on the political spectrum as it now exists is kind of "progressive". I realize that she used your sacred word without permission and the butt hurt is like a gaping wound in your soul - Sorry


9) Does Hillary Clinton, or does she not, support the use of the death penalty to this day, despite the many and obvious flaws in the US justice system?

9. She does. I do as well. I want better over sight and access to effective counsel, but like a large number of folks I do not want it banned.

10) Has Hillary Clinton, or has she not, spoken against lifting the cap on income taxable by FICA, calling it “a tax increase on the middle class” despite the cap already being at $117,000 p.a. income?

10. Is $118k-$200 not middle class? It's more than I make sure, even with my military pension, but it is hardly wealthy. It would in fact be an increase in payroll deductions for people who are demonstrably middle class. So the quotation marks once again do not change the actual meaning of actual "words"

These are not alleging criminal actions on Clinton’s part, nor slamming her for things she did before entering politics. They are not actions that Hillary Clinton took while subordinate to another person. These are statements of what Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton has done, herself, that have made the world worse or indicated a desire to make the world worse, or that speak to a lack of character on her part.

Break Break

I won't attempt to change anyone's mind regarding her character.

Thanks for your patience. Peace

18 replies, 1099 views

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Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 18 replies Author Time Post
Reply I await rebuttals he said. (Original post)
The Polack MSgt Dec 2015 OP
KMOD Dec 2015 #1
MohRokTah Dec 2015 #2
LineLineReply .
beerandjesus Dec 2015 #8
ibegurpard Dec 2015 #3
The Polack MSgt Dec 2015 #7
beerandjesus Dec 2015 #12
DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2015 #4
MeNMyVolt Dec 2015 #5
berni_mccoy Dec 2015 #6
beerandjesus Dec 2015 #9
MeNMyVolt Dec 2015 #11
The Polack MSgt Dec 2015 #17
MaggieD Dec 2015 #10
berni_mccoy Dec 2015 #13
MaggieD Dec 2015 #14
berni_mccoy Dec 2015 #15
MaggieD Dec 2015 #16
The Polack MSgt Dec 2015 #18

Response to The Polack MSgt (Original post)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:39 PM

1. K&R

 

That was very nice of you to take the time to respond to someone, who most likely didn't really want a response.

Peace back atcha.

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Response to The Polack MSgt (Original post)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:41 PM

2. Kicking and reccing.

 

Thanks for taking the hide risk on this.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 04:43 PM

8. .

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Response to The Polack MSgt (Original post)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:44 PM

3. any particular reason

You felt your opinions were so profound they couldn't have just been added to the OP you're addressing?

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Response to ibegurpard (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 04:10 PM

7. I did so.

But the folks who responded after I did were still saying that no one would ever respond to the OP - Even though several people had already responded.

I feel that my reasons for this making this OP were explained in the first paragraph.

I do not feel my opinions are more or less profound than any other posters here.
Strangely enough, I like to make myself heard in a political discussion on a political message board. No more or less than that.

Thanks for your reply.

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Response to ibegurpard (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:01 PM

12. Hey, let's applaud the lone Hillary supporter who's willing to engage intelligently

ibegurpard, you and I are on the same side, but I'm totally behind the OP for starting a thread that's actually pro-Hillary, and not just "Hillary crushing it in State X!" or "Bernie supporters are so mean!" or "Hillary is awesome for supporting X (which Bernie has supported since the 80s)!"

I sincerely wish there were more posters like this one!

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Response to The Polack MSgt (Original post)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:48 PM

4. Excellent job.

I would add it is astounding that the poster at Dkos demanded we react to his meanderings as if we we were slaves or trained seals.

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Response to The Polack MSgt (Original post)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:51 PM

5. K&R. Glad you reposted.

 

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Response to The Polack MSgt (Original post)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:53 PM

6. If anyone complains about the thread or alerts, I'm ok with this thread.

The poster is new and doesn't know all the rules.

My response to this rebuttal is in the original thread here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251887987#post140

I appreciate the discussion of the issues.

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Response to The Polack MSgt (Original post)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 04:51 PM

9. HUGE kudos to you for your thoughtful, substantive defense of Hillary.

Seriously. I've got some huge issues with said substance, but my #1 gripe about the Hillary crowd here is that their argument boils down to nothing but inane platitudes (e.g. "It's her turn!", mostly-unfounded criticism of Bernie and his supporters (e.g. "Bernie and his supporters are racist!", and feigning martyrdom (e.g. "Those facts you listed are just smears!".

I'm 100% behind Bernie, but given that Hillary is still way ahead in the polls, I'm desperately looking for some reason--any reason--why I should be ok with Hillary. Her supporters here make that REALLY difficult. I applaud you wholeheartedly for talking about the issues, for being willing to highlight differences of opinion, and for actually having the courage to answer some difficult questions, rather than pretending that the questions are unfair.

I look forward to reading more of your posts on here!

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Response to beerandjesus (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 04:58 PM

11. +1 to this reply.

 

Don't like the "her turn" stuff, but the rest was great.

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Response to beerandjesus (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:25 PM

17. Thanks Beerandjesus

I appreciate courtesy between people who disagree though it seems in short supply.

Re-reading the OP I feel like I over snarked a couple points and was weak in another couple. I will try to get better

I am the only Democrat that most of my coworkers know and I demand courtesy from them and give the same to them - Which to be honest really just means we talk baseball instead.

Of course I am a large white man in a mid management position - my demands are more respected than many other people's would be in the same situation.

Have a great day.

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Response to The Polack MSgt (Original post)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 04:56 PM

10. I remember the good old days...

 

When I used to waste my time responding to garbage like that. Welcome and thanks for trying. Stick around and you will soon find out that they don't want and will not read a response except as a means to attack.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:02 PM

13. Instead, now a days, you waste your time posting snark instead

We get it.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:03 PM

14. Don't try to take away my fun!

 

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:07 PM

15. Lol ok. Have your fun then.

Peace.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:08 PM

16. Peace out!

 

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 11:00 PM

18. If 50+ years have taught me anything

It's that I can (and probably will) get more cynical and jaded.

Thanks for your reply

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