“The idea of college being affordable is such a wild thought.”

[Eric J in MN]

For teens and twenty-somethings who support Bernie Sanders...

...it’s OK to think bigger than you’ve been led to believe. After the town hall, I met a GMU sophomore named Faith Huddleston Anderson in a “Feel the Bern” T-shirt. In Sanders, Huddleston Anderson hears a politician stretching the limits of what she’d ever thought possible in the lives of people like herself. “Everything he said are things that I’ve thought in my head but never said out loud because it’s such an outrageous thought,” she said. “The idea of college being affordable is such a wild thought.”

She went on, “Us just having the idea in our head of free tuition feels a lot better to reach for than just reaching for, ‘Oh, we should get some reduced prices.’ I’ve always been told college shouldn’t be this expensive. But I’ve never heard anyone say it will not be.”

https://www.yahoo.com/politics/the-bernie-revolution-hes-not-going-anywhere-100050258.html

Bernie Sanders has said that he calls himself a "socialist" because he wants to transform America, not just nibble around the edges. (He said that during the Q&A after his speech at Georgetown on democratic socialism.)

[MaggieD]

1. College kids love free stuff - more money for beer and clubs

They should try it the old fashioned way:

1. Get a degree that will result in a job instead of a degree in something "fun" but with no employment potential

2. Don't use student loans to borrow spending money - work instead

3. Work instead of seeing as a 4 year social event and party

4. Don't go to schools that charge outrageous tuition

5. Vote for Hillary - her plan is viable; Sander's plan is pie in the sky and will never happen

[UglyGreed]

2. Sounds very

republican of you, now I can see why you like HRC so much

[MaggieD]

10. What is republican about it?

Please be specific.

[UglyGreed]

14. no disrespect but

it just reminded me of type of thing one might hear on Fox News.

[MaggieD]

17. How so?

You don't think it's good advice to work hard at college at a degree that is employable?

[UglyGreed]

22. IMO Just like the young people don't

vote meme, it's not very becoming.

[MaggieD]

25. It's good practical advice

Do you think it's a good idea to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars to get a degree that has little chance of resulting in a job at graduation?

It's just good common sense.

[upaloopa]

78. On this board personal responcibility is

a Fox News idea.

[Yupster]

92. Vote for Hillary ?

Has Fox News changed this much since I stopped watching?

[azmom]

3. What a disgusting thing to say.

Shame on you.

[MaggieD]

12. What is disgusting about it?

Please be specific.

[Eric J in MN]

4. Hillary Clinton hasn't provided the details of her plan.

She says the federal government will spend $350 billion, but hasn't said that colleges can't keep raising tuition.

Bernie Sanders has introduced a bill which says that if a state university is tuition-free, then the federal gov't will provide $2 for every $1 of state spending. The federal government would spend $750 billion.

We can measure if a college is tuition-free better than if it's "debt-free" and so Sanders' plan is more solid.

Bernie Sanders' "College for All Act"
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/114/s1373/text

[MaggieD]

13. Yes she has

http://time.com/money/3990445/hillary-clinton-college-plan/

[Eric J in MN]

75. Her plan lacks an explanation of why states wouldn't keep raising tuition.

Under the details listed at that Time Magazine article for Hillary Clinton's plan, a state could raise tuition equal to the added amount in federal grants, and spend the difference on something besides lowering tuition.

That's different from Bernie Sanders' plan, which requires the states to make universities tuition-free to qualify.

[MaggieD]

76. Moving the goal posts?

Why not just admit you were wrong when you said she doesn't have a detailed plan? It's a hell of a lot more detailed than Sanders plan.

[Eric J in MN]

77. Wrong. Bernie Sanders has an actual bill which requires free tuition from participating states.

Hillary Clinton has a bunch of vague points which don't amount to a way to lower tuition.

Rising tuition + more grants = more rising tuition

[MaggieD]

80. You haven't read Sander's bill, have you?

It contains the same requirements from the States:

&quot 2) MATCHING FUNDS REQUIREMENT.—Each
16 State that receives a grant under this section shall 17 provide matching funds for a fiscal year in an 18 amount that is equal to one half the amount received 19 under this section for the fiscal year toward the cost 20 of reducing the cost of attendance at public institu-21 tions of higher education in the State."

Now you were saying?

Also, how many co-sponsors does Bernie's bill have?

[Eric J in MN]

82. I've read his bill. The difference between their plans is

Sanders: Grant money to states which offer free tuition
Clinton: Grant money to students while states can keep raising tuition

[MaggieD]

84. No, that is not her plan

And you clearly don't have a good grasp on this topic as far as I can see.

"Clinton will do this, she says, by providing incentives to states that agree to provide "no-loan tuition at four-year public colleges and universities." States that agree, under the Clinton plan, will win grants from the federal government."

Exactly the same. I have to tell you it is frustrating to see his supporters so routinely misrepresent her proposals. It happens day in and day out and it's just sickening at this point.

[Eric J in MN]

85. The phrase "free tuition" has meaning.

The phrase "no-loan tuition" is meaningless.

[MaggieD]

88. Yes, I know - socialist don't think anyone should have to work

But keep on moving the goalposts if that's your thing. One thing is clear - you are smearing her plan even though you don't seem to know a thing about it.

[MichMan]

58. What about the other 1/3

Sanders plan has the Federal Government contributing 2/3 with the States responsible for the remainder.

How does he propose that the States pay for their 1/3?

[Eric J in MN]

74. A state spending at least as much as the prior year per student

...counts as their 1/3.

[upaloopa]

79. Where does the money come from?

Nothing is free you are shifting the cost from the student to somebody else. I am not saying that is wrong but I wonder if we won't be raising the floor on credentials to get a job. An undergraduate degree becomes the new GED.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. Elementary school kids are the same!

You, me, and Newt Gingrich agree, put those kids to work, amirite?

[Art_from_Ark]

21. Ebeneezer Scrooge agrees, too!

[nashville_brook]

7. this is just sad, and an eye-opener.

[beam me up scottie]

8. Did I wander onto freerepublic by accident?

So many right wing talking points, I'm amazed you're still claiming to be a Democrat.

[MaggieD]

9. It's good advice

Pretty sure free republic wouldn't advocate for Hillary's plan. Can you respond to a post without making a personal insult? Try. You can do it if you try.

[beam me up scottie]

11. It's not a personal insult to call right wing talking points what they are.

I'm starting to think you're a poe.

[MaggieD]

15. What is right wing about it?

Work hard at a degree that makes you employable is right wing? How so? Why can't you engage in discussion without calling people names?

[beam me up scottie]

16. Here's five of them:

MaggieD (4,725 posts)

1. College kids love free stuff - more money for beer and clubs

They should try it the old fashioned way:

1. Get a degree that will result in a job instead of a degree in something "fun" but with no employment potential

2. Don't use student loans to borrow spending money - work instead

3. Work instead of seeing as a 4 year social event and party

4. Don't go to schools that charge outrageous tuition

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=871142

More please, I do love watching you out yourself.

[MaggieD]

18. So you don't think students

.... Should do any of that? Why? Please explain.

[beam me up scottie]

19. Oooo, a logical fallacy on top of the rwtp, nicely played!

[MaggieD]

24. So which do you think is not a real problem?

You don't think kids get degrees in fields that are unemployable? Here's a list:

http://thetab.com/uk/newcastle/2014/03/27/history-french-and-english-students-among-most-likely-to-be-unemployed-after-uni-6590

You don't think students should work while in college? Why?

You don't think students shouldn't take on more debt than they can every pay back?

http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/my-money/2013/01/30/how-much-student-loan-debt-is-too-much

Justify your insult. There is nothing whatsoever "strawman" about my argument.

[beam me up scottie]

28. Keep on digging dem holes! Dig it, Maggie!

[MaggieD]

30. So you can't answer?

Why? I provided links. Should we assume you think it's good for students to get a degree that won't result in a job, take on more in loans than they can ever pay back, and charge all their expenses for 4 years on a virtual credit card.

Tell us why that's a good idea. Lots of students do it, as I've shown. So give us the argument about why that's a good thing for them to do.

Don't deflect. If you want to respond then make your case. Unless you just can't.

[beam me up scottie]

31. More strawmen! I hope you have a farm, using that much straw can get expensive.

[hill2016]

32. did you

state an actual position?

[MaggieD]

36. Makes no sense

In another thread today she did the same - saying I was "lying" because she thinks rape is consensual or something. Can't even wrap my head around her posts. They make zero sense.

[MaggieD]

33. You're just deflecting

There is nothing "strawman" about giving advice that students can use to avoid such extreme debt. That and Hillary's plan would solve the problem.

You called my advice right wing talking points, but can't seem to make your case. Where does your fictional strawman thing fit in there?

[bvar22]

34. Jury Results:

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Poster needs to quit with the personal insults. Everything she doesn't agree with is not a right wing talking point.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Dec 3, 2015, 06:56 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sometimes a right wing talking point is a right wing talking point. This is Democratic Underground, where right wing talking points are not tolerated with love and kisses.

Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Enough with the silly alerts, it's getting old.

Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Because the bickering has gotten old.
Leave it where everyone can see it, and associate it with a screen name.

Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Looks like it could be the start of a good dialogue to define what each is trying to say. I have no idea what a Poe is, but I would be proud to be associated with Edgar Alan.

Looks like a 7 to Zero Shut out.

[beam me up scottie]

35. That's the 3rd alert on one of my responses to Maggie in the past hour.

I guess it will be the last for 24 hours too.

Thanks!

[bvar22]

37. Somewhere, smoke is coming out of someone's ears.

[beam me up scottie]

38. When they try to "prod" people into hides at the cave they're not always successful.

Pity.

[MaggieD]

43. I didn't force you to call me a liar

3 times in one thread. Didn't prod you into it either. In fact you initiated it, not me. Notice that even though you called me a liar 3 times I never called you a name back?

So please don't pretend anyone makes you call people names. That's just false. And I'm hardly the only one you do it to.

[beam me up scottie]

45. Where did I call you a liar? Link please!

Or do you want everyone to think you're making it up - what's the word for that again?

[MaggieD]

40. I guess other people find you offensive as well.

You get away with it because the jury system here allows Bernie supporters to call people republicans and liars, etc. I guess we'll see how long you can get away with it. Sooner or later you'll hit a real jury.

[beam me up scottie]

42. Sure, it's all a HUGH CONSPIRASEE!!1!

Sooner or later you'll hit a real jury.

Is that what happened with all of your hidden posts?

Or were those fake juries?

[MaggieD]

44. I don't have a single hidden post for calling people names

All my hides have to do with posting unflattering FACTS about Bernie. His supporters can't stand facts posted about him.

It's a fucked up system, isn't it?

[beam me up scottie]

47. Sure, you just posted that "Bernie thinks women enjoy being raped":

Enjoy your fantasies.

Speaking of fantasies, Bernie thinks women enjoy being raped. I simply cannot understand how a real liberal would vote for a pro gunner that thinks women enjoy being raped. Can you explain that to me? I just can't wrap my head around that. Especially when I think about how many women have been raped at the point of a knife or gun.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=868622

If that's what you consider a "fact" then you really are on the wrong website.

[MaggieD]

48. That's what he wrote - right?

"A woman enjoys intercourse with her man, and she fantasizes about being raped."

So yes, it's a fact.

[beam me up scottie]

51. Nope, that's not what you said, again: "Bernie thinks women enjoy being raped"

You do understand the difference between consensual sex/fantasies and rape, don't you?

she fantasizes about being raped

Bernie thinks women enjoy being raped

If you can't understand the difference then I guess logic really isn't your strong suit, is it?

[MaggieD]

52. Sure it is

Because that's what he said: "A woman enjoys intercourse with her man, and she fantasizes about being raped."

If by some other world miracle he were to get nominated you'd see that every day on the TV.

[beam me up scottie]

53. "A woman enjoys intercourse with her man" = "Bernie thinks women enjoy being raped"?

Still don't know the difference between rape and fantasy, how sad.

At least Bernie does, and that's what matters, when the Republicans come after him with the same accusations you made we'll be ready!

Thanks for giving us insight into how their minds work!

[MaggieD]

54. That's what he said

Talk to him about it.

[beam me up scottie]

55. Where in that essay did he say he "thinks women enjoy being raped"?

That's what you claimed and your post was hidden for it.

So link or slink, Maggie.

Or do you want people to think you're lying?

[MaggieD]

57. In the line I quoted

He's wrong of course, but he said it.

"A woman enjoys intercourse with her man, and she fantasizes about being raped"

[beam me up scottie]

59. Which one is in his essay about gender stereotypes?

A woman enjoys intercourse with her man, and she fantasizes about being raped

or the one you made up and was hidden by a jury:

women enjoy being raped

I'm fairly certain the guys over at youngcons were projecting they said the same thing about Bernie.

I think that says more about the person doing the projection than the writer, honestly.

[MaggieD]

60. He said it

And it was hidden because people who criticize Bernie are alert stalked. Now please stop pretending you don't know that. You do.

[beam me up scottie]

61. Post the exact quote from his essay where he said "women enjoy being raped" then.

Because right now it looks like the only person who thinks like that is you.

I sure wouldn't want to be in your head.

[MaggieD]

62. Doesn't take a genius to see it

You just don't want to face it.

"A woman enjoys intercourse with her man, and she fantasizes about being raped"

Do women fantasize about doing the dishes too? LOL!

[beam me up scottie]

63. So he never wrote it, thanks for clearing that up.

That means you're either incapable of understanding what he wrote or you're projecting since thousands of intelligent adult women read the essay and didn't come away with that impression.

I do feel sorry for you, if that helps.

[MaggieD]

64. The meaning is clear and matches what he said

"a woman enjoys intercourse with her man, and she fantasizes about being raped"

Why would a woman fantasize about something they don't like? What he said was that women enjoy the idea of being raped. I'm not sure why you have wasted hours trying to dispute that.

[beam me up scottie]

65. Only if you don't understand the different between rape and fantasies.

Which apparently you don't.

Here, let me help you with that:

rape

unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim.

fantasy or phantasy

1. imagination, especially when extravagant and unrestrained.

2. the forming of mental images, especially wondrous or strange fancies; imaginative conceptualizing.

3. a mental image, especially when unreal or fantastic; vision:
a nightmare fantasy.

4. Psychology. an imagined or conjured up sequence fulfilling a psychological need; daydream.

Does that help you understand the difference between what you wrote:

women enjoy being raped

and what Bernie wrote:

fantasizes about being raped

Because you were the one who wrote about women enjoying being raped, not Bernie.

Like I said, I wouldn't want to be in your head.

[MaggieD]

66. I understand man 'splaining

I understand presumptuous idiot men who think rape is something women want, because they think the poor dears craves to be over powered by them.

I find that mentality disgusting. You're free to support it if you like. What you aren't free to do is suggest I'm wrong because I think your viewpoint is ridiculous.

[beam me up scottie]

67. So are all of the women who understand what he wrote "man 'splaining" it as well?

Because they "think rape is something women want" too?

Why do you think the other Hillary supporters aren't joining you in your crusade?

Could it be they also realize you're only pretending to be concerned about women who support Bernie?

Because I saw through your act immediately.

Personally I think people who exploit rape to score cheap political points are disgusting.

[MaggieD]

69. I don't know any woman but you who condones it

I've actually shown it to two tentative Bernie supporters at my debate parties, both of whom were horrified. So you're unique in that regard.

And if I said how it makes me view YOU I would get a hide.

[beam me up scottie]

70. Who condone what? A 40 year old essay about gender stereotypes?

There have been dozens of posts about it here, no intelligent adult who understood the point he was making in the essay was "horrified" by it.

Maybe you just missed the threads because you were on timeouts, but you can google just like everyone else.

You're the only one playing this game right now, Maggie.

And exploiting this issue says more about your character than a 40 year old essay on gender stereotypes says about Bernie's.

[MaggieD]

71. You're condoning his remarks

You've done it 25 times tonight alone. I just don't agree with that. And frankly I have never met a woman who does condone that shit.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You're so enamoured with Bernie you simply can't admit how fucked up that essay is.

[beam me up scottie]

72. I understand the point he was making, you either don't or do and are lying about it.

You started a thread on it, where are the hundreds of outraged women who should be calling for his head right now?

You are so transparent even your fellow Hillary supporters don't want anything to do with your attempt to swift boat Bernie.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You're so enamoured with Hillary you simply can't admit how fucked up exploiting rape is.

But the rest of us do.

[MaggieD]

73. You're condoning it

There is no getting around it.

And it WILL be used against him whether you condone it or not.

I will query my fellow Hillary supporters to find out just how much they dislike me and get back to you.

Luckily I don't have to ask them what they think about you. I already know.

[reformist2]

20. Seriously? Your post crudely bashes US college-age voters for wanting what Europe already has.

[MaggieD]

26. Kids in Europe don't get free college

To get a degree in something unemployable. They also work while in school. Their living expenses aren't paid.

I don't think you understand how it works in Europe.

[Art_from_Ark]

39. College tuition is free in Germany

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32821678

College tuition is France is very affordable-- less than what I was paying at a state school 30+ years ago

http://www.alternet.org/education/looking-escape-high-cost-college-these-7-countries-will-educate-you-free

Tuition in Spain at public universities varies from 680 to 1,280 Euros per school year. The equivalent of 680 euros a year was what I was paying at a state university 30+ years ago.

http://www.studying-in-spain.com/costs-of-attending-college-in-spain/

College tuition in Denmark is free to students from the EU/EEA and Switzerland

http://studyindenmark.dk/study-options/tuition-fees-scholarships/tuition-fees-and-scholarships

College tuition in Sweden is free for EU students

http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/international/europe/sweden/

In Finland, tuition is free for EU students studying bachelor’s and master’s level programs.

http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/international/europe/finland/

[MaggieD]

41. Affordable college is a good thing

But they don't get free living expenses, and unemployable degrees.

[Art_from_Ark]

46. What are "unemployable degrees"?

My degrees were considered "unemployable", but what I learned during those years of study has helped me with my current work.

And I have known many Europeans (and Japanese) who got "unemployable degrees" (read, "humanities&quot , but they still managed to find decent work. Believe it or not, some employers actually prefer people with a well-rounded education, instead of "Fachidioten".

[MaggieD]

49. I posted a link to a list with data up thread

[bvar22]

95. I am glad I went to college back when it was about "following your bliss",

and getting an "education", and not "how much money ya going to make?"
College is a time be inspired by the best of MAN, the wonders of the universe, and the undeniable urges of the creative soul and inner self.
If I wanted to make a living, I could have gone to plumbers school.

AS it was, I wound up with a degree that some here would call "unemployable", but while studying the humanities...a strange thing happened..
I READ, and I learned about PEOPLE and how they think. -History, Literature, Biographies, Logic, Philosophy....ALL about how people think and why.

Because of this knowledge, I never had trouble in interviews which frequently went long
talking about the World instead of how many words I could type.
I never had a problem talking my way into a job. (Most of the interviewers were bored stiff) I have never held a job "in my field", but could always find a good job, and used "my field" in every job I ever had, because my field was about How People Think (or not).

Of course, when I went to college, it was possible to attend a 4 years State University (or grad school) and graduate Debt FREE if willing to work a part time job.

WE could have that again, IF we had a Political Party that represented the Working Class instead of Wall Street.

[BlueStateLib]

89. To qualify for free college in Sweden or Germany

you must have graduated from a college preparatory upper secondary school called Gymnasieskola or in Germany they call them gymnasium. At the age of 12 it is decided who goes to college, only the top 25% of the elementary school academic achievers are allowed to attend Gymnasieskola or gymnasium schools.

[Lordquinton]

50. Wonderful piece of satire

You'll give Manny a run for his money if you keep this up!

[rurallib]

68. wow - stupid me - I thought investing in the education of our children

was one of the best investments a society could make.

I guess many European and Asian countries that have low or no cost education have run into the problems you describe.

[Live and Learn]

86. Bull, we got the free or very cheap ride. College was much cheaper when we attended.

Stop the 'we got ours, to hell with you' meme.

[davidpdx]

90. Oh all those stupid lazy college students

They are an uppity bunch that leach money from the government to go to school to for no reason except to party and get drunk.

[Skwmom]

91. The cost of tuition at public schools has soared along with the cost of living while attending.

Your so called "old fashioned" way doesn't apply to the reality of today.

Your post is offensive to people struggling to afford college.

[ibegurpard]

6. It's actively opposed

By a number of the most rabid Hillary supporters on this board.

[MaggieD]

29. Rabid?

Can you make your point without insulting people?

[hill2016]

23. lol

this is the generation that marches for free college.

http://studentmarch.org/

We Demand:
Tuition-Free Public College
Cancellation of All Student Debt
A $15 Minimum Wage for All Campus Workers

Clinton's plan is sensible and achievable.

[MaggieD]

27. Exactly

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

81. What's so awful about free college?

A number of other countries (e.g., Norway, Sweden, Finland, France, Germany, Brazil, Mexico) provide it. They realize that educating their people is one of the most important benefits they can offer, and that a significant number of people buried under student loan debt would be an enormous drag on their economies. I can't think of a better investment in our future prosperity, and I'd be happy to pay higher taxes for it to happen.

[ibegurpard]

93. conservatives

Live in deathly fear that people might get something that they don't "deserve."

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

94. Yup.

Everybody who wants to got to college has to work and take out crushing loans; otherwise somebody might get free stuff they don't deserve!

[WillyT]

56. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[Eric J in MN]

96. You're welcome. NT

NT

[Douglas Carpenter]

83. Mitt Romney warned us about the Democrats and them promising "free stuff." Finally some Democrats

are listening to him and taking his message to heart!

[Live and Learn]

87. K&R nt