2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumNYT: "Bernie Sanders, Your Cool Socialist Grandpa"
link; excerpt:How is a 74-year-old self-described Democratic socialist from one of the least populous states in the country turning the Democratic primary upside down and proving an adept challenger to one of the most established candidates in modern politics?
Easy, supporters of Senator Bernie Sanders say: He represents an unyielding crusader who will restore decency to American politics. Mr. Sanders is ideologically pure at a time when everything and everyone else in Democratic Washington seems to revolve around compromise. And as this primary is proving, many Democrats (and even some Republicans) are frustrated with compromise. ... To understand how Mr. Sanders has outperformed expectations in the Democratic primary, you have to look at how hes long been outperforming expectations in Washington, where he first arrived after winning a seat in Congress in 1990.
Bernie Sanders surprises people, said Harry Jaffe, an editor at large for Washingtonian magazine, who wrote an unauthorized biography of Mr. Sanders, to be published in mid-January. If I would boil down his political career, it comes down to surprising people and exceeding expectations.
Since winning his Senate seat, Mr. Sanders has held on to it by keeping his constituents, not his colleagues, in mind.
This is a man who goes home to Vermont almost every weekend, and he famously said a number of years ago, I work in Washington, but I live in Vermont, Mr. Jaffe said.
...
Enter Mr. Sanders, an almost painfully earnest politician seemingly burdened with the ambition and moral certitude of Joan of Arc. Liberal millennials are flocking to him, their Cool Socialist Grandpa. A recent McClatchy-Marist poll found that Democratic voters ages 18 to 29 favored Mr. Sanders over Mrs. Clinton by a margin of 58 percent to 35 percent.
...
That is what seems to separate Mrs. Clinton from Mr. Sanders: a willingness to sacrifice ideological purity in order to get things done.
...
The difference between the Democrats and the Republicans is that when Republicans get power, they know how to use it, Ed Schultz, a former MSNBC host and a personal friend of Mr. Sanders, lamented. When the Democrats get power, they want to negotiate with everybody.
And would Mr. Sanders know how to wield that power, if it were given to him?
Absolutely, he said.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)The difference between them?
Not really. True, Bernie does get things done, but he isn't some 'ideologically pure' unicorn. He's just pro-human beings. Ask yourself 'Does this (overall) help or hurt regular Americans?' and you can figure out his positions on just about anything.
brooklynite
(93,873 posts)JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)retrowire
(10,345 posts)tex-wyo-dem
(3,190 posts)And realistic. He is in favor of strengthening background checks, closing the gun show loophole and limiting the types of guns and ammunition that can be acquired. But his main argument is that we have to discuss the issues and come to a direction that most Americans can agree on. To date:
1.) a horrible massacre occurs
2.) the left calls for gun control
3.) the NRA throws red meat fear to the RW that "lefties wanna take away yours guns"
4.) any discussion or progress dies almost immediately
This cycle has to stop, which Bernie has emphasized over and over.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)There are certain Hill supporters (always the same ones) who already know this...it's been addressed so many times here by so many of us, yet they keep throwing it out every time they can to try to diminish Sanders. So, why waste time arguing with them? It isn't going to stop. They have nothing else except faulty arguments.
CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)...and talking points.
I'm a very enthusiastic Sanders supporter, and I knew a bit about his gun-control stance. The poster explained it thoroughly and I was happy to see that.
You have to remember that the foundation of Hillary's campaign will be to craft erroneous taking points about Bernie. She did this to Obama in spades.
Her talking points only stick if they are not publicly rebuked.
The responses aren't for the Hillary supporters. They're to ensure that the lie-based talking points and gimmicks are exposed as the garbage they are.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)I've just given up on rebutting the same posters over and over again.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)daleanime
(17,796 posts)to someone who scoring political points with lives.
But that's just me.
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)to read the Bill of Rights as expansively as possible except the Second Amendment which must be read as narrowly as possible. The Bill of Rights is the pinnacle achievement of classical liberalism and true liberals would want the whole document to be read liberally.
Gun control is one of the defining differences between the progressive movement and the liberal movement (which are generally well aligned on most issues).
Progressivism is rooted in the belief that our social contract as embodied by our democratically elected government is the best tool for improving our society through common works projects and regulation of the marketplace to ensure justice and equity. Liberalism is grounded in the belief that the individual achieves his or her highest achievement when our equality and liberty and freedom is preserved and promoted.
Putting a limit on the people's rights is inherently in conflict with the liberal core concept, and that is true regardless of whether you are seeking to limit the right to free speech, the right to pursue your own religious beliefs, or the right to bear arms. Putting a limit on the right to bear arms because it is a regulation for the public good falls well within America's progressivism but it is not a liberal idea.
Autumn
(44,762 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)LWolf
(46,179 posts)And would Mr. Sanders know how to wield that power, if it were given to him?
Absolutely, he said.
merrily
(45,251 posts)may even have lost his MSNBC slot over it. But, is he a personal friend?
Why, merrily, why do you ask?
Well, the opinion a professional political analyst, which Schultz is, has of Sanders may or may not carry weight. But, the opinion of a personal friend? Meh. You expect personal friends to be big fans.
That is what seems to separate Mrs. Clinton from Mr. Sanders: a willingness to sacrifice ideological purity in order to get things done.
Bullshit. Sanders got more substantive things done in the Senate than Hillary. His veterans' bill with McCain became a case study at Brookings Institute in negotiating across the aisle. Sanders also voted for ACA, while favoring single payer--and slid in an amendment about community health care. Hillary got bills passed noting the anniversary of the American Revolution, re-naming a post office, etc.
Even Obama, in his relatively short time in the US Senate, got a bill passed limiting nukes--and she pulled this same "Unlike my opponent, I get things done" stuff on him too.
I am beyond tired of the media.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)No one cares if you're a "cool socialist grandpa" (hilarious), he has almost no policy proposals and passed 3 bills in 25 years. That's not cool.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)That one isn't going to stick so you might as well try to come up with the next new lie. I'm sure that Millennials favoring Sanders 58% to 35% will have you working overtime to try and find something that sticks.
tex-wyo-dem
(3,190 posts)Clinton supports should use against Sanders supporters. Don't even go there.
gordyfl
(598 posts)I'm a progressive, but I'm a progressive who likes to get things done, Hillary Clinton said at the first Democratic debate, in response to a question from moderator Anderson Cooper about whether she defines herself as a moderate or a progressive.
The implication was that progressive Bernie Sanders is too far to the left to accomplish anythingall of his ideas are pie-in-the-sky.
The problem with this narrative is that it is completely false.
Not only has Sanders gotten a lot more things done than Clinton did in her own short legislative career, he's actually one of the most effective members of Congress, passing bills, both big and small, that have reshaped American policy on key issues like poverty, the environment and health care.
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-gets-it-done-sanders-record-pushing-through-major-reforms-will-surprise-you
George II
(67,782 posts)....and dozens of other amendments to each bill. And most were also passed by voice votes, indicative of their "importance" (or lack thereof).
The fact is, as a legislator, Sanders does NOT "get it done".
gordyfl
(598 posts)When the Affordable Care Act was in danger of not having the votes to pass, Sanders used his leverage to win enough funding for free health treatment for 10 million Americans through Community Health Centers.
This gutsy moveholding out until the funds were put into the billhas even Republican members of Congress requesting the funds, which have helped millions of Americans who otherwise would not have access.
Did you read the rest of the list?...
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-gets-it-done-sanders-record-pushing-through-major-reforms-will-surprise-you
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)"A recent McClatchy-Marist poll found that Democratic voters ages 18 to 29 favored Mr. Sanders over Mrs. Clinton by a margin of 58 percent to 35 percent."
That's up by almost double digits since last time they were polled.
We could be heading for 2010 / 2014 voter appeal for the Democratic party, if we nominate the 1 % candidate.
erronis
(14,955 posts)If their voices aren't heard and given credence by the current political empires, then their voices and energy will be working to get rid of the ruling parties and apparatchiks.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Scuba
(53,475 posts)Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Clinton is doing everything to signal she doesn't care about anyone under 35. So they will do everything to make sure she doesn't achieve a position where her lack of interest matters. If that means 2010 / 2014 voter turn-out repeated in the 2016 GE, Clinton only has herself to blame.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Never mind that there is exactly as much time between then and now as there was between the election of 1928 and then.
I'm sure there are relevant lessons to be learned from James K. Polk, too. Fifty Four Forty or Fight!
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)sure seems like it, at least.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)I agree, the attitude DWS and her coronation committee have toward the Millennials is enough to make the Democratic Party heading for an aging electorate for the next generation. Kind of like how the GOP is currently garnering votes. So when the GOP almost literally dies of in most of the U.S.A, the Democratic Party will focus exclusively on the next generation to die off.
And that leaves an impossibly large void to the left of the American political centre.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)doesn't offer convincing policy prescriptions that get to the heart of our country's problems.
Renew Deal
(81,802 posts)roguevalley
(40,656 posts)but I don't see a list of achievements there beyond trying to co-op bosnia as combat experience.
Full disclosure: my nephew was there in real combat experience and yes, I am still pissed.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)as described in this recent NYT article (not an op-ed), which describes how he was "More Pragmatist than Socialist" as Mayor of Burlington:
Even though he talks revolution, hes an incrementalist, said Richard Sugarman, a longtime friend and a professor of religion at the University of Vermont. He knows that things will only be changed little by little, one by one. Thats why hes been effective.
Critics on the right said their socialist mayor gave the city a bad image, wasting time on foreign affairs, including trips to Nicaragua and the Soviet Union. At the same time, critics on the left said he compromised too much with business interests and did not go far enough in pursuing socialist ideals. Over the span of his mayoralty, the number of families living in poverty grew to 798 in 1990 from 563 in 1980, an increase of 42 percent.
...
While many on the left applauded his efforts on housing, they were more critical of Mr. Sanderss stance during the yearslong, convoluted battle over development of the citys spectacular waterfront along Lake Champlain.
Mr. Sanders wanted to open up the lakefront, long marred by a decrepit rail yard, for public use. Eventually, that is what happened. But for a time he backed a private proposal to build a complex of high-end condos, hotel and commercial space that critics said would block views of the lake and limit public access.
More deal maker than ideologue, Mr. Sanders later worked for a compromise that scaled back the proposal and added public amenities like green space. He said the compromise, supported by most of the aldermen, was the best he could get and that the development would expand the citys tax base, bringing millions of dollars into city coffers.
He then championed a $6 million bond issue to pay for the infrastructure and public amenities.
But environmentalists and others accused Mr. Sanders of selling out to business interests. The dispute led to a highly contentious campaign over the bond issue.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/26/us/politics/as-mayor-bernie-sanders-was-more-pragmatic-than-socialist.html
He will negotiate, compromise, and be a pragmatist to incrementally advance progressive ideals, just like Obama has done. And that's the thing that bugs me: he talks big (single-payer, free tuition), but he's smart enough and experienced enough to know he will have to whittle down those ideas to pretty much what we have now, with a few incremental enhancements--ACA with some improvements, the community college tuition plans with perhaps a tiny bit of extension. Because that's the world we live in. The big talk garners votes among the naive, but he knows the reality. I'd rather have a plain speaker who will level with the people in their election promises.
George II
(67,782 posts)First, he hasn't been mayor of Burlington for almost three decades, and Burlington Vermont is not the United States of America.
Burlington has a population of less than 40,000 people, almost 95% of whom were white at the time.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)And the voters of all political stripes who kept re-electing him certainly thought he was qualified to get things done.
It may not be a national office, but it differes only in scale. The same qualities arre required to be a successful president as mayor or governor.
George II
(67,782 posts)...as residents of Burlington Vermont, with facilities in roughly 200 locations around the world.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)And her success at it was very mixed to say the least.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)and they're paying her back now
frazzled
(18,402 posts)People are touting a March on Washington that was more than 50 years ago ... but you're saying not 30 years ago? And yes, when he was mayor, Burlington had a population of 38,000--less than any of the 50 wards that comprise my city. So he was kind of like an alderman.
All I was trying to say was that the idea that Sanders is a good choice because he wouldn't compromise like other presidents ... is more than likely NOT true.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Playinghardball
(11,665 posts)taught_me_patience
(5,477 posts)He always seems so angry and complains about 1%ers all the time. That's not a personality I'd like to hang with.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)When I hear him speak he seems very negative.
HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)Being an independent in congress for 20 years has to be exhausting.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)roguevalley
(40,656 posts)I love you, Rowland Ward Bishop, card carrying socialist. my hero
Jackilope
(819 posts)Not to worry, a warm comforting voice telling you the TPP is now the "Gold Standard" will help soften the blow from the damage it does.
senz
(11,945 posts)PosterChild
(1,307 posts)..... "Bernie Sanders, Your Cool Socialist Grandpa" He recoiled in disgust . I don't think youngster are going to go for that sort of patronizing slogan.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)...why are they trying to say he's old. Ringo is 75 and Hillary is almost as old. I think my daughter looks up to Bernie as a prophet.
PosterChild
(1,307 posts).... I assume it's his supporters who are caracterizing him as "your cool socialist grandpa" which is a big mistake. Telling a kid that is a great way to turn them off and just hammers the age issue, which, fair or not is being used against him.
beltanefauve
(1,784 posts)the author who came up with that one. I also think it smacks of thinly - veiled condescension.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)At least someone at the NYC is nice
moobu2
(4,822 posts)most all of his supporters will support Hillary Clinton.
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)difference between Democrats who support a candidate based on ideology and those who want to be on the side of the establishment favorite.
Uncle Joe
(58,112 posts)Thanks for the thread, Attorney in Texas.